Gandalf the Grey ends up in Westeros instead of Middle-earth, what happens?
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Honestly? I feel like until if/when he heard talk of activity beyond the wall, he'd be more Gandalf circa the Hobbit - a seemingly carefree wanderer that roams the countryside, entertaining children and telling them fanciful tales. He'd be an even greater oddity in Westeros than he ever was in Middle-Earth, but a lot of folk would dismiss him as little more than a folk tale until they meet personally. Gandalf, IIRC, doesn't especially involve himself in the political affairs of Men unless it potentially affects the conflict with Sauron/the 'greater good'. So he'd stick out the War of the Five Kings in the same way he did pretty much everything Gondor ever did; it would be when word first starts to spread of weird things happening beyond the wall he'd make his first move, most likely to go up and inspect the situation for himself. What happens from there is determined by to what extent he's managed to build up a reputation with the Night's Watch, and therefore might trust his reports of what's going on (assuming he makes it back alive sooner than anyone in actual canon has because, well, he's Gandalf).
Not to make a fun thread Uber nerdy serious or anything. But based on the universe, would his arrival signal an even greater return of magic to the world or would his magic be nerfed because magic has JUST started to return with the hatching of dragons ? (Firewyrms!)
If he dies, does he go back to the Undying Lands? If so, that's what he should do, because Westeros is a lost cause. It's a miserable place filled with miserable people, like Applebee's on a Friday night.
I think he would investigate whether the Lord of Light and shadow babies was a new manifistation of Sauron (and check on Melisandre and Stannis), assuming this might be his mission from Eru. I also believe he would interfere with Dany's conquest in Essos seeing her as a conqueror and her dragons as a menance. Eventually he would form a council to fight the white walkers, with other magic users like The 3 eyed Raven, Jaqen, The Reeds, The Maggy the Frog, Mazz Durr and other sorcerers from Essos. He would try to find unlikely heroes to help him like Mycah and Hotpie.
Honestly, mankind in Westetos is far more gone than mankind in Middle Earth, so I could see him seeing the Night King and the white walkers as a necessary evil up until a certain point.
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I would say that his main power was his ability to influence the minds of men. All the Maiar had unique characteristics, Melian had her girdle, Sauron his shape-shifting, Saruman his voice, Radagast and influence over nature, Eonwë and his martial prowess etc,
Otherwise, Gandalf as a Maia unleashed would have all the powers available to him when we played a part in creating the Earth that he came from.
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OP
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A Peter Jackson invention and not what Tolkien intended.
You jest, but I do think Gandalf would be genuinely frustrated by shit like that while he's trying to rally allies for facing the White Walkers. Like, he'd probably convince the Starks early in, but accept that he'd can't stop them from their more political war; only to then scream at the sky when they're killed off so easily.
Would his powers flow from Iluvatar and be tied to Arda/Ea? If he got kicked to whatever planet GoT is on, wouldn't he be cut off from the "magic" of his universe and be powerless?
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I'd go with Arda and the Westeros planet been in the same universe (Eä), thus Gandalf retains his powers.
It's hard to answer because magic in LOTR is very abstract I think. If Gandalf can use his power directly and to its fullest potential and is not bound to an "influencer" like role, I think he is way beyond anything in Westeros.
He fucks everyone. In all senses of the word.
This shot, oh boy.
He would scare the dragons away.
This shot, oh boy.
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What if Smaug was sleeping in a cave near Winterfell, gets awaken by the battle and is really, really pissed at both sides?
Gandalf could rule over Westeros if he were so inclined, but he's not Saruman. I think he would prefer to do what he did in Middle Earth, and nudge the course of history so that victory favors the side that values life and culture.
Let's say Gandalf stumbles through a one-way portal to Westeros, and he knows he's going to be there for a while. I imagine he'd start by traveling the continent in disguise to gather information about the general character of Westeros: the history of the place, a sense of the common people, Westeros's influential factions and figures, potential allies, and the destabilizing and destructive forces he'll have to contend with later. Gandalf would certainly investigate the White Walkers, the Children of the Forest, the Three-Eyed Raven, and any rumors of dragons or magic.
As part of this preparation, Gandalf would try to consult with elder beings like the Three-Eyed Raven, and establish a network of maesters, informants, and connected people who might even include Varys.
With his initial investigations done and a flow of information secured, I think Gandalf would get to work on his long game: leading, in an advisory capacity, an alliance of the least worst houses to victory against the White Walkers, and ensuring that a not-crazy and generally qualified person eventually claims the Iron Throne.
I guess he could also shoot lasers at a zombie ice dragon and duel the Night King with fire magic and stuff.
Let's say Gandalf stumbles through a one-way portal to Westeros, and he knows he's going to be there for a while. I imagine he'd start by traveling the continent in disguise to gather information about the general character of Westeros: the history of the place, a sense of the common people, Westeros's influential factions and figures, potential allies, and the destabilizing and destructive forces he'll have to contend with later. Gandalf would certainly investigate the White Walkers, the Children of the Forest, the Three-Eyed Raven, and any rumors of dragons or magic.
As part of this preparation, Gandalf would try to consult with elder beings like the Three-Eyed Raven, and establish a network of maesters, informants, and connected people who might even include Varys.
With his initial investigations done and a flow of information secured, I think Gandalf would get to work on his long game: leading, in an advisory capacity, an alliance of the least worst houses to victory against the White Walkers, and ensuring that a not-crazy and generally qualified person eventually claims the Iron Throne.
I guess he could also shoot lasers at a zombie ice dragon and duel the Night King with fire magic and stuff.
Hey Edmond. To answer this question meaningfully, we have to re-examine what Illuvatar sent Gandalf to do on Middle Earth in the first place. Now, perhaps you could help me since your the LotR expert, but my understanding is that his job was the curtail the influence of Sauron and, my extension, Morgoth. On a technical level, he is supposed to allow human failings to proceed on their own terms, since humans are the creation of Illuvatar and thus them screwing up was just things playing out how they were meant to. Morgoth imposing his own designs, that was the issue.
So, in order to necessitate Gandalf's existance in Westeros, that atleast implies that Morgoth has either touched that realm as well, or that the supernatural forces of that world are a sort Morgoth equivalent. It's hard to tell who that is as the divinities of Westeros are somewhat vague, so for the sake of argument, lets assume it's the white walkers. That means it's his job to stop them.
He essentially has the same job that the Nights watch then, obstensively, which is to convince the people in power to act against the White Walkers. So at that point, it's mostly a matter of choice between trying to convince King Robert himself or else a House that is powerful enough and power hungry enough to listen to this. I actually think his job would be rather easier in the world of Westeros in this regard because he would have a monopoly on magic until Daenerys' dragons are reborn. All he would really need to do is flash some of his pizzaz and any house he chose would be clamoring for his employment as a Maester.
What I actually find more interesting is what would happen to his character. In Tolkien's world, Gandalf has friends in the form of hobbits and various people, and his enemies are easily idealogically defined. He had to deal with the betrayal of Saruman and the downfall of Denethor, but on the whole, he has formed genuine bonds of friendship with hobbits, with Aragorn, with the elves and the dwarves. With Middle Earth, Gandalf knows who he's fighting for and who he's fighting against and why.
In Westeros, we still don't actually know what the White Walkers even want to get by killing humanity (well, maybe the show watchers do, but not in the books). They're just zombie monsters, horrifying but unknowable. But because they've been relegated to bedtime stories, the people ofWesteros have largely turned their competing interests against each other. The politics of Middle Earth weren't happiness and sunshine, but they certainly weren't as cut-throat and malicious as they are in Westeros. So, the real question here is, what would Gandalf have to do in order to ingratiate himself to people like these? Sure, the Houses would be clamoring on top of each other to get his employment, but once he chose a house to aid, how would he then make alliances in the others? Some houses, like the Starks and the Tyrells are more chill and could allow genuine companionship to grow, but how would he make friends with the Lanisters?
He would either have to use his power to influence people more than he ever had to in Middle Earth, where he was able to serve as an advisor and aid to kings instead of outright commanding them or else he'd have to play the Game of Thrones and start pulling genuinely underhanded tactics. And the real question would become how does the only Wizard in the world keep his soul when everyone around him has long since lost it.
In fact, I think the reason he got along with Hobbits so well is because they were genuinely seperate from the political BS that he had to deal with when he's on Valar business or having to deal with Gondor and Rohan and the Elven-Dwarf relations. When he wanted to kick back and just chill with his friends, he went to the shire and talked with the fat little people whose biggest political tensions were that Otho and Lobelia were kind of assholes. One of the largest appeals of the Shire is that it's utterly hidden away from the rest of the world. The Hobbits grounded, relaxed, and humanized him. Who would play that role in Westeros, where the politics were far pettier, far more ruthless, and utterly inescapable?
And if the answer is no one, then how does Gandalf not end up turning into another Saruman? Especially since diminishment doesn't apply. Tolkien made sure to craft his metaphysics so that evil is consistently punished by the character becoming lesser when straying from Illuvatar's intentions. Morgoth became weaker, Sauron became a shadow of himself, Smeagol became Gollum, and by the end of the series, Saruman was reduced from a grander standing than Gandalf himself to being beaten and driven out by Hobbits he held in contempt.
In Westeros, this doesn't happen, or it doesn't happen BECAUSE you make an evil choice. If Gandalf did become corrupt and selfish, and took power....that doesn't come with any metaphysical cost. He might have set backs or be overthrown via machinations of rival factions, but in all likelihood, it would just mean that what it says on the box: That Gandalf takes power and maybe becomes a worse person, but his standing and power would not likely be diminished like Saruman's was. Saruman's ambitions would instead become his reality.
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OP
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As always, a well thought out and reasoned analysis Veelk. Thank you.
To consider your key points:
One would assume that an underlying corruption akin to the concept of 'Morgoth's Ring' would be applicable to the planet that Westeros is part of. Perhaps as a byproduct of the White Walkers or a malign divinity not touched upon.
One key thing to remember and a key asset in Gandalf's arsenal; his ability to change his raiment. He wouldn't be restrained as he was in Middle-earth, and would be able to change form depending on which House he was dealing with. He would thus be able to manipulate/fool the peoples of Westeros into believing that there were multiple powerful wizard/sage beings and influence matters in this manner.
Would he turn as Saruman did? Without the corrupting influence of the One, and the inherent discord of Melkor in the very fabric of the Earth, and been a spirit chosen specifically for his great wisdom and humility, it's hard to see him succumbing to the cutthroat politics prevalent in Westeros.
Although, Tolkien did warn of a self-righteous Gandalf ruling and subverting the idea of 'good'.
Gandalf entered the first castle he came across, and was invited to sit down with Lord Caswell and explain his arrival in Westeros. But first they ate.
Starting with a thick soup of barley and venison. Salads of sweetgrass and spinach and plums, sprinkled with crushed nuts. Snails in honey and garlic. Sweetbreads and pigeon pie and baked apples fragrant with cinnamon and lemon cakes frosted in sugar. A creamy chestnut soup, crusty hot bread, and greens dressed with apples and pine nuts. Then came lamprey pie, honeyed ham, buttered carrots, white beans and bacon, and roast swan stuffed with mushrooms and oysters. The beer was brown, the bread black, the stew a creamy white. The girl served it in a trencher hollowed out of a stale loaf. It was thick with leeks, carrots, barley, and turnips white and yellow, along with clams and chunks of cod and crabmeat, swimming in a stock of heavy cream and butter. It was the sort of stew that warmed a man right down to his bones, just the thing for a wet, cold night. Rack of lamb baked in a crust of garlic and herbs, garnished with sprigs of mint, and surrounded by mashed yellow turnips swimming in butter. Steaming joints of meat and thick black sausages and Dothraki blood pies, and later fruits and sweetgrass stews and delicate pastries from the kitchens of Pentos. A broth of crab and monkfish, and cold egg lime soup as well. Then came quails in honey, a saddle of lamb, goose livers drowned in wine, buttered parsnips, and suckling pig. The smell of garlic and butter had Gandalf's mouth watering. Some part of him wanted those mushrooms, even knowing what they were. He was not brave enough to take cold steel to his own belly, but a bite of mushroom would not be so hard. There were loaves of crusty bread still warm from the ovens, crocks of fresh-churned butter, honey from the septry's hives, and a thick stew of crabs, mussels, and at least three different kinds of fish. He sampled sweetcorn fritters and hot oatbread baked with bits of date, apple, and orange, and gnawed on the rib of a wild boar, accompanied by crabs boiled in fiery eastern spices, trenchers filled with chunks of chopped mutton stewed in almond milk with carrots, raisins, and onions, and fish tarts fresh from the ovens, served so hot they burned the fingers. Gandalf suffered through it with a double helping of honey-ginger partridge and several cups of wine. Peacocks were served in their plumage, roasted whole and stuffed with dates. Serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. The sweet cakes had been soaked with honey, rich and heavy on the tongue. Pears poached in wine, and went on to tiny savory fish rolled in salt and cooked crisp, and capons stuffed with onions and mushrooms. There were great loaves of brown bread, mounds of turnips and sweetcorn and pease, immense hams and roast geese and trenchers dripping full of venison stewed with beer and barley. For the sweet, Lord Caswell's servants brought down trays of pastries from his castle kitchens, cream swans and spun-sugar unicorns, lemon cakes in the shape of roses, spiced honey biscuits and blackberry tarts, apple crisps and wheels of buttery cheese. Black stout and yellow beer and wines red and gold and purple, brought up from the warm south on fat-bottomed ships. cod cakes and winter squash, hills of neeps and great round wheels of cheese, on smoking slabs of mutton and beef ribs charred almost black, and lastly on three great wedding pies, as wide across as wagon wheels, their flaky crusts stuffed to bursting with carrots, onions, turnips, parsnips, mushrooms, and chunks of seasoned pork swimming in a savory brown gravy.
After dinner was finished, Gandalf shared his weed and they sat around talking late into the night.
Starting with a thick soup of barley and venison. Salads of sweetgrass and spinach and plums, sprinkled with crushed nuts. Snails in honey and garlic. Sweetbreads and pigeon pie and baked apples fragrant with cinnamon and lemon cakes frosted in sugar. A creamy chestnut soup, crusty hot bread, and greens dressed with apples and pine nuts. Then came lamprey pie, honeyed ham, buttered carrots, white beans and bacon, and roast swan stuffed with mushrooms and oysters. The beer was brown, the bread black, the stew a creamy white. The girl served it in a trencher hollowed out of a stale loaf. It was thick with leeks, carrots, barley, and turnips white and yellow, along with clams and chunks of cod and crabmeat, swimming in a stock of heavy cream and butter. It was the sort of stew that warmed a man right down to his bones, just the thing for a wet, cold night. Rack of lamb baked in a crust of garlic and herbs, garnished with sprigs of mint, and surrounded by mashed yellow turnips swimming in butter. Steaming joints of meat and thick black sausages and Dothraki blood pies, and later fruits and sweetgrass stews and delicate pastries from the kitchens of Pentos. A broth of crab and monkfish, and cold egg lime soup as well. Then came quails in honey, a saddle of lamb, goose livers drowned in wine, buttered parsnips, and suckling pig. The smell of garlic and butter had Gandalf's mouth watering. Some part of him wanted those mushrooms, even knowing what they were. He was not brave enough to take cold steel to his own belly, but a bite of mushroom would not be so hard. There were loaves of crusty bread still warm from the ovens, crocks of fresh-churned butter, honey from the septry's hives, and a thick stew of crabs, mussels, and at least three different kinds of fish. He sampled sweetcorn fritters and hot oatbread baked with bits of date, apple, and orange, and gnawed on the rib of a wild boar, accompanied by crabs boiled in fiery eastern spices, trenchers filled with chunks of chopped mutton stewed in almond milk with carrots, raisins, and onions, and fish tarts fresh from the ovens, served so hot they burned the fingers. Gandalf suffered through it with a double helping of honey-ginger partridge and several cups of wine. Peacocks were served in their plumage, roasted whole and stuffed with dates. Serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. The sweet cakes had been soaked with honey, rich and heavy on the tongue. Pears poached in wine, and went on to tiny savory fish rolled in salt and cooked crisp, and capons stuffed with onions and mushrooms. There were great loaves of brown bread, mounds of turnips and sweetcorn and pease, immense hams and roast geese and trenchers dripping full of venison stewed with beer and barley. For the sweet, Lord Caswell's servants brought down trays of pastries from his castle kitchens, cream swans and spun-sugar unicorns, lemon cakes in the shape of roses, spiced honey biscuits and blackberry tarts, apple crisps and wheels of buttery cheese. Black stout and yellow beer and wines red and gold and purple, brought up from the warm south on fat-bottomed ships. cod cakes and winter squash, hills of neeps and great round wheels of cheese, on smoking slabs of mutton and beef ribs charred almost black, and lastly on three great wedding pies, as wide across as wagon wheels, their flaky crusts stuffed to bursting with carrots, onions, turnips, parsnips, mushrooms, and chunks of seasoned pork swimming in a savory brown gravy.
After dinner was finished, Gandalf shared his weed and they sat around talking late into the night.
The most powerful magic in Westeros is limited. Think of how much prep the lady of light takes to do her magic. The night king basically can only raise the dead in his area. From what I know of Gandalf he has wide magically ability and once he knows how to cast something he can do it pretty quickly. Rain dragonglass spikes onto the undead army from a distance, I'm guessing he could do that.
This is an excellent point, since Gandalf is a magical being, I forgot he was primarily in danger of being affected by other evil magic things. When I said corruption, I was thinking more in terms of just normal, mundane corruption.
I think there was a topic back at the old place at one point where there was a poll where people asked if they preferred Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White, and Grey was overwhelmingly favored because he was friendly and personable compared to the more stand-offish White. I remember you making a note that while Gandalf the White was an empowerment over Grey, he did lose a bit of his humanity. He still had good relations with people, obviously, but he wasn't able to jovially connect with the hobbits like he used to be able to and their relationship didn't seem quite as warm. Gandalf the Grey was their old friend, while the White was this higher being - Kind and benevolent, but distant and not on their level.
So when I was thinking about Gandalf corruption in Westeros, it was more in those terms. Gandalf may not have to deal with the discord of Melkor in Westeros, but if he doesn't find genuine friendship and love like he did in Middle Earth, with the Hobbits in particular, what would that do to him or his priorities? I'm sure he would still take his duty seriously, but it's undeniable that he was equally driven by the fact that he loved the people of middle earth and wanted to protect them.
Rather than magically corrupting influence, what if he doesn't come to love the people of Westeros?
If Gandalf felt that he had to follow the commands of his maker even in Westeros then he'd be something similar to what he was in LotR; a guide/advisor/ally.
If Gandalf said 'fuck it', left his human shape behind and didn't hold back he could be/do whatever he wanted. No one would be able to stand against him.
If Gandalf said 'fuck it', left his human shape behind and didn't hold back he could be/do whatever he wanted. No one would be able to stand against him.
This in a nutshell.
GRRM actually wrote some fanfiction about what would happen if the Wheel of Time characters ended up in Westeros and dueled Jamie Lannister. What you learn is that Westeros (at least in his fanfic) has a very limited pool of magic. And, once that's used up then you can't cast anymore spells. So, Gandalf would be super weak in Westeros.
I don't think that logic transfers.
In Wheel of Time, their magic specifically works as a channeling sort of magic. Meaning that magic users in WoT don't necessarily have magic themselves, but are capable of manipulating the magic that is in the world. That's why their spell casting is called weaving or channeling: they aren't creating something wholesale, they are taking inert universal energy and crafting it in a particular way. So, if they were in a universe where those pools of magic are limited, then they have nothing to work with.
Tolkien's magic doesn't necessarily work this way, atleast in regards to Gandalf. Gandalf doesn't use the magic that's in a world separate from him, he is the magic. It comes from his own being or else it comes from Illuvatar himself, so, at best, it depends if he maintains his connection to his god. But I think it's more implied that he is fully seperate from Illuvatar as long as he has a material form, so he is basically magically independent until he dies and has to go back to the higher plane of existance where Illuvatar resides.