German government will push for a European federation

[oddjobs]

It's going to be a pretty damn hard sell to any of the richer countries at this time, especially as more or less everyone is wrestling internally with the pressure caused by right-wing populism. The positives of any such development haven't been all that well detailed so far + given how EU bureaucracy works would be put under the looking glass immediately anyway => I don't see much success any time soon.

Barring some major world-shaping event e.g. war, catastrophic environmental disaster hitting the rich countries etc.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Ain't no way France is going for this so it's dead in the water for the foreseeable future.

 

[Keuja]

Europe is too diverse for a central government to govern effectively. People won't accept it neither.

 

[Deleted member 2752]

Mandatory

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Mandatory? You think the new German government is part of some Illuminati plot or what?

 

[ChrisP8Three]

Yeah this is just nonsense and reflects your own USA= bad thinking.
A Federal Europe has been the dream of many Europeans since WW2. Germany is a federation. Federal governments aren't controversial.

Good for the EU if they can pull it off, they need a stronger central authority to counter the influence of China and Russia who can infiltrate one of the weaker states and stall EU agenda.

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I think you have completely misunderstood what i posted, so please read again. At no point did i suggest USA = bad
I said nobody should copy us - nobody should copy the UK
And asked if this system that Europe are proposing is more akin to a USA style Federal government with states? or if there was a similar example
I wish the UK had stayed in the EU and pushed for ever closer integration, we are European and all the crap arguments against Europe, are well crap and even if they were, you affect change from within to make it better, not run away and hope it fails.

So I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to criticise my thinking and assume i thought the USA was bad? I'm effectively praising the US system. Maybe try not being so defensive and read a post before launching into an attack.

The US government structure with just a few simple changes would be pretty solid. It's just because we are deadlocked due to the issues we can't change it. Namely, removing the Senate or replacing it with more population weighted representation would be a huge step. Popular vote for President. 2nd choice voting system like Australia. Revise the Supreme Court to have way more justices, elected per state. Create a 4th branch of Government that's a council of Scientists that are elected by independent bodies with rigorous peer review for things like climate change, NASA, public health. Make it an immediately enforced federal crime to receive bribes, set backs, donations, etc - immediately go to jail. I think if we had those, we'd have a pretty good system. But we don't, so it's fucked.

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thank you for answering my question, that actually sounds amazing and what i wanted for the UK within a European united states

 

[Deleted member 10445]

Are we sure this is true?
I haven't heard anything like this here in Germany and it doesn't sound like the FDP at all. Like, the complete opposite.

 

[dude]

I don't see it happening, and I'm not even sure it would be a good thing if it happened.

 

[SofNascimento]

Make latim the official language and that might work.

 

[Deleted member 2752]

Are we sure this is true?
I haven't heard anything like this here in Germany and it doesn't sound like the FDP at all. Like, the complete opposite.

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If you look at the actual text (page 131 of the coalition treaty) it's not as definitive as OP makes it seem:

The conference should result in a constitutional convention and lead to the further development of a federal European state, which is organized in a decentralized manner, also in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, and has the Charter of Fundamental Rights as its basis.

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Subsidiarity is an important word here and well, this really isn't that different than what Germany's position has been, it's just that they want an actual conference to move forward with it. Which, I'm sure they are aware, probably won't happen.

 

[Batatina]

I think it would a great idea, but the execution might leave a lot of smaller countries unrepresented, so it's all about how that system works!.

 

[GiantEnemyCrab]

That German romanticism again.

 

[Isee]

Of course it is a dead in the water idea currently and not achievable in our lifetimes.

You have to understand this as an open letter from the new german government: Germany is still standing behind the idea of the EU and sees a lot of reason for a reformation (*wink*, *wink* at Poland) that might even set a foundation for something bigger in the far future.

Why is such a "letter" important? Because, after 16 consecutive years of conservative rule under one chancellor a new left sided government is taking over. Such a drastic change in governments often leads to a new foreign policy and there was no communicating about that topic during the german electional campaigns. Germany was busy discussing social changes, climate change, covid, the Afghanistan disaster and how to rebuild their industry CO2 emission free. The catastrophic state of the EU, Poland, Turkey and many other topics were not brought up.

Most of you will say, "obviously germany is still standing behind the EU". Yes, and it is still a good idea to make your stance public.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Europe is too diverse for a central government to govern effectively. People won't accept it neither.

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Bar languages, Europe is arguably less diverse than the US.
The vast majority of Europe's current problems stem from a lack of institutional ability to effectively govern in matters spanning European nations. National governments can't effectively govern an economically united but institutionally divided Europe.
The only possible solution to this problem is further integration.

 

[coldcrush]

Mandatory? You think the new German government is part of some Illuminati plot or what?

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words like Illuminati get banded around to try and make a joke of power-hungry megalomaniacs. No I don't think there is an illuminati plot but I do think that like most things, creating a federation will be exploited by rich people, governments for their own ideals agendas and gains. This is historically what happens.
Also hes wearing a sith robe which is both funny and probably a red flag

 

[Deleted member 2752]

words like Illuminati get banded around to try and make a joke of power-hungry megalomaniacs. No I don't think there is an illuminati plot but I do think that like most things, creating a federation will be exploited by rich people, governments for their own ideals agendas and gains. This is historically what happens.
Also hes wearing a sith robe which is both funny and probably a red flag

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Listen, I can't stand that guy, but the robe was given to him by a university where he got an honorary degree.

 

[coldcrush]

Listen, I can't stand that guy, but the robe was given to him by a university where he got an honorary degree.

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haha I actually didn't know that, interesting!
Although am still convinced he's a megalomaniac and he graduated from Evil university inc

 

[Pikachu Statue]

what is it about this concept that actually appeals to people? Is it just the aesthetic of 'togetherness' or something more economic?

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Scale makes communal policies more efficient. Which is good for left-wingers and fascists.

Basically it all comes down to what type of governments you are combining. If you have three countries that all have politics you agree with, you should want them to combine to press your advantage.

 

[Keuja]

Bar languages, Europe is arguably less diverse than the US.
The vast majority of Europe's current problems stem from a lack of institutional ability to effectively govern in matters spanning European nations. National governments can't effectively govern an economically united but institutionally divided Europe.
The only possible solution to this problem is further integration.

Click to shrink...

Less diverse than US ? The language barrier is huge as is the cultural and political divide. We are talking about different countries with wildly different traditions, cultural references, history, food, education systems, well, pretty much everything... Not even comparable to the superficial differences between US states. It's like saying a group formed of Japan, Korea and China are arguably less diverse than the US.

 

[Pikachu Statue]

language [...] traditions, cultural references, [...] food

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Those are the sorts of things that make life worth living, but those are all superficial differences when you're talking about political structures. More superficial than the difference in beliefs between a typical member of a former Union state and a typical member of a former Confederate state.

 

[Burbank]

While we're at it, let's get some EU mecha divisions in time for 2141 to defend the Straight of Gibraltar.

 

[Burbank]

Those are the sorts of things that make life worth living, but those are all superficial differences when you're talking about political structures. More superficial than the difference in beliefs between a typical member of a former Union state and a typical member of a former Confederate state.

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¿The US states are more politically diverse (compared to each other) than the various countries of EU? Bold claim.

 

[Keuja]

Those are the sorts of things that make life worth living, but those are all superficial differences when you're talking about political structures. More superficial than the difference in beliefs between a typical member of a former Union state and a typical member of a former Confederate state.

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But even politically it is more diverse and extreme. Every country would have dozens of parties from the far left to far right and all the shades in between within a much wider spectrum than the main Democrats vs republican debate which would be considered center right and right in most european countries (although the mapping is not perfect). I mean there are actual communist parties and fascist parties that people vote for in not insignificant numbers... And some countries have parliamentary systems, others have presidential system... you even have monarchies. And then you have further internal local regulations specific to regions/province/states within each countries.

 

[Pikachu Statue]

¿The US states are more politically diverse (compared to each other) than the various countries of EU? Bold claim.

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It's a vague concept so I'm sure it depends how you measure it. I'm just saying that the things that might make European countries obviously more distinct than US states are "cheating" when we are talking about a European Federation.

Every country would have dozens of parties from the far left to far right and all the shades in between within a much wider spectrum than the main Democrats vs republican debate which would be considered center right and right in most european countries

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Well that's because of the game theory of the US system. If there was no cost to voting third-party, it would look a lot more comparable. So that is quite a big structural difference, but not a difference within people's minds.

 

[Burbank]

Setting to one side the fact this would be virtually impossible to achieve... what is it about this concept that actually appeals to people? Is it just the aesthetic of 'togetherness' or something more economic? Because we don't need to invest power in a central continental government for either of these things. Same with security.

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Survival. Europe in 2070 with a weak America (possible), strong China (very likely) and greatly destabilized world (guarantee) will need strength in unity, and a unified border and army to not get screwed over. Germany sees this and has abandoned austerity talk in favour of unity, border forces and integration (even federalisation).

 

[NSESN]

Also I wish for an unified South/Latin America but i doubt the US would ever let a country with such influence in their backyard

 

[Remmy2112]

Also I wish for an unified South/Latin America but i doubt the US would ever let a country with such influence in their backyard

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If it's led by a right-wing strongman "taking it to the commies" we might. We've done it plenty of times before.

 

[Arilian]

Less diverse than US ? The language barrier is huge as is the cultural and political divide.

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US diversity is usually overestimated: it's a middle of the pack country in most scales measuring diversity (except religious diversity).

The usual suspects lead the list of culturally diverse countries: Chad, Cameroon, Nigeria, Togo and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. These and other African countries typically rank high on any diversity index because of their multitude of tribal groups and languages. The only western country to break into the top 20 most diverse is Canada. The United States ranks near the middle, slightly more diverse than Russia but slightly less diverse than Spain.

[...]

A caution: Cultural diversity is a different concept than ethnic diversity. As a result, a map of the world reflecting ethnic diversity looks somewhat different than the one based on Goren's cultural diversity measure that combines language and ethnicity profiles of a country.

The Harvard Institute of Economic Research developed a map similar to the on posted above based on Goren's findings.

A comparison of the Harvard and Goren maps show that the most diverse countries in the world are found in Africa. Both maps also suggest that the United States falls near the middle, while Canada and Mexico are more diverse than the US.

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The most (and least) culturally diverse countries in the world

A new study of cultural diversity and economic development measures the amount of cultural diversity in each of more than 180 countries.

www.pewresearch.org

So, are the US more diverse than some European countries ? Sure. Than every one of them ? No. Than the EU as a whole ? Maybe. I don't know because sadly, I never found information regarding the EU as the whole, but I wouldn't use the consequence of the American Civil War as an argument to prove the diversity of the US.

 

[Nooblet]

Less diverse than US ? The language barrier is huge as is the cultural and political divide. We are talking about different countries with wildly different traditions, cultural references, history, food, education systems, well, pretty much everything... Not even comparable to the superficial differences between US states. It's like saying a group formed of Japan, Korea and China are arguably less diverse than the US.

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India has a higher diversity in culture, race, religion, food, infrastructure, language, politics and education than Europe by several orders of magnitude, has a greater disparity between the rich and poor parts, as well as higher population....and yet it's a federal republic. Technically India should not really be able to exist as one country, but its circumstances and history led to that. Europe similarly has its shared history and circumstances that it can certainly draw from.

 

[JCH!]

I would love for this to happen but there's no way I see people voting for it.

Most likely outcome would be a huge rise of far right anti European nationalism and that works be an absolute disaster.

 

[Maquiladora]

This will never happen.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Seems like a good idea with Russia and China vying for more power and U.S. being as volatile as it is.

 

[dapperbandit]

I would love for this to happen but there's no way I see people voting for it.

Most likely outcome would be a huge rise of far right anti European nationalism and that works be an absolute disaster.

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Agreed, nationalists would have a field day with it, it would be an enormous own goal for social Democrats across the country to so easily paint themselves as authoritarians trampling the sovereignty and independence of European nations.

 

[Arilian]

Agreed, nationalists would have a field day with it, it would be an enormous own goal for social Democrats across the country to so easily paint themselves as authoritarians trampling the sovereignty and independence of European nations.

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Accompanied by a push toward more and better workers protections, a better funding of healthcare, social security, it may have a chance.

 

[Dr. Mario]

Those are the sorts of things that make life worth living, but those are all superficial differences when you're talking about political structures. More superficial than the difference in beliefs between a typical member of a former Union state and a typical member of a former Confederate state.

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You think the political differences in belief between someone from Bulgaria and Sweden is more superficial than a northern and southern US state?

 

[Deleted member 28564]

I believe the vast majority of citizens living in Europe identify as Europeans as opposed to whichever nationality, or are more likely to emphasise their European identity above their national identity. If this remains constant or improves, I see no reason why Europe couldn't form a stable federation over the next several decades. Of course, things change. There may be twists and turns.

 

[supercommodore]

I believe the vast majority of citizens living in Europe identify as Europeans as opposed to whichever nationality, or are more likely to emphasise their European identity above their national identity. If this remains constant or improves, I see no reason why Europe couldn't form a stable federation over the next several decades. Of course, things change. There may be twists and turns.

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This isn't really the case.

Bar languages, Europe is arguably less diverse than the US.

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what lol

 

[Deleted member 28564]

This isn't really the case.

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Oh, oops. Nationality and European. Still favourable for a federal experiment, right? As this would mean that they associate the two identities as a whole.

 

[supercommodore]

Oh, oops. Nationality and European. Still favourable for a federal experiment, right? As this would mean that they associate the two identities as a whole.

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Yes, if you look at the graph then those who identify as European as either their primary, secondary or only identity make up the majority in a lot of countries (except UK, Cyprus and Greece).

However, I think it's tricky to be definitive without a breakdown of the people inside the "Nationality and European" group. They identify as nationality first and European second, but we don't know if they feel strongly enough about the latter to be pro federation.

But overall I would guess that countries where the "nationality only" is less than maybe 30-35% would probably be able to make pro federation moves. A complete guess on my part though.

Another thing from the graph that is clear that people very much don't want to do away with nationality altogether.

 

[TheAuldTriangle]

Im pro EU but absolutely NOT pro Euro Federation. Fuck that shit.

 

[Deleted member 28564]

Yes, if you look at the graph then those who identify as European as either their primary, secondary or only identity make up the majority in a lot of countries (except UK, Cyprus and Greece).

However, I think it's tricky to be definitive without a breakdown of the people inside the "Nationality and European" group. They identify as nationality first and European second, but we don't know if they feel strongly enough about the latter to be pro federation.

But overall I would guess that countries where the "nationality only" is less than maybe 30-35% would probably be able to make pro federation moves. A complete guess on my part though.

Another thing from the graph that is clear that people very much don't want to do away with nationality altogether.

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Good point! These identities may not necessarily intersect to a significant degree, and, as you say, it would still imply that nationality is more important than not as the nationality + nationality/European identity exceeds the nationality/European + European identity. Might also be helpful if we had comparative figures over the years and decades.

 

[Kyougar]

This isn't really the case.

what lol

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Only 3 nations don't view themselves as majorly European in this graph.
The UK, which is not in the union anymore
Greece, which has real grievances with the EU
and Cyprus, which is part Greek (see Greece) and Turkish (don't see themselves as belonging to Europe)

Anything else views themselves as European. Doesn't matter if Nation+Europe, Europe + nation, or just Europe.
Even as a hardcore European who dreams of a Federal EU nation, I am still a German and will still be a German when the EU becomes a nation. As Bavarians are still Bavarians, and Saxons are still Saxons in Germany (both were states/kingdoms that were heavily independent and everyone would have said that they won't accept a unified Germany).


That something is difficult and therefore should never be attempted is a very late 20th- and now 21st-century American view.
Just look at Universal Healthcare, public transport, gun-control, sustainable/non-car-dependable suburbia, changing the electoral college and voting to a more democratic and fair system, prison reform, de-militarization of the police, real training of the police, customer protection and curbing big tech.

The US of today would have never even attempted to make the Interstate System a reality.

 

[onkelsander]

Oh, oops. Nationality and European. Still favourable for a federal experiment, right? As this would mean that they associate the two identities as a whole.

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Where do you live? Don't know if you are american, but on this forum it seems alot of americans treat people in Europe as one homogeneous group... Which boggles the mind to be honest.... People in Europe are in most cases proud of their country, and although they are positive to the EU, they'd rather their country stay independent. If you had done any traveling in Europe you'll have experienced this...

I live in Norway, and would never want a European federation....

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Less diverse than US ? The language barrier is huge as is the cultural and political divide. We are talking about different countries with wildly different traditions, cultural references, history, food, education systems, well, pretty much everything... Not even comparable to the superficial differences between US states. It's like saying a group formed of Japan, Korea and China are arguably less diverse than the US.

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Politically speaking I'd say the delta between right and left in Europe is significantly smaller than in the US
Common ground between Europeans is bigger than common ground between Americans.
Yet, the EU never really emphasized democratic and liberal values on an institutional level much, it has mainly been an economic union serving the interests of capital, as it was built in the high times of neoliberalism.
This is, if you ask me, the single most divisive issue within the EU because it ignores common interests in favor of private profit interests(based on the false assumption that a "rising tide lifts all boats").
After 4 decades this has not only not worked but also left the EU with the image of a deficiently democratic institution, despite the fact that the amplitude in political leanings within the EU is remarkably tiny.

There are only a few outliers like Hungary and more recently Poland that run ideologically counter to the rest of the EU, but as I said, I don't think that expansion should come before integration. So it might be worthwhile to kick members out who aren't willing to stand by democratic and humanitarian values, in order to allow for closer collaboration between the remaining members.

 

[Kyougar]

Where do you live? Don't know if you are american, but on this forum it seems alot of americans treat people in Europe as one homogeneous group... Which boggles the mind to be honest.... People in Europe are in most cases proud of their country, and although they are positive to the EU, they'd rather their country stay independent. If you had done any traveling in Europe you'll have experienced this...

I live in Norway, and would never want a European federation....

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Norway isn't in the EU...
So don't tell us in the EU how pro-national or pro-EU we are.
The graph speaks for itself.

 

[DarthMasta]

If Europe is to deal as a unit with the big, enormous issues we have at hand, then it makes sense to move towards more federalization, although I'm not sure a USE would be a good idea, but that's so far into the future, I won't be around to see it.

If instead we try and deal with these issues as individual countries, then, we probably already have more federalization than we should. I'm however doubtful that we can deal with most of these problems as a bunch of small to middling countries, in a world of gigantic countries that are as technologically developed as Europe.

Not that I think these pushes mean much in the real world, more of a declaration of intent, when push comes to shove, Europe integrates as a last resort and the first instinct is still "me first", just look at how Covid went at the beginning.

 

[onkelsander]

Norway isn't in the EU...
So don't tell us in the EU how pro-national or pro-EU we are.
The graph speaks for itself.

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Are we talking about EU or Europe....? Last time I checked Norway was still in Europe..... The post you quoted didnt specify, it only stated "citizens living in Europe identify as Europeans as opposed to whichever nationality, or are more likely to emphasise their European identity above their national identity".....Hence my question, and as a European, I beg to differ...... My point still stands... I never mentioned EU...

 

[Kyougar]

Are we talking about EU or Europe....? Last time I checked Norway was still in Europe..... The post you quoted didnt specify, it only stated "citizens living in Europe identify as Europeans as opposed to whichever nationality, or are more likely to emphasise their European identity above their national identity".....Hence my question, and as a European, I beg to differ...... My point still stands... I never mentioned EU...

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We are talking about a specific scenario here: The unification of the EU. It is implied that we talk about EU members.

 

[Deleted member 28564]

Where do you live? Don't know if you are american, but on this forum it seems alot of americans treat people in Europe as one homogeneous group... Which boggles the mind to be honest.... People in Europe are in most cases proud of their country, and although they are positive to the EU, they'd rather their country stay independent. If you had done any traveling in Europe you'll have experienced this...

I live in Norway, and would never want a European federation....

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I hypothesized that Europeans would be more open to a federation where they identify as Europeans, as it would be impractical to form a federation without a unifying identity. The hypothesis relying on the effect of globalisation. The EU itself is probably an indication of this, given that some negotiations occur between the EU and outside parties in place of negotiations between single nation states. In other words, the negotiating power of nations are limited in favour of the collective -- this limitation being consented to. France and Germany testing the waters also implies that greater integration is desired in Europe. Political parties typically try to represent the will of the population, so we can safely assume that France and Germany are not taking steps that wholly conflict with the views of its citizens. Whether this would apply to the entire continent is obviously yet to be seen. Europe is not an homogeneous group presently, but this may begin to change over the next several decades.

As for myself, I don't care about nationality or culture at all and I have no loyalty to any country. A stronger union between countries, where this union is to the benefit of the greatest share of the participating parties, suits me perfectly.

 

[Arilian]

Are we talking about EU or Europe....? Last time I checked Norway was still in Europe..... The post you quoted didnt specify, it only stated "citizens living in Europe identify as Europeans as opposed to whichever nationality, or are more likely to emphasise their European identity above their national identity".....Hence my question, and as a European, I beg to differ...... My point still stands... I never mentioned EU...

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Norway is nowhere to be seen on the graph the person you answered to was commenting.

 

[Irminsul]

Politically speaking I'd say the delta between right and left in Europe is significantly smaller than in the US

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What? I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. There are actual fascist and communist parties in European national parliaments (as in, self-described and proud of it).

What is possibly true, though, is that there's a larger centre in Europe in the sense that fewer people subscribe to fringe ideas than in the US. Maybe. COVID and all it brought upon us makes me want to question this belief.