GI.biz: Tim Schafer on the impact of subscription models and judging the MS acquisition

AHA-Lambda · Aug 24, 2021

Game Pass:

That's part of why Schafer feels Double Fine is a good match for Microsoft today. Even though the Xbox maker dropped the original Psychonauts project in 2004, Schafer says the types of games the company specializes in make more sense under the modern Microsoft's business model.

"I think the value proposition now is what we can contribute to the Game Pass subscription service," Schafer says. "I think everything is moving in some form or another to subscriptions. That's just a relationship with players which I think is really great for Double Fine, where we want to do something new and original and surprising, which means there might be a higher barrier of entry for players who don't know what this is. And by lowering that barrier financially where it's not a matter of buying one $70 game over another and it's more about the time it takes to download them because they're all up there on Game Pass, I think that's a huge way for Double Fine games to find their audiences faster."

Schafer acknowledges that some people have concerns how subscription services erode ownership or how they might build up barriers to entry for developers and turn services into yet another gatekeeper determining which developers get access to an audience, but he sounds convinced subscriptions are taking over.

"I don't really feel like there's much of a choice about these things," Schafer says. "The way things are going is not something I feel like I have control over. You look at what happened with streaming in other media and it's just unstoppable. Even as a consumer, I went through a move recently and had all these boxes of DVDs and CDs and was like, 'Why do I own all these things?' So even as a consumer, I'm part of that move to subscription services. It just fits more of what I want."

MS Acquisition:

"We've been given so much creative freedom now," Schafer says. "Nobody has probed Psychonauts to second guess our decisions or anything like that. We've been trusted to handle the creative side completely, but we can opt-in to all these resources, like having it tested for accessibility and mental health checks. We had the resources but were left creatively to our own devices. And that's been great, and Microsoft has lived up to their word as far as what they said before the acquisition."

While the Microsoft acquisition appears to be working out to his liking so far, Schafer has a couple of metrics he'll use to ultimately determine whether or not the deal was a good one.
"The two things for me are the quality of the games we put out and the happiness of the team," Schafer says. "If in five years we're making really great creative games and we still have a lot of our team hanging out and happy to be working at Double Fine, that's my main metric. And so far, I think we're shipping a really good game and the team's really happy and proud of it."

It's an interesting interview and those are just snippets of course. Particularly interesting to see his thoughts on the impact of game pass

Inside the mind of Tim Schafer

Psychonauts 2 is set for release on Wednesday, which means that Double Fine Productions' very first game will be receiv…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Lock if old.

YaBish · Aug 24, 2021

That's awesome that he thinks Double Fine is in a great spot right now. Reviews for Psychonauts 2 certainly suggest so.

Zyae · Aug 24, 2021

doubling down on Microsoft letting them have autonomy and his thoughts on gamepass are essentially why Sony should and will respond to gamepass sooner than later.

christocolus · Aug 24, 2021

Really great interview. so happy for Tim and the devs at DF. I can see the studio expanding soon.

Thanks for posting OP.

Aether · Aug 24, 2021

but we can opt-in to all these resources, like having it tested for accessibility and mental health checks

Thats awesome, good of microsoft

NLCPRESIDENT · Aug 24, 2021

Yup. Double Fine with money will be a great thing for the industry.

Raigor · Aug 24, 2021

"The two things for me are the quality of the games we put out and the happiness of the team," Schafer says. "If in five years we're making really great creative games and we still have a lot of our team hanging out and happy to be working at Double Fine, that's my main metric. And so far, I think we're shipping a really good game and the team's really happy and proud of it."

I'm pretty everyone at Obsidian, NT, Compulsion Games, InXile and Undead Labs thinks exactly lke this.

As long ad they make good games with no pressure of shutting down the studio due to lack of funding or firing people they are all set.

Iron Eddie · Aug 24, 2021

Zyae said:
doubling down on Microsoft letting them have autonomy and his thoughts on gamepass are essentially why Sony should and will respond to gamepass sooner than later.

Why can't we have both and not an either or? I don't think we want to take away ownership of games either, you can still buy Psychonauts 2, it's just that on Xbox/PC Game Pass you have more options and while that would be great on PS5 Sony is doing fine what they are doing too. No need for everyone to pivot because one did.

Vinc · Aug 24, 2021

I think he's spot on. I'm way more likely to check out less conventional games that I'm not absolutely sure I'll fall in love with on Game Pass than I was in the traditional marketplace. I discovered Psychonauts 1 on Game Pass and absolutely adored it, and now I'm super excited for 2 tomorrow.

Zyae · Aug 24, 2021

Walken said:
Why can't we have both and not an either or? I don't think we want to take away ownership of games either, you can still buy Psychonauts 2, it's just that on Xbox/PC Game Pass you have more options and while that would be great on PS5 Sony is doing fine what they are doing too. No need for everyone to pivot because one did.

im commenting on his quote in the OP that essentially says subscription services in everything is inevitable

Outtrigger888 · Aug 24, 2021

Pretty awesome to see double fine go from potentially closing its doors due to funding to releasing one of the best games this year. Happy for Tim and the team over there.

Firefly · Aug 24, 2021

"The two things for me are the quality of the games we put out and the happiness of the team," Schafer says. "If in five years we're making really great creative games and we still have a lot of our team hanging out and happy to be working at Double Fine, that's my main metric. And so far, I think we're shipping a really good game and the team's really happy and proud of it."

This is great to hear. Hopefully it all works out in the future.

Montresor · Aug 24, 2021

Meet the new Microsoft. Definitely not the same as the old Microsoft.

It is remarkable seeing what a positive change has undergone with Microsoft's first-party. This would have been unthinkable in early 2018. An independent creator like Double Fine being treated well by Microsoft? And with Microsoft's backing, receiving time and money to polish the game, releasing it as an unbelievably unique and high quality game like Psychonauts 2, to an 89 OpenCritic rating?

I can't wait to see the likes of Deathloop, Starfield, Hellblade, Fable. It's definitely interesting to see how much their first-party has improved since 2018.

It's not just about buying good talent or IPs. It's about being a good steward in the video game industry. And I think Microsoft has shown they're a good steward, so far, with Double Fine.

kubev · Aug 24, 2021

Aether said:
Thats awesome, good of microsoft

Agreed. It's nice to see stuff like that in there, though I suppose I wish it wasn't strictly opt-in.

Deleted member 93062 · Aug 24, 2021

That's just a relationship with players which I think is really great for Double Fine, where we want to do something new and original and surprising, which means there might be a higher barrier of entry for players who don't know what this is. And by lowering that barrier financially where it's not a matter of buying one $70 game over another and it's more about the time it takes to download them because they're all up there on Game Pass, I think that's a huge way for Double Fine games to find their audiences faster."

Not having the pressure that your game needs to live up to $70 probably takes a lot of unnecessary fluff to the game and allows them to really do what they want to do especially for a studio like DF.

Deleted member 10737 · Aug 24, 2021

good stuff, and i think he's right about subscription services. it's the future whether people like it or not. you can be against it but it being the dominant way people experience games is inevitable. at some point you're gonna be like the people who still buy films and shows and music instead of getting them as part of a subscription service, a very small minority.

Soap · Aug 24, 2021

Double Fine was a purchase I was okay with given the size of the team and how they were clearly struggling for resources despite making awesome games. I am very curious was Double Fine can do with MS money,

Raigor · Aug 24, 2021

"We've been given so much creative freedom now," Schafer says. "Nobody has probed Psychonauts to second guess our decisions or anything like that. We've been trusted to handle the creative side completely, but we can opt-in to all these resources, like having it tested for accessibility and mental health checks. We had the resources but were left creatively to our own devices. And that's been great, and Microsoft has lived up to their word as far as what they said before the acquisition."

Good guy Matt Booty.

Now, show the goods from the other acquisitions.

| TrusT | · Aug 24, 2021

Great to see Double Fine in a good place. Creative studios like this deserve a stable platform to work from.

Brrandon · Aug 24, 2021

Raigor said:
Now, show the goods from the other acquisitions.

Just takes time, doesnt help that most of the other aquisitions were already nearing the end of projects when they were aquired.

mindsale · Aug 24, 2021

Just keep Double Fine doing whatever the hell they want as long as Tim wants to do it and I'm happy as a consumer.

Iron Eddie · Aug 24, 2021

Zyae said:
im commenting on his quote in the OP that essentially says subscription services in everything is inevitable

I get that but I'm not sure how soon to expect it. It will likely be many years still before Sony puts its big titles day one on a service like this.

Gestault · Aug 24, 2021

I love how he gives credit where it's due in terms of MS living up to their promises, but is still making the point to keep an eye on his own standards for how it's playing out longer-term.

Deleted member 17184 · Aug 24, 2021

"All of this has been in some ways looking back on comfortable things," Schafer acknowledges. "And it's been rewarding. I really enjoyed doing those remasters, I loved making an adventure game, and I loved making Psychonauts 2. But I think the team and I are really excited about doing something completely new that will be completely surprising to people."

Looking forward to Excel: The Game.

Fonst · Aug 24, 2021

Glad he is happy and making games he wants to make.

Side question, wasn't Psychonauts 2 largely made before the acquisition? It was announced back in 2015 and they were picked up in 2019. So it feels like the game was largely done besides re-adding in boss fights and optimizing for Series X. I'd find it hard to believe a company might change a lot of a nearly finished game after acquiring it.

Prine · Aug 24, 2021

Fonst said:
Glad he is happy and making games he wants to make.

Side question, wasn't Psychonauts 2 largely made before the acquisition? It was announced back in 2015 and they were picked up in 2019. So it feels like the game was largely done besides re-adding in boss fights and optimizing for Series X. I'd find it hard to believe a company might change a lot of a nearly finished game after acquiring it.

No. Games that are mostly done don't release over 2 years later. It's not just boss fights, if you watch DF Dev diaries they mention spending time on detailing their environment was a luxury after the acquisition.

ghostcrew · Aug 24, 2021

Double Fine are happy and Psychonauts 2 will be great for Game Pass. One of the highest rated games of the year (1% off being the highest) and a well loved IP. Tons of people will make the decision whether to buy the game at £54.99 or spend £7.99 a month subbing to Game Pass to play it. And either is fine, no options have been removed from anybody. More people will play it and Double Fine are presumably more secure financially than theyve ever been.

It's a positive story all round.

Cyclonesweep · Aug 24, 2021

Raigor said:
I'm pretty everyone at Obsidian, NT, Compulsion Games, InXile and Undead Labs thinks exactly lke this.

As long ad they make good games with no pressure of shutting down the studio due to lack of funding or firing people they are all set.

Honestly the games will be better for it. So many weird baffling design choices in games are often due to lack of funding, pressure for deadlines etc. Look at Obsidian and how much cut content there was in New Vegas and KOTOR 2 due to funding and deadlines etc. Give good studios the needed resources and the time and support and you will get something great.

digitalrelic · Aug 24, 2021

Tim Schafer gives off such jolly vibes. Great interview!

Aether · Aug 24, 2021

kubev said:
Agreed. It's nice to see stuff like that in there, though I suppose I wish it wasn't strictly opt-in.

Opt in means if they want to.
Forcing them makes no sense.
I mean, shure, tests for accecibility would be great if it was default, but the option to just do it, and have teams specialiced for that alreads lowers the barrier for doing it. It still needs coordination with the testing teams,
so it is extra work and resources that the studio maybe cant spare at the moment.
Keep it easy and hassle free and studio will use it, especially when they get used to it.

Cyclonesweep · Aug 24, 2021

Fonst said:
Glad he is happy and making games he wants to make.

Side question, wasn't Psychonauts 2 largely made before the acquisition? It was announced back in 2015 and they were picked up in 2019. So it feels like the game was largely done besides re-adding in boss fights and optimizing for Series X. I'd find it hard to believe a company might change a lot of a nearly finished game after acquiring it.

I mean the game would be drastically different without the boss fights. The game would also not run as well or have to have more cut due to budget constraints. The final product has a ton to do with the additional funding and support. Without it, the game would of been lesser.

kimbo99 · Aug 24, 2021

Zyae said:
doubling down on Microsoft letting them have autonomy and his thoughts on gamepass are essentially why Sony should and will respond to gamepass sooner than later.

Don't think so. Sony seems to be fine with their approach, all this with increasing their next gen pricing. I think both models work, for both companies.

Deleted member 8468 · Aug 24, 2021

Schafer has a couple of metrics he'll use to ultimately determine whether or not the deal was a good one.
"The two things for me are the quality of the games we put out and the happiness of the team," Schafer says. "If in five years we're making really great creative games and we still have a lot of our team hanging out and happy to be working at Double Fine, that's my main metric. And so far, I think we're shipping a really good game and the team's really happy and proud of it."

Tim Schafer is too good for the video game industry.

Gowans · Aug 24, 2021

There was a great quote by one of the guys at Hollow Ponds I heard the other day on them wanting to keep their studio small.

"We want to make the game we want to make, not a game to justify its price point or to deliver enough revenue to support a larger number of staff at the studio"

Something like that, it really struck a cord on why some games are defined by their environment or how much they need to earn.

From what Tim is saying it's stripped all away.

Also didn't this also mean they could create the game they wanted instead of cutting levels, boss fights etc. that could have been on the cards in another timeline.

Budi · Aug 24, 2021

The bit about DF being good match for Xbox because of Gamepass is so true. People often harp on about how gamepass pushes developers to just do gaas. But nah, variety is important for something like gamepass. I'm not going to sub to gamepass to play just one game, I'll sub for all the good shit, which there is plenty.

On a side note, love you Tim.

Ze_Shoopuf · Aug 24, 2021

Do we know yet how devs get paid on GamePass?

I'm buying P2 to play on my PS5, but I will happily download it on GamePass if it gives DF some revenue….

Zyae · Aug 24, 2021

Ze_Shoopuf said:
Do we know yet how devs get paid on GamePass?

I'm buying P2 to play on my PS5, but I will happily download it on GamePass if it gives DF some revenue….

depends on the game, but its a first party game now so they'll be rewarded for any revenue im sure.

TripleBee · Aug 24, 2021

Ze_Shoopuf said:
Do we know yet how devs get paid on GamePass?

I'm buying P2 to play on my PS5, but I will happily download it on GamePass if it gives DF some revenue….

Well their a first party studio - so they all get salaries from Microsoft. Maybe there's some bonuses - but Microsoft isn't paying them to put it on game pass, and DF doesn't get money from game sales. It goes to Microsoft.

arsene_P5 · Aug 24, 2021

"We've been given so much creative freedom now," Schafer says. "Nobody has probed Psychonauts to second guess our decisions or anything like that. We've been trusted to handle the creative side completely, but we can opt-in to all these resources, like having it tested for accessibility and mental health checks. We had the resources but were left creatively to our own devices. And that's been great, and Microsoft has lived up to their word as far as what they said before the acquisition."

This put a smile on my face while reading for two reasons.

I am just happy for him and the team, even though I don't know them personally. Being acquired can be stressful and worrying. But with MS ensuring they got all the creative freedom, while having the backing of a huge company, this seems to be the best of two worlds kinda thing for them.
It absolutely shows how far Xbox and even Microsoft as a whole have come under Spencer and Nadella respectively. I don't think the old regime would've allowed this and interfered with a lot of things.

Soap NickTavish · Aug 24, 2021

Glad their experience has been positive and hopefully leads to more exposure for Psychonauts 2.

Agent Icebeezy · Aug 24, 2021

Tim is echoing what I've read from Brian Fargo about Microsoft.

Raigor · Aug 24, 2021

Ze_Shoopuf said:
Do we know yet how devs get paid on GamePass?

I'm buying P2 to play on my PS5, but I will happily download it on GamePass if it gives DF some revenue….

It's a first party title. They don't get to take % revenue like with a third party studio, MS bankrolls the whole studio paying salaries and other operative costs and they might have some bonuses based on how the game performs but the revenue from sales goes to MS.

metal · Aug 24, 2021

His part about having to decide between all these different $70 games really nails it. I try a lot of different games now that the cost isn't a significant barrier of entry.

Just this past week I tried out 12 Minutes. Would never have spent money on that because I was only mildly interested in it and have other things to play. But since it's on gamepass I tried it out.

Yahsper · Aug 24, 2021

Ze_Shoopuf said:
Do we know yet how devs get paid on GamePass?

I'm buying P2 to play on my PS5, but I will happily download it on GamePass if it gives DF some revenue….

They're owned by MS so...no need for MS to share revenue with themselves.

Fonst · Aug 24, 2021

Prine said:
No. Games that are mostly done don't release over 2 years later. It's not just boss fights, if you watch DF Dev diaries they mention spending time on detailing their environment was a luxury after the acquisition.

Well one of those years was a pandemic year which at least half of it was figuring out how to do things. I also didn't mean to imply they only did boss fights since every part of the team is constantly working on stuff. "oh, you saying we are adding back bosses and making it shine on Series X? That means we have more time to make the this level look better, etc"

Deleted member 93062 · Aug 24, 2021

"There was a period at the end of Psychonauts 2 where we had all hands on deck to finish the game, but we're definitely going back to multiple projects afterward," Schafer says. "Until it happens again? Who knows? We don't have any rules about that but we're set up to have multiple projects and we have enough ideas to do that."

…I think the team and I are really excited about doing something completely new that will be completely surprising to people.

A few more great quotes… from barely being able to fund Psychonauts 2 to working on multiple projects. I'm so happy Microsoft is giving Tim and the team all the resources they need to continue making super creative games.

kubev · Aug 24, 2021

Aether said:
Opt in means if they want to.
Forcing them makes no sense.
I mean, shure, tests for accecibility would be great if it was default, but the option to just do it, and have teams specialiced for that alreads lowers the barrier for doing it. It still needs coordination with the testing teams,
so it is extra work and resources that the studio maybe cant spare at the moment.
Keep it easy and hassle free and studio will use it, especially when they get used to it.

That's true. I suppose not forcing it on them will at least entice them to use it when time permits, and that first experience will maybe help them to more easily integrate those processes into their own workflows to the point that they'll just always want to use it going forward.

Tomacco · Aug 24, 2021

I'm most excited to see what they will do when financial constraints is removed from the entirety of the process, as in not having to "add something back in" along the way but rather just building what their creative minds want to build.

Alovon11 · Aug 24, 2021

Raigor said:
Good guy Matt Booty.

Now, show the goods from the other acquisitions.

Swiggty Swoogity, Here comes Matt Booty.

Boksberger · Aug 24, 2021

I'm all happy for Tim and team but where is my Trenched sequel? That's my metric of success.

GI.biz: Tim Schafer on the impact of subscription models and judging the MS acquisition

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer

Prophet of Truth

Prophet of Truth

Account closed at user request

User requested account closure

User-requested account closure

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

The Shrouded Ghost

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change

User requested account closure

Prophet of Truth

Prophet of Truth

Prophet of Regret

Prophet of Truth

Account closed at user request