Definitly not Vanquish's hardest difficulty. It actually limits the mechanics of the game and forces you to play it slow and safe like a cover shooter which is the antithesis of what the game was designed to be.
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Good "Impossible" difficulty modes in games (Or why Horizon: Zero Dawn's Ultra Hard mode sucks)
- Thread starter haziq
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I used to be a big trophy hunter so played plenty of games on max difficulty. My main takeaway is that it's usually not worth the trouble, such a small percentage of games actually have proper modes that go beyond debuffing you/buffing enemies or just requiring excessive grinding.
A good hard mode is always good fun though. I played Horizon's Ultra Hard on NG+ and I can't remember it at all which probably means it was piss easy so probably not a good comparison to playing it outright.
Granted I haven't done it on Rebirth yet but I remember thinking FF7 Remake's hard mode was quite interesting, severely limiting mp recovery so you have to be sparing with each spell you use. There were some interesting material combos to get around it.
A good hard mode is always good fun though. I played Horizon's Ultra Hard on NG+ and I can't remember it at all which probably means it was piss easy so probably not a good comparison to playing it outright.
Granted I haven't done it on Rebirth yet but I remember thinking FF7 Remake's hard mode was quite interesting, severely limiting mp recovery so you have to be sparing with each spell you use. There were some interesting material combos to get around it.
The roguelike on Grounded difficulty is tense af too, best way to play it imo.
I really liked Very Hard mode in Soul Hackers 2 (which was stupidly DLC for some reason, though it was at least free). In addition to the usual harsh damage modifiers, you can't use items in battle, which actually ended up being a pretty interesting challenge. It made the boss fights a lot more tense when I couldn't easily revive my characters or restore their MP. Only thing I don't really like about it is that it makes the item store and one of Saizo's abilities totally useless.
Fire Emblem also has some good hard+ modes. Hector Hard Mode in FE7 changes a lot of enemy formations, allows bosses to move that couldn't before and even adds a fog of war effect to the desert map that isn't there on normal mode. A lot of it feels like it's meant to catch players experienced with the lower difficulties off guard which is a cool way to shake things up since you have to do at least two normal mode playthroughs to even unlock HHM. Fates Conquest's Lunatic mode is also super cool because it mostly doesn't boost enemy stats, it just gives the enemies new skills which has a huge impact on gameplay without making the game into a slog full of super tanky and powerful enemies. There's other hard modes as well that don't do anything flashy but are still well balanced and highly regarded by the FE playerbase (Shadow Dragon Hard5, Engage Maddening, etc). Only real exceptions I can think of are Path of Radiance Maniac (just a miserable slog with way too many enemies and bloated stats, thankfully this mode isn't even available in the US version) and Radiant Dawn Hard (which isn't bad on its own but made the mind-bogglingly stupid decision to remove being able to see the enemy's range indicators, if you patch this out it's fine).
Fire Emblem also has some good hard+ modes. Hector Hard Mode in FE7 changes a lot of enemy formations, allows bosses to move that couldn't before and even adds a fog of war effect to the desert map that isn't there on normal mode. A lot of it feels like it's meant to catch players experienced with the lower difficulties off guard which is a cool way to shake things up since you have to do at least two normal mode playthroughs to even unlock HHM. Fates Conquest's Lunatic mode is also super cool because it mostly doesn't boost enemy stats, it just gives the enemies new skills which has a huge impact on gameplay without making the game into a slog full of super tanky and powerful enemies. There's other hard modes as well that don't do anything flashy but are still well balanced and highly regarded by the FE playerbase (Shadow Dragon Hard5, Engage Maddening, etc). Only real exceptions I can think of are Path of Radiance Maniac (just a miserable slog with way too many enemies and bloated stats, thankfully this mode isn't even available in the US version) and Radiant Dawn Hard (which isn't bad on its own but made the mind-bogglingly stupid decision to remove being able to see the enemy's range indicators, if you patch this out it's fine).
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Yeah I hate this as well, mainly enemy health.
I like Contra Operation Galuga, but man on the 2 Extreme difficulties did they go overboard with giving bosses double the amount of health so it makes it exhausting to kill them. And for a Contra game taking 4-5 minutes to kill most bosses is really bad, definitely if you play with no health bar. Hard did it right so I don't get why they went that extreme(literally) with it.
Rage 2 is another example of doing it completely wrong. On Ultra Nightmare it's nearly unplayable with enemies having double health and double damage to the point you can get killed in 1-4 shots on average(you can even get 1 shotted in the tutorial) while it takes an entire clip or 2 to bring down 1 enemy. If you aren't going for headshots you're pretty much wasting bullets. It went from playing like Doom 2016 on other difficulties to a tactical shooter on Ultra Nightmare which is what the game isn't meant for. It seems to be designed more for New Game+(just like the game OP is talking about).
Just want to give a mention to the highest difficulty in Owlcat's two Pathfinder games, named Unfair. And they literally mean it, going so far as warning people in the description that they probably shouldn't play it.
Playing anything other than completely optimal and utilizing every piece of cheese or exploit you can find will lead to a really bad time. It's basically impossible to play with anything other than a completely crafted party, because the game's NPCs are all created sub optimally.
Playing anything other than completely optimal and utilizing every piece of cheese or exploit you can find will lead to a really bad time. It's basically impossible to play with anything other than a completely crafted party, because the game's NPCs are all created sub optimally.
The only way I beat HZD's Ultra mode was by rushing through the story with the power suit and doing the bare minimum to beat missions. I spent most of my time sprinting past enemies lol. Same with Grounded in TLOU 1-2
RE2remake hardcore mode is actually quite balanced. Just need to play more carefully and resource is still plenty.
DMC, MGR, Bayonetta also good with it since it actually change enemy placement and really test your skill.
DMC, MGR, Bayonetta also good with it since it actually change enemy placement and really test your skill.
I feel like until ai improves substantially there can never be a true difficulty mode
You can though on PC. But otherwise I think it's one of the better "hard" modes in recent memory, but even then it's not really "ultra hard" or anything. The main thing that really sets it apart is the default one save system.
I found "hard" on 2018 GoW particularly easy for the most part once you get beyond the "Draugr!" pit near the start. That section was pretty brutal on my first playthrough, but because of that, everything after just felt...easy by comparison. GMGoW on the other hand was rather obnoxious at times, but even then it gets easy enough as you progress.
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They die a hell of a lot faster than fallout 4 conventional mode tho right? Which was the point of my post
Ghost of Tsushima. Boss fights aside, enemies fall in a slash or two in the hardest difficulty. Feels more realistic.
This is actually why I generally DO NOT play games on anything but normal. Games generally are designed to be played on normal (with notable exceptions)
I like that a lot of modern games moved away from the older "Easy, Medium, Hard" difficulty settings to "Easy, Normal, Harder, Hardest".
I generally find "Harder" is the sweet spot at feeling challenging without all the bullshit and tedium that often comes with the top difficulties. Halo's "Heroic", Gears of War's "Hardcore" difficulties come to mind as perfect midpoints.
I generally find "Harder" is the sweet spot at feeling challenging without all the bullshit and tedium that often comes with the top difficulties. Halo's "Heroic", Gears of War's "Hardcore" difficulties come to mind as perfect midpoints.
came to say this, Lethal mode made GoT a 10/10 game for me
Oh god this reminds me of Resident Evil 5 on hard. IIRC you have to beat the game on easy to unlock hard mode, and doing so forces you into NG+. Of course at that point you're fully stocked and upgraded so hard mode ends up easier than normal...
So I sold all my equipment, I don't remember if there was a way to undo upgrades? But basically just set myself as far back to zero as possible, and then didn't allow myself to use the massive amount of currency that left me with.
I got as far as the first mini boss: waves of enemies invading a small room followed by a big fella with an axe as you enter a larger arena. It was probably possible to get further but I never managed it. Without all the resources and upgrades the game expected me to have I could never kill the big guy. It would have been fun, but a properly balanced hard mode just didn't exist.
I want to echo this sentiment, but note that while BBS and DDD did indeed miss the point of Critical, 0.2 and KH3 Critical are very much in the spirit of KH2 Critical in making you stronger but having less health.
0.2 gives you a flat 50% damage buff and KH3 gives you some truly busted exclusive abilities that let you abuse form changes much more than on Proud, especially if you store form changes and take full advantage of keyblade swapping to constantly build meter.
I always really enjoyed Insanity in ME3 much much more compared to ME1 or ME2 which were often very broken and just frustrating, especially for certain builds which made certain sections just torturous and straight up unfun to overcome with how gamey you had to be in order to win. ME3 was really well balanced and you still had a good sense of fodder enemies vs stronger enemies, so everyone was just giant multiple shield bullet sponge. It's a great showcase for the depth and quality of the enemy variety, build variety, and cross team dynamics how you can still wreck shit on Insanity in a lot of fights while still having some oh shit moments where you really need to play smart to not get torn to shreds. And this held true for all of the classes and not just some like the other games. Every build remained viable and capable and didn't rely on tricks and fudging the game to overcome challenges, you simply had to play the same way but smarter and more efficiently.
Halo 1-Reach legendary mode is my favorite hardmode in any game. The way the AI adapts, elites going for cover. You feel outnumbered and outgunned at every corner, yet it never feels impossible.
I absolutely despised the balancing in GoW ragnarok's hardest mode. Felt like every enemy had 50% more health than they needed. Wasn't as hard as it was tedious. And it was incredibly tedious.
I absolutely despised the balancing in GoW ragnarok's hardest mode. Felt like every enemy had 50% more health than they needed. Wasn't as hard as it was tedious. And it was incredibly tedious.
Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor on Grandmaster are how the games are meant to be played IMO. Enemies still die fast and do not become spongy, but you have to really master the parry and use your Force abilities fully in order to win.
When you pick this mode in the Complete Edition, does the game warn you that "this mode was intended for NG+ and should be selected with caution" or something like that, at least?
Couldn't disagree more. I played on Give Me a Challenge and it was already kind of tedious at times (unfortunately, anything below that was too easy and really boring). Can't even imagine how much of a slog Give Me God of War would be. Enemies are just sponges and Kratos is super squishy, it's the antithesis of a well-balanced and well-designed hard mode.
Yeah, it feels like the criticism should be more about how that difficulty mode should have remain gated behind NG+, rather than the mode being bad on itself.
When you pick this mode in the Complete Edition, does the game warn you that "this mode was intended for NG+ and should be selected with caution" or something like that, at least?
If it is available in New Game, the critique is perfectly valid. The game is designed to give players many options to create their perfect experience along with all the accessibility options, so I understand why they didn't lock it to NG+.
To me it feels like a bad type of difficulty, just bloating/reducing health. I think games like TLOU2 that keep the damage the same but create other ways the difficutly increases are much moe satisfying examples of difficulty done well.
Glass cannon hard difficulties in action games are really great and incredibly thrilling when properly designed/balanced/playtested/etc.
Not exactly the same thing, but I love the way Half-Life 1 works on the hardest difficulty. You've got a huge arsenal but you want to make sure you save anything capable of 1HKOing a Marine for encounters with the military, and that ends up making the resource economy something you have to be really thoughtful about.
I wish more games had this TBH.
Too many go for "increased enemy/boss health and damage to the player" instead.
Normal on many modern games can be on the easier side these days. Going for at least Hard is ideal for most of them. Hardest is sometimes the best(depending on the game) but can have problems with balance for many of them(even though I beaten many games on hardest difficulties).
Yup. TLOU and TLOU2 Grounded modes are the pinnacle of this. They completely change not only how you play, but what the game is. It basically makes each combat section into a puzzle.
2 did. I forget if it was a difficulty setting or a mode, but it was absolutely nuts... Only one character could see the enemies, and they are the one who cant attack, so its a pain.
The time attack mode is an annoyance as well, because some wise guy at Capcom didnt think to balance levels well with this mode in mind - so that first chapter with the long, slow buildup? It makes the first chapter more annoying than it should because you have to really be fast to get to the point where you can start earning time before it runs out. And of course if you fail... back to the beginning of said chapter to relive the nightmare!
Good hard difficulties force you to engage with the game's systems.
Bad hard difficulties force you to play in unfun ways to optimize progress.
Here's one I don't ever see brought up. Knack 1 on Hard becomes unironically Baby's First Bayonetta. The amount of defensive play encouraged is pretty fun.
Bad hard difficulties force you to play in unfun ways to optimize progress.
Here's one I don't ever see brought up. Knack 1 on Hard becomes unironically Baby's First Bayonetta. The amount of defensive play encouraged is pretty fun.
I see a lot of people talking about the last of us with this but I assume not talking about the first one? At least not the original release? Not sure about re-releases but I found the original game already extremely tedious on even normal difficulty and ended up just turning the difficulty down to the lowest just to get through it faster. The sequel though I enjoyed a lot on normal and if I play it again I'll probably bump up the difficulty.
The original Dragon Age Origins on the highest difficulty for pc I felt was the best way to play the game. Extremely challenging but not tooo impossible. Turned it basically into a turn based game since you had to micromanage every action which I found a lot of fun.
The original Dragon Age Origins on the highest difficulty for pc I felt was the best way to play the game. Extremely challenging but not tooo impossible. Turned it basically into a turn based game since you had to micromanage every action which I found a lot of fun.
Now that I see this I really don't like critical mode in Kingdom Hearts games. I always feel like early game is especially tedious in these games and it limits you more than it does help you overcome situations. Also I never get this RPG feeling, where you see your character getting actually stronger. E.g. you don't see how your healthbar actually gets huge when you finished the mainstory and reached lvl 99.
This also brings me to FFVII-Remake hard mode, I really really disliked that one. I understand if you want to limit the item usage, but limiting it outside of battles were in my eyes a bad idea. You get like 99 Potions and you will never use them. Your MP not getting refilled also just makes you use magic really really sparse instead of experimenting how you can use spells you will just keep to things you know. Or you just abuse the games system and reload infront of boxes and hit them. Heard part 2 is similiar which I find really annoying.
There are no changes between the re-relases, except maybe remake where it is more difficult I would say. What did you found tedious? If you liked the harder second part, then I am really interested what you found tedious
TLOU is still one of the goats to me in this regard. Grounded difficulty felt tuned, deliberate and like a true struggle that you could realistically overcome with the proper approach.
So many games higher difficulties are just - here are are spongier enemies that deal more damage. Oh and there's more of them too! Wow!
It's one reason I can appreciate a game that has no difficulties - just a developer that has a clear vision of how to tune the difficulty to make it fun and challenging for the highest number of people.
So many games higher difficulties are just - here are are spongier enemies that deal more damage. Oh and there's more of them too! Wow!
It's one reason I can appreciate a game that has no difficulties - just a developer that has a clear vision of how to tune the difficulty to make it fun and challenging for the highest number of people.
Sounds like a case of git gud. I did ultra hard on controller aim (no assist), which sucks balls coming from a PC person.
As for a bad one, I'd say Tales of Graces F. That shit is beyond hard on a first playthrough when you reach Chaos. Still very fun when you pull of some insane combos and perfect dodges.
As for a bad one, I'd say Tales of Graces F. That shit is beyond hard on a first playthrough when you reach Chaos. Still very fun when you pull of some insane combos and perfect dodges.
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Ultra Hard mode was a post release addition for HZD on PS4, as was NG+. It definitely seemed tuned for that. On the one hand I hate developers locking difficulty modes behind a full playthrough, but I think examples like the OP make a good argument for that solution.
It's kind of hard to articulate I guess. I just found the combat encounters to not be fun in the slightest and anytime I had an extended sequence I just wanted it to end. Especially stealth sequences. Honestly some of it might also have been the PS3 controller as its my least favorite controller of all time (kind of hyperbolic, guess I'd have to think about it but its bottom 3 for me) and anything to do with aiming felt terrible. I still don't love the PS4 controller but find it a lot better than the PS3 so that might have helped also with LoU2 being more enjoyable. But I dunno, I'm kind of rambling but like I mentioned up front I can't exactly pinpoint the difference but LoU2 just felt astronomically better in every way to me.
*edit* One minor addition, and its not like I got better at it so thats why LoU2 felt better. I bounced off LoU about at the half way mark initially and didn't finish it until I went back to it after finishing the sequel and still felt the same.
came to say this. Bayonetta's use of difficulty is god-tier. each difficulty seamlessly rolls into the next. Bayonetta 2, a bit less so (enemies become a bit spongy for my taste in climax).
I really got to try them in Nightmare(as I played them on Ultra Violence).
Ultra Nightmare would be nuts though, lol.
Does Hades count? Someone finally did it but I just don't see how these kinds of options where your options are extremely limited and it took years for someone to beat is pillar of a good design by that community.
youtu.be
Why Max Heat in Hades is Nearly Impossible | Haelian
8/2/23 Update: Congratulations to AngeL1C for proving me dead wrong! They destroyed 64 heat without mods or seeds just 8 days after this video was posted. A ...
youtu.be
I really recommend it.
Except for the TAG 1 final boss (unerfed), I had a blast with all of it.
Does Hades count? Someone finally did it but I just don't see how these kinds of options where your options are extremely limited and it took years for someone to beat is pillar of a good design by that community.
Why Max Heat in Hades is Nearly Impossible | Haelian
8/2/23 Update: Congratulations to AngeL1C for proving me dead wrong! They destroyed 64 heat without mods or seeds just 8 days after this video was posted. A ...
You're not meant to play the game on max heat. It's cool that someone actually did it but acting like the designers are incompetent for letting you play the game with all the modular difficulty sliders maxed out (which would take a long, long time to even unlock) is silly.
Serious Sam's always been an interesting example of good hard and bad hard in the same game.
The standard final difficulty (out of five) is Serious, which drives enemy counts and damage way up to the point where common enemies can three-shot you from full health without armor and a direct hit from a big enemy with armor will still leave you at death's door. But it doesn't adjust enemy health or player damage at all, and nicks DOOM's idea of giving you double ammo, so the whole thing winds up being this incredibly tense skill check where you're forever teetering on the knife's edge but all your knowledge of how the game works still applies and your resources can keep up with the increased carnage.
Beating that unlocks Mental mode, which is balanced like hard difficulty rather than serious, but with the caveat that the enemies are invisible most of the time and only briefly phase into view every couple seconds. Complete insanity. The score multiplier for it is higher than serious mode though, so if you're chasing high scores, uh, good luck.
I'll also shout out the DS Castlevanias, which started getting in-depth with their hard modes. Lower damage dealt and higher damage received is a staple, but they also reduce the value of leveling up in some way as well, either through directly reduced stat gains or a selection of level caps, so gear and other sources of power become drastically more important. And then the enemies get new and improved abilities and harder placement as well, just to turn the screws. Brutally challenging at the high end, but very satisfying to work through.
The standard final difficulty (out of five) is Serious, which drives enemy counts and damage way up to the point where common enemies can three-shot you from full health without armor and a direct hit from a big enemy with armor will still leave you at death's door. But it doesn't adjust enemy health or player damage at all, and nicks DOOM's idea of giving you double ammo, so the whole thing winds up being this incredibly tense skill check where you're forever teetering on the knife's edge but all your knowledge of how the game works still applies and your resources can keep up with the increased carnage.
Beating that unlocks Mental mode, which is balanced like hard difficulty rather than serious, but with the caveat that the enemies are invisible most of the time and only briefly phase into view every couple seconds. Complete insanity. The score multiplier for it is higher than serious mode though, so if you're chasing high scores, uh, good luck.
I'll also shout out the DS Castlevanias, which started getting in-depth with their hard modes. Lower damage dealt and higher damage received is a staple, but they also reduce the value of leveling up in some way as well, either through directly reduced stat gains or a selection of level caps, so gear and other sources of power become drastically more important. And then the enemies get new and improved abilities and harder placement as well, just to turn the screws. Brutally challenging at the high end, but very satisfying to work through.
Might be contrary to popular opinion but I found Fire Emblem Awakening's Lunatic difficulty perfect and it's the hardest difficulty available one a new save file. Requires you to heavily engage with the otherwise broken partner up mechanics and endless re-classing which I found super fun. Made a thread about it on my most recent replay.
Once you beat the game on Lunatic you unlike Lunatic+ though which is pure bullshit. Basically requires resetting your save on some early maps to ensure enemies don't have OP skills like "counter".
Once you beat the game on Lunatic you unlike Lunatic+ though which is pure bullshit. Basically requires resetting your save on some early maps to ensure enemies don't have OP skills like "counter".