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NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,189
To be clear, they did not have sex, so that label is not really relevant here. He probably was a scumbag, but that's not really relevant to this case.

The post I responded to presented a hypothetical. I was not speaking to this specific case.

"If someone solicits sex for money (although people want to argue otherwise...he was a random John, he picked her up in his truck with no prior contact/background knowledge) is it really rape?"

The answer is, if that person is under the legal age of consent, yes that is rape.
 

Ortix

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,438
The post I responded to presented a hypothetical. I was not speaking to this specific case.

"If someone solicits sex for money (although people want to argue otherwise...he was a random John, he picked her up in his truck with no prior contact/background knowledge) is it really rape?"

The answer is, if that person is under the legal age of consent, yes that is rape.
Solliciting does not automatically mean having sex; but if they did, you would of course be absolutely right.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
I didn't think it was necessary either until people crawled out of the woodwork using it as a justification for murder and/or walking away scott free.

Even if the guy was a pedophile he did not deserve extra-judicial murder, this should be a non-controversial viewpoint, it's not necessary to prove one way or another.

It's okay for someone in the heat of their emotions to argue that Brown shouldn't have served any time, they'd be wrong, but it's perfectly fine.

I suppose in some sense it's correct to say that she shouldn't have served any time in the context that our prison system doesn't exist for rehabilitation but instead for punishment. If the prison system were adjusted to rehabilitate juvenile offenders rather than abuse them we'd likely be having a different conversation entirely.
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,337
To be clear, they did not have sex, so that label is not really relevant here. He probably was a scumbag, but that's not really relevant to this case.

Please read the context of who I was responding to. That user had essentially asked that if having sex with this prostitute would be rape, than isn't having sex with any prostitute rape? My answer was that when the prostitute is underage, that's the part that makes it rape, in such a hypothetical example.
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
It is important, but I still don't understand how people are saying she shouldn't have served a day in prison.

Granted, because of her age and circumstances she shouldn't have been given the sentence she got, and letting her out now is the right move because she looks to have been rehabilitated, but I still think murdering someone while they sleep deserves at least some jail time.

So, someone is enslaved and raped -- you don't think that they have the right to escape their abusers by any means necessary? So, if someone breaks in your house and rapes you, and in fury you kill them -- you deserve jail time?

You can't hold a minor culpable for her mental state when she's been abused in such a way. Sorry, that's just nuts.
 

Ortix

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,438
Please read the context of who I was responding to. That user had essentially asked that if having sex with this prostitute would be rape, than isn't having sex with any prostitute rape? My answer was that when the prostitute is underage, that's the part that makes it rape, in such a hypothetical example.
Ah, I think one of us misunderstood his post then. I thought he was referring to this specific case, not a hypothetical one. My bad if I got things confused.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775

We need a Season 3 Serial style podcast on just this case, from the initial arrest through each step in the broken ass process. I wanna be able to put a face and name to the person who decided it was okay to prosecute a 16 year old girl as an adult and pursue life.

I'm guessing it was one of those where the defense didn't want to cut a deal and so the prosecutor went HAM because they were personally insulted, I don't know enough about it though.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,025
Y'all really defending rapists and damning sex trafficking victims in here. Fucking disgraceful.
but he was a poor guy! a working man who just wanted to let off some steam by paying for sex with a teenager! HE"S A VICTIM :(((

and i simply MUST let everyone know that in a thread about the release of the teenager who was sex traffic'd and enslaved then imprisoned for 15 years! I MUST BE THE PERSON WHO TELLS EVERYONE THAT SHE WASN'T THE ONLY VICTIMMMMMMMM
/s
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
Even if the guy was a pedophile he did not deserve extra-judicial murder, this should be a non-controversial viewpoint, it's not necessary to prove one way or another.

It's okay for someone in the heat of their emotions to argue that Brown shouldn't have served any time, they'd be wrong, but it's perfectly fine.

I suppose in some sense it's correct to say that she shouldn't have served any time in the context that our prison system doesn't exist for rehabilitation but instead for punishment. If the prison system were adjusted to rehabilitate juvenile offenders rather than abuse them we'd likely be having a different conversation entirely.

I don't consider something like this murder. She was directly being sex trafficked -- she was a victim doing what she had to in order to survive. It's like a child on a battlefield. The reason people are upset with your comments is that you're acting like this was some rational, pre-meditated attack. She was in the process of being trafficked, abused, and used ... As far as I'm concerned, she was just the weapon of the person that trafficked her. He's the one that should have been charged with murder.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
I don't consider something like this murder. She was directly being sex trafficked -- she was a victim don't what she had to in order to survive. It's like a child on a battlefield. The reason people are upset with your comments is that you're acting like this was some rational, pre-meditated attack. She was in the process of being trafficked, abused, and used ... As far as I'm concerned, she was just the weapon of the person that trafficked her. He's the one that should have been charged with murder.

I don't think anyone is upset with my comments.

I completely sympathize with those who say she shouldn't have served a day in prison, especially given how fucked up our system is. In my perfect world she would have been given the tools necessary to succeed by the state rather than incarcerated for murder. However, even if you think she should have served time, clearly 15 years is enough under the circumstances.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
So, someone is enslaved and raped -- you don't think that they have the right to escape their abusers by any means necessary? So, if someone breaks in your house and rapes you, and in fury you kill them -- you deserve jail time?

You can't hold a minor culpable for her mental state when she's been abused in such a way. Sorry, that's just nuts.

What's this hypothetical have to do with this case?

It's totally irrelevant. He wasn't her captor, he didn't break into her house, and it's questionable that he raped her based on testimony.

To be clear it was a travesty that she got life and she should be released on time served WITHOUT probation, but it's still murder.
 
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JoeBoy101

Member
Oct 25, 2017
751
We need a Season 3 Serial style podcast on just this case, from the initial arrest through each step in the broken ass process. I wanna be able to put a face and name to the person who decided it was okay to prosecute a 16 year old girl as an adult and pursue life.

I'm guessing it was one of those where the defense didn't want to cut a deal and so the prosecutor went HAM because they were personally insulted, I don't know enough about it though.

Well, it's not like she'd be the first 16 year old tried as an adult. Prosecutors get the discretion when to elevate if the crime can be shown to a judge as equatable to do so. In this case, if you remove the extentuating cricumstances, a reasonable argument could be made to try as an adult, given the nature of the murder and the subsequent robbing.

BUT, that removes some gigantic extentuating circumstances. When you review the case history, Brown's history and the other circumstances of the crime, that sentence is abhorrent. If I gave benefit of the doubt to prosecutors, I'd suggest they hurried in this case and didn't properly review everything.

But I don't, because prosecutors abuse their powers on the reg, so yeah, in the end, a word salad to say I agree with you.

Glad she's out, having to do probation is ridiculous, but given how she sounds now, it looks like she can handle it. Hope she can get some peace and love in this world after having to crawl through such a shitheap. God knows she's owed.
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
We need a Season 3 Serial style podcast on just this case, from the initial arrest through each step in the broken ass process. I wanna be able to put a face and name to the person who decided it was okay to prosecute a 16 year old girl as an adult and pursue life.

I'm guessing it was one of those where the defense didn't want to cut a deal and so the prosecutor went HAM because they were personally insulted, I don't know enough about it though.

You'd be wrong. Both her defense failed her completely, and the prosecution was overly zealous. The trial was a joke. There are also questions about how the evidence was presented and framed making it seem more likely she killed him in cold blood.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/12/219015/cyntoia-brown-case-facts-real-story
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
You'd be wrong. Both her defense failed her completely, and the prosecution was overly zealous. The trial was a joke. There are also questions about how the evidence was presented and framed making it seem more likely she killed him in cold blood.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/12/219015/cyntoia-brown-case-facts-real-story

I'm going to have to watch that documentary, this article doesn't get into the facts I'm interested in unfortunately. I think you've misunderstood what I had said, we both agree that the prosecution was completely out of line. I just want to know what (beyond abject racism) led them to peruse consecutive life sentences for a 16 year old girl and how NOBODY in that chain of decisions was brave enough to stand up and question what the fuck they were doing.

Because literally EVERYONE agrees that 51 years given the circumstances is horrific.
 

JoeBoy101

Member
Oct 25, 2017
751
You'd be wrong. Both her defense failed her completely, and the prosecution was overly zealous. The trial was a joke. There are also questions about how the evidence was presented and framed making it seem more likely she killed him in cold blood.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/12/219015/cyntoia-brown-case-facts-real-story

Overly zealous prosecution? Most prosecutions I've read about are always extremely zealous, near fanatical.

Unless police officers are being tried, of course.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,292
Y'all really defending rapists and damning sex trafficking victims in here. Fucking disgraceful.
but he was a poor guy! a working man who just wanted to let off some steam by paying for sex with a teenager! HE"S A VICTIM :(((

and i simply MUST let everyone know that in a thread about the release of the teenager who was sex traffic'd and enslaved then imprisoned for 15 years! I MUST BE THE PERSON WHO TELLS EVERYONE THAT SHE WASN'T THE ONLY VICTIMMMMMMMM
/s

ItS NoT ThE SaMe

ShE DiDnT KiLl HeR CaPtoR

He WaS aN InNoCenT JoHn WhO LikEd ScReWInG KiDs
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
Forensics said the man was sleeping. I know police can lie, but I don't understand the comments that she should never have been locked up at all. She killed someone while they were sleeping. I can understand leniency if she killed her pimp but this was a 3rd party.

He wasn't a 3rd party, he was a willing participant in child sex trafficking. Either way, leniency should be extended far beyond that given her circumstances. You're insinuating that she indeed deserves consecutive life sentences for the murder of the guy, is that really what you mean?
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
He wasn't a 3rd party, he was a willing participant in child sex trafficking. Either way, leniency should be extended far beyond that given her circumstances. You're insinuating that she indeed deserves consecutive life sentences for the murder of the guy, is that really what you mean?

I didn't say she deserved any sentencing, just I was surprised on first reading the comments and what the wiki article from the op or another post said. Again, I'll read more later, after work.
 

OmegaDragon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
214
We need a Season 3 Serial style podcast on just this case, from the initial arrest through each step in the broken ass process. I wanna be able to put a face and name to the person who decided it was okay to prosecute a 16 year old girl as an adult and pursue life.

I'm guessing it was one of those where the defense didn't want to cut a deal and so the prosecutor went HAM because they were personally insulted, I don't know enough about it though.

Its mentioned in this article, that was posted in this thread earlier. Really good (if depressive giving what it's about) read:
https://www.nashvillescene.com/news...ot-an-adults-life-sentence-was-justice-served

This part explains one of the reasons why she was tried as an adult. Because if she would be tried as a minor, she'd be free when she'd turn 19 (she was convicted when she was 16). And the justice system would lose any control over her. In this case, trying her as an adult would maybe have been better if she would have gotten a reasonable sentence.

In Tennessee, when a minor commits a crime and is charged as a juvenile, she remains in the custody of the Department of Children's Services until her 19th birthday, after which the court loses its jurisdiction. But if she is tried as an adult, she faces the same procedures and penalties as any other criminal. Juveniles charged with murder are almost always transferred, facing trial as adults.

The stark choice for judges — between the out-by-19 sentence that's perceived as light for a murderer and the black-and-white justice of life in prison for a crime committed as an impressionable teen — reveals a fundamental inadequacy of the current system, one in effect promoted by a state legislature pleased with the status quo. Under the current system, nobody — not DCS, the district attorney or the juvenile judge — has any control over juveniles past their 19th birthdays. That leaves judges like Green with little choice but to transfer them.

"OK, I've got nothing I can do with this girl or this guy. She's committed a terrible crime," attorney Jim Todd, a former special prosecutor for violent juvenile offenders with the district attorney's office, says of defendants like Cyntoia. She "needs an extreme amount of work. DCS isn't gonna do it. So my only other option is to transfer her to [adult criminal court], and if she's found guilty there, [the Tennessee Department of Correction] will take her for the rest of her life. There is no in-between."

A compromise was proffered in 1999, when former Gov. Don Sundquist convened a commission — of which Todd was a member — that recommended a system known as blended sentencing. Instead of transferring juveniles to criminal court to be tried as adults, they'd be remanded to a secure facility and the juvenile judge would maintain an extended jurisdiction until the inmate's 24th birthday. Meanwhile, counseling and vocational training would be provided. If certain benchmarks were met, and the inmates truly applied themselves to personal development, they could be released while still young enough to reintegrate into society.

The concept recognized that you can't keep a kid in juvenile lockup until her 19th birthday and release her back to the very environment that created her. It was proposed as a way to transform juveniles in danger of becoming adult felons into law-abiding citizens. Rather than writing them off and locking them up for decades based on crimes they committed as impulsive, even malleable youths, the program amounted to a second chance — a program Preston Shipp says is the solution.

The state legislature balked at its price tag, however, and none of the commission's recommendations were implemented, Todd says. This was particularly shortsighted, since incarcerating the 20,000 Tennessee inmates in adult facilities in 2010 cost taxpayers roughly $1.26 million a day. And so kids like Cyntoia Brown find themselves on a scale, the safety of the public counterbalanced with a state agency's ability to rehabilitate juveniles when it can't keep them past their tumultuous teen years.
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
Its mentioned in this article, that was posted in this thread earlier. Really good (if depressive giving what it's about) read:
https://www.nashvillescene.com/news...ot-an-adults-life-sentence-was-justice-served

This part explains one of the reasons why she was tried as an adult. Because if she would be tried as a minor, she'd be free when she'd turn 19 (she was convicted when she was 16). And the justice system would lose any control over her. In this case, trying her as an adult would maybe have been better if she would have gotten a reasonable sentence.
Interesting! Thanks. Of course Tennessee didn't vote for rehab/changing their system for juvenile offenders because of $$$. Sigh.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
We need a Season 3 Serial style podcast on just this case, from the initial arrest through each step in the broken ass process. I wanna be able to put a face and name to the person who decided it was okay to prosecute a 16 year old girl as an adult and pursue life.

I'm guessing it was one of those where the defense didn't want to cut a deal and so the prosecutor went HAM because they were personally insulted, I don't know enough about it though.
I'm curious myself. I never heard of this case when it was happening at the time.
 

siddx

Banned
Dec 25, 2017
1,807
The system failed this girl. Any child whose only guardian and role model is a fucking pimp has been so horribly let down by society it should surprise nobody when they fuck up. But as always our response is to lock that person away instead of being horrified at the fact we are still a broken nation when it comes to justice and equality for minorities and the poor.
She never deserved life in prison. She deserved a normal childhood where she wasn't forced to fuck strange men. But since our system wouldn't give her that we can at least give her leniency now and a chance to do better.

Oh and you damn well know if she had been a blonde white girl she wouldn't have spent a day in jail and would be hailed a hero for "bravely fighting out of her situation." Fucking lifetime movies and people magazine articles singing her praises every week.