Akiba756

Member
Oct 1, 2020
1,185
Sao Paolo, Brazil
Occasionally you hear stuff like "Heroic difficulty is the intended way to play the Halo games" or "Kingdom Hearts games are at their peak on Critical mode" I get harder difficulties forcing players to use all tools at their disposal, but, apparently, the inverse can also be true, I've seen a few people argue how the Uncharted games are better on Easy because you can actually have fun with the mobility options in the game, while hard force you to play it like a boring stop and pop shooter

So, with that said, what differentiates a fun hard mode to a boring one?
 
Last edited:

Tengrave

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
909
A big fan of modes that allow for increased damage for the player and enemies. Lethal saved Ghost of Tsushima for me.
 

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,201
I think a fun hard mode is one that makes you use the toolbox they give you to the full extent.

God tier Hard mode: Crysis
Really made you focus on getting the best out of your abilities. Its hard, but you become the goddamn Predator and it is so damn satifying.

Recent Bad Hardmode: FF7 Remake
It prevents you from refilling mana, so it felt like it severely limited the tools you are used to playing with and playing in a way that was mostly reliant on the action combat and abilities rather than the tactical options of spells. Probably my least favorite hardmode of any game Ive played before.

EDIT: Also glass cannon (increasing player attack while decreasing their defense) is always great
 

Pop-O-Matic

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,041
User Banned (3 days): drive-by; antagonizing other users
It's just hardcore gamer circle-jerkery to make themselves feel superior to the casual plebs actually playing games for fun instead of doing so to prove their gamer cred. Like, there's a reason normal mode is called "NORMAL" mode, FFS.

PS. Soulsbournekiring games need an easy mode, and if they ruin the hard mode for you...even better.
 

JaxiPup

Member
Dec 23, 2017
689
Massachusetts
Harder difficulties that increase the players offense tend to be favored by fans it seems. KH2 Critical mode in particular.

Tedium seems to be what differentiates a good hard mode from a bad one. Dealing chip damage against enemies that one or two shot isn't very enjoyable. Some survival horror games focus on resource availability through difficulty, and recent RE games go further with remixed enemy placement. Mad House in RE7 strode the line with tough enemies and fun new placements of items and such imo
 
Dec 5, 2017
1,507
I feel like Fallout 4 is a totally different game on Survival mode compared to normal mode. No fast travel, limited saves, lowered carry weight, more emphasis on scavenging for what you really need, ammo has weight and some more changes really makes it into a different experience.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,955
Of course it depends on the game. I found The Last of Us wonderful in Survivor/Grounded, it just completely changed the way I approached combat encounters and the resources I had. I didn't feel the same with Part 2, though, as I felt it was more punishing rather than challenging, and dropped it back to normal.

On the other end of the spectrum, Control is a far superior game with the custom options set to make it easier. It finally becomes fun.
 
Jul 26, 2018
4,737
I actually think Hard mode is the sweet spot for Uncharted games. Really exhilarating and I normally play aggressive
 

Tokyo_Funk

Banned
Dec 10, 2018
10,053
For Halo, the enemies move around more and flank more at higher difficulty, making the game and combat feel more alive.
Games like GoldenEye and Perfect Dark add more missions and objectives.
Ninja Gaiden Black adds more enemies and encounters.

Sometimes harder difficulties basically make it a different game altogether.
 

DarthWalden

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,030
Being difficult and rewarding without being cheap...

A lot of times it feels like developers don't properly balance the game for the various difficulties and just Jack up enemies life/damage or the number of enemies without being concerned about how that will effect the game. Some games just aren't deep gameplay wise or offer enough tools to make harder difficulties interesting and it ends up feeling cheap.

Uncharted is a great example of a game that gets dramatically worse at higher difficulties where as TLOU 2 is the opposite.

Halo is the one series that goes from an okay game gameplay wise to legitimately great at higher difficulties because of all the stuff in the sandbox and how creative it forces you to get (plus some clever checkpointing allowing you to progress well still dying a ton)
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,295
Cornfields
Kingdom Hearts 2 Critical Mode is basically that. What differentiates it from the regular difficulties is that you get half as much health you normally would plus take more damage, 3/4 xp rate, gain less MP. That's balanced out with the difficultly giving you more abilities right from the start with 50AP to spend on, you doing 25% more damage, and AP increases are by 3 instead of 2. Makes the game feel a lot more fun.

It basically makes you a glass cannon, while also nerfing magic so you aren't able to spam it as much.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,798
Whatever the default difficulty is that the game puts you on / recommends is the essential way to experience it. Some people like it easier or more difficult, but the default difficulty is the one the developers found to be most balancing for most players.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,553
It's just hardcore gamer circle-jerkery to make themselves feel superior to the casual plebs actually playing games for fun instead of doing so to prove their gamer cred. Like, there's a reason normal mode is called "NORMAL" mode, FFS.
To be fair, sometimes naming schemes are misleading.

For some reason, the easy mode of Metroid Prime 3 and Metroid Prime Trilogy was called "Normal Mode" while the actual intended normal mode was called "Veteran Mode" (Implying you have to be a veteran of the Metroid Prime games to play it). Led to some people being upset about how easy the game is only to realize they'd been playing on the easy mode.

On a side note, the hard difficulty, "Hyper Mode", is really poorly balanced in Prime 3. Certain bosses, particularly the final boss, just have ridiculous amounts of health.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,996
Ibis Island
I'm a big fan of "easier" modes being the "right way" to play. Like Metal Gear Rising with the Fox Blade is the true MGR experience IMO.
A Cyborg Ninja like Raiden shouldn't be having any issues with any enemy that isn't a boss and that run allows for that.

There were a few other games I played that I would recommend on easy as well but I can't remember specifically what they were. A lot of time they're titles that fill a bit too spongey combat-wise that gets resolved with easier difficulty (RE: Operation Raccoon City is one I remembered just now).
 

TheClaw7667

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,761
For me, any hard mode that is just enemies do more damage to you and you do less damage to them is a terrible hard mode. An example of a good hard more is what Naughty Dog did with The Last of Us 2 and having enemy behaviour change and amount of resources available depending on what setting the player selected. Other recent games that did difficulty settings well would be IO Interactive with the difficulty settings in the Hitman games and DOOM Eternal's difficulty settings which I think are perfect examples of how to do difficulty settings in an FPS.
 

Dinoegg_96

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
2,047
A bda hard mode is any game that turns enemies into damage sponges.

I recently started playing Persona 5 Strikers, and the hard mode is pretty good. The enemies don't die as easily as they do in normal mode, but I wouldn't consider them damage sponges. In this mode, the game doesn't let you button mash your way through the enemies. You have to pay attention to both your weaknesses and theirs, you have to constantly switch persona and you also have to keep an eye on your SP.
 

Deleted member 34949

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 30, 2017
19,101
Harder difficulties that increase the players offense tend to be favored by fans it seems. KH2 Critical mode in particular.

Tedium seems to be what differentiates a good hard mode from a bad one. Dealing chip damage against enemies that one or two shot isn't very enjoyable. Some survival horror games focus on resource availability through difficulty, and recent RE games go further with remixed enemy placement. Mad House in RE7 strode the line with tough enemies and fun new placements of items and such imo
My thoughts exactly. KH is honestly a pretty good example of both sides of the spectrum: KH2FM as you said is great because it allows you to kill things just as quickly as you can be killed, so it becomes a dance of managing your resources to make sure you can efficiently kill enemies before you can ever be put in a comparable situation.

Whereas Critical Mode in say, Birth by Sleep just buffs enemy stats and nerfs player damage. So fights don't even necessarily get harder; they just take longer and are way more tedious.

A big fan of modes that allow for increased damage for the player and enemies. Lethal saved Ghost of Tsushima for me.
I think you might have just sold me on GoT.
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,295
Cornfields
Harder difficulties that increase the players offense tend to be favored by fans it seems. KH2 Critical mode in particular.

Tedium seems to be what differentiates a good hard mode from a bad one. Dealing chip damage against enemies that one or two shot isn't very enjoyable. Some survival horror games focus on resource availability through difficulty, and recent RE games go further with remixed enemy placement. Mad House in RE7 strode the line with tough enemies and fun new placements of items and such imo
Hard modes in Mega Man Legends games suck. They only make enemies/bosses almost twice as spongey, and make it so that you get less money from enemies. Upgrading weapons was already a grind. Adding spongier enemies and less money to the mix ain't fun difficulty.
 

Milk

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,864
"Heroic difficulty is the intended way to play the Halo games"
I mean this quite literally was Bungie's own in-game description of Heroic difficulty.

I still play normal though to enjoy the story on my first playthroughs before tackling the higher difficulties for achievements afterward.
 

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,680
Washington
Immediately thought of Alien: Isolation since that game specifically says in the menu that Hard mode is the intended way to experience the game.
 

norealmx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
722
Seattle, WA
Contra III : The Aliens War

But I used to "complete" the game by doing the three runs under 1 hour now and then back in the 90's.

Que tiempos aquellos!
 

Incubuster

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,292
The Last of Us is one of my favorite examples of this. The difficulty makes the game much more engaging I feel. In particular the resource management, it's not extremely strict especially if you're efficient with ammo and items but it toughens up the game in appreciable way compared to the regular difficulty.
 

Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,675
Both of your examples in your OP are the same in a way.
  • Hard mode in Kingdom Hearts is good because it forces you to use all the tools at your disposal.
  • Easy mode is good in Uncharted because it allows you to use all the tools at your disposal.
 

HououinKyouma

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,433
Ghost of Tsushima is one of the rare games I moved up to hard on my first playthrough. Made it so much better.
 

kamineko

Linked the Fire
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,765
Accardi-by-the-Sea
I have the most fun with RE4 pro difficulty. It's not bad as far as RE difficulties go and just feels perfect for me

I would never say it's meant to be played that way, people playing normal are just enjoying their video game, same as me
 

CubeApple76

Member
Jan 20, 2021
6,823
When hard mode is more than just modifiers on friendly/enemy damage or health. Halo as an example allows for more complex AI behaviors on harder difficulties that you don't see on easier ones. Also, a good hard mode involves the player mastering the game mechanics, like getting used to the noob combo (Plasma Pistol/Magnum) in Halo CE, which is basically mandatory for beating the game on Legendary. If the hard mode is just those modifiers, and can be completed without any different play than easy mode outside of more attempts and being more careful, then it isn't as fun.
 

Efejota

Member
Mar 13, 2018
3,750
I only want my games to feel rewarding and have at least a minimum of challenge, so if a game creates a disonance between narrative hardship and actual challenge, I'll make sure to raise the difficulty.
For example, I'd say Hero mode is the way to play the GC/Wii Zelda games because enemies do too little damage on regular mode, but it's not like it improves the experience that much as I'd prefer if the enemies became more intelligent and faster. It just raises the stakes as much as the game would allow, at least unless you try to do a 3 heart run.

Thinking about this in "gamer mentaility" I recently saw a streamer starting Birth by Sleep for the first time on Critical knowing fully well that they won't even try to meld anything or use any of the other new battle mechanics until the final boss forces them to, and I pity them. That game is all about experimentation with new attacks and unlocking stat buffs by switching and maxing out commands as you play, but without them it just becomes a frustrating game of dying without knowing what hit you.

So... a difficulty setting by itself is not enough. It's also up to the player to use all of the tools at their disposal within that difficulty. If someone says that x game is too easy on normal or hard, it's probably because they have mastered the knowledge of everything that's "broken" in the game and how to exploit it, and thus can't have fun at those settings anymore. This is not what first time players will probably experience, so it can end up really unfair situations if you were to listen to those seasoned players that like to brag about their mastery.
 

SavoryTruffle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,409
I say some version of this all the time. Usually it's more of an encouragement toward players that I know are skilled enough to handle the mode I'm referencing.

Framing it as 'meant to be played' is unnecessary. All you're doing to trying to match expected skill levels with the 'correct' normal mode for them. Myself, as well as most people I know, pretty much don't enjoy many games on normal mode because we experience them as too easy. There are many games I flat out will not play if they don't have a hard mode. I know I won't enjoy them. Everyone has a different standard for what 'feels right' and the labeling is often bordering on useless. You either have a default standard or you ask someone you trust for a recommendation.
 
Nov 2, 2017
6,874
Shibuya
I definitely think people tend to get this way when a game supports skillful mastery of the game and they begin to excel in the higher difficulty environments. It's easy to understand how that experience can stick longer and make a more meaningful impact than the first flailing normal mode playthrough. Not sure I really agree with it, necessarily.
 

jetsetrez

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,956
It's just hardcore gamer circle-jerkery to make themselves feel superior to the casual plebs actually playing games for fun instead of doing so to prove their gamer cred. Like, there's a reason normal mode is called "NORMAL" mode, FFS.

PS. Soulsbournekiring games need an easy mode, and if they ruin the hard mode for you...even better.
Man, you're projecting hard. What a mean-spirited, cynical point of view. People play games for different reasons, both are perfectly fine.

I don't even play games on hard half the time; I usually only do after I've played them on standard/normal and if they're games I really like. But even still, I recognize and appreciate that good hard modes can actually bring out amazing elements of game design, and make some game experiences better by raising stakes, requiring you to think more about your strategy or take advantage of the full breadth of the game's systems.
 

thejpfin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,034
Finland
After completing Mass effect 1 and 2 on insanity for the first time somewhat recently, and now playing Mass effect 3 on insanity as well, I think that hardest difficulty for mass effect is the best way to experience the whole trilogy.

Considering how big threat reapers are in the story, it kinda makes sense to bump up the difficulty to the max. I mean reapers try to destroy all organic life, it doesn't make sense to easily stomp them.
After finishing up ME2 suicide mission on insanity, man that feels good.
 

solidr

Member
Oct 28, 2017
494
Hard Mode is the way Valkyrie profile is meant to be played, because the game is more easy in that mode :p
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,098
A good hard mode makes you utilize all options and tactics at your disposal. A bad is restrictive.

Fire Emblem is notorious for both. The worst ones, like Awakening, restrict all strategy to one right way with bullshit RNG and Stat inflation. Good ones like FE7 Hector Hard Mode focus more on unit placement, design, smarter AI and tactical thinking.
 

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,172
Minneapolis
Playing Halo titles on anything below Heroic is sacrilege. Might as well be Duck Hunt with a beloved, yet convoluted, narrative attached. But I'll never begrudge anyone else for doing it on normal or - god forbid - easy.

Play however you want, wherever you want. That's how gaming should be.

My favorite is Hades, which encourages harder difficulties, but allows you to tailor the challenge to your playstyle by choosing which options are harder. I also appreciate that in Tomb Raider (maybe just the last one?) where you could tailor the exploration, puzzles and combat each separately (but of course you max them out for pleasure, but also achievements!)
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,152
It's just hardcore gamer circle-jerkery to make themselves feel superior to the casual plebs actually playing games for fun instead of doing so to prove their gamer cred. Like, there's a reason normal mode is called "NORMAL" mode, FFS.

PS. Soulsbournekiring games need an easy mode, and if they ruin the hard mode for you...even better.

This is true in some cases but not all. Normal mode in a lot of games doesn't require you to interact it with any of the mechanics outside of the most basic and least engaging one.
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,511
Massachusetts
I think I've only ever heard anyone say this about Fire Emblem, but not about the actual difficulty modes, and instead insisting that people play with permadeath on. I've never agreed with that insistence, if only because those are games where randomness plays a massive role, like a 1% enemy critical hit activating and killing someone. If it were more like the FE mobile game where the battle mechanics are not random at all, then maybe it'd be a different story.

Good hard modes challenge the skills you've developed in easier difficulties, whether by taking away some of your tools or throwing you curveballs. Bad or unremarkable hard modes just turn the numbers up.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
It's impossible to put into words

You just know, when a hard mode is thrilling, exciting and challenging or mad bullshit
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,254
North Carolina
So, with that said, what differentiates a fun hard mode to a boring one?
One that's tuned very deliberately. Uncharted has always had shit hard modes because it's just raising enemy health and accuracy and lowering your health. Bleh! No thought put into the mode at all. Meanwhile like you mentioned, Kingdom Hearts; more specifically 2 and 3 become entirely different games on Critical mode. Everything from HP and MP values, to damage values as well as the abilities you start out with are all altered and adjusted to make it challenging, but fair experience. Playing KH2 not only on Critical, but with EXP Zero equiped shows just how fuckin genius the difficulty mode is as well as the work put into the single difficulty. It's a phenomenal and fair experience. The developers really put in the time to make a single extra hard mode work with the game systems present.
 

Jhey Cyphre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,152
It's impossible to put into words

You just know, when a hard mode is thrilling, exciting and challenging or mad bullshit

This is very true, thought most games do fall into the "bullshit" category because having an actually engaging hard mode requires actual effort on the developers end. Also, hard mode most of the time just means the first few hours of a game are incredibly frustrating before becoming incredibly easy. See nearly every single RPG released in the last 5 years.
 

YellowBara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,093
Anyone who was put off with how easy Dragon Quest 11 is really should give Draconian Mode settings a try. It's been said plenty but it really is totally different in its own way and you can even customize it.

The No Shopping rule made the game so much more fun for me since I had to actually care about enemy drops and the crafting system to get by.

Anyways as for the OP, I think it's really about how tedious the difficulty ends up being. Having to jump through a billion more hoops so that it feels more like a grindy timesink than actually being difficult sucks and isn't fun.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,165
If that were really the case, then it would be the only way to play those games. See: Souls games.
 

Chille

Member
Jan 7, 2018
2,034
Normal mode is the mode your supposed to be on if your just playing default because that's why it's called normal
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,152
Example of bad hard mode: Uncharted on crushing

Example of good hard mode: TLOU 1/2 on survivor
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,954
A big fan of modes that allow for increased damage for the player and enemies. Lethal saved Ghost of Tsushima for me.

Absolutely. Ghost of Tsushima HAS to be played on Lethal. It makes the combat way more fun.

Normal mode is the mode your supposed to be on if your just playing default because that's why it's called normal

Not really. Its the difficulty setting that the developer thinks most of the general audience will probably be able to handle and sometimes there can be differences in the same game in different regions even. i.e. see DMC 3 Japanese version vs The American version. The JP version of the game on Normal was the "Easy" mode in the original American version.