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What is the best metroidvania now?

  • Super Metroid

    Votes: 1,144 37.1%
  • Hollow Knight

    Votes: 943 30.6%
  • Castlevania: Symphony of the Night

    Votes: 793 25.7%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 203 6.6%

  • Total voters
    3,083

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,207
Ori 1 has quite mediocre level design, but Ori 2's is much improved.

Ori 2 isn't quite in the same league as Hollow Knight, but that's okay, it is still a great game and gets a 9/10 from me (I'd give Ori 1 a 6 or 7, it isn't even remotely close to being in the discussion IMO).
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
On the contrary, I rarely got lost, I just had to backtrack a lot. the statement about not feeling living or organic is absolute gibberish to me considering how Hollow Knights level design is almost entirely static and constructed at right angles, with much less movement in both characters and world.

Okay. Let me try and focus on one aspect and one example.

One NPC you meet in Hollow Knight tells you that they noticed that you wield your nail very well and that there is a place where warriors meet to test their might. That's it, no pop-up, no mark on your map, nothing.

You go around the world and you meet them again and they have different dialogue and tell you more about this kingdom.

Then when you are in Kingdom's Edge climbing this mostly vertical area, and one of the game's hardest areas, trying to fend off those infuriating bees-like creatures, and those jumping bugs, you get scared by warriors falling from the sky.

You go up, up, up to know the reason and you find the trials.

You are like Aha!!! that's what must he has meant.

And behold you find them there!

You do the trials, and later on, you find the same character killed on one of the platforms in Kingdom's Edge if you returned there.

That's a living world, characters that move and travel and die. It's a journey.

In Ori, a character tells you "a rumor", you get a pop-up, and then you get a mark on your map, and not once that rumor was false. You go there, and you find a shrine, or whatever. It's simply a quest in a very, very video-gamey way.

And this is one, very, very, minor example. I didn't mention anything about the many, many quests, the varied NPCs, the world-building, the deep and rich lore.

I have to admit, one of the most infuriating things to me about Ori is its limited number of NPCs. Like seriously, all the quests revolve around 4-5 characters that you meet in every area. It's so disappointing.
 

Urishizu

Dead Drop Studios Founder
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
885
Sorry, I gotta give it to SOTN. There's just something magical and perfect about SOTN. It's almost 25 years later and when I play it, it feels modern. Super Metroid is the exact same way. Hollow Knight is awesome, but it may just be nostalgia giving SOTN and Metroid the edge for me forever.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,742
I have to admit, one of the most infuriating things to me about Ori is its limited number of NPCs. Like seriously, all the quests revolve around 4-5 characters that you meet in every area. It's so disappointing.

You know Metroid basically has NO NPCs and Castlevania has 1 or 2 in important areas. Most games are like that and HK has more than most.
Having a hub area that has most characters is absolutely expected. If that is "infuriating" then maybe this genre was never your jam.
 

Panicky Duck

Member
Dec 14, 2020
449
Hollow Knight was such a blast to play. I love a game that asks me to plan and think about what to do next. Many times I would sit on the bench in Dirtmouth, meticulously poring over the map to find "leads" (aka unfinished areas on the map), plot out a course to get there, and delve into the unknown once again. It felt so immersive, and no other game has really given me that feeling since.
 

Aselith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,427
I feel like Bloodstained should be in this conversation as well as Portrait of Ruin. Those games are really amazing. What makes Hollow Knight better?
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
You know Metroid basically has NO NPCs and Castlevania has 1 or 2 in important areas. Most games are like that and HK has more than most.
Having a hub area that has most characters is absolutely expected. If that is "infuriating" then maybe this genre was never your jam.

I mean in a genre where exploration and progression take center stage, you'd expect characters to be more spread out. Also, I don't understand what you mean. Hollow Knight has Dirtmouth that serves as a hub area.

Are you asking me if I think that Metroid and Castlevania having little or NPCs is something to be held against them?

yes, I do.

For what it is worth, Metroidvania is probably my favorite genre.
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
Hard disagree, then. Metroid thrived on its themes of isolation.

Okay, sure. I will give you that. Metroid is going for isolation while Hollow Knight is going for a theme of a fallen kingdom, so they are different in what they are trying to convey.

I am interested to hear what you think about any of the other points I've raised.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,742
I am interested to hear what you think about any of the other points I've raised.

That's a lot to go over so maybe not right now. I already know you have very different priorities and hardline definitions for a genre that's always been pretty loose and afforded developers a lot of mechanical freedom. I do think the genre is the best its ever been as of late.
 

Wyze

Member
Nov 15, 2018
3,149
So hard to choose one but I went with SOTN. I love the rpg elements SOTN introduced to the genre.
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
That's a lot to go over so maybe not right now. I already know you have very different priorities and hardline definitions for a genre that's always been pretty loose and afforded developers a lot of mechanical freedom. I do think the genre is the best its ever been as of late.

Of course.

Thank you for taking the time my friend!

And yes, seeing so many metroidvanias come out every year recently is such a delight!
 

wolfshirt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,161
Los Angeles
Hollow Knight is a very fine love letter to Metroid/SotN.. but like most modern video games is in dire need of some kind of editing or condensing over the entirety of the experience for the sake of pacing.

The whole thing kind of buckles under the weight of it's updates and add ons. It's in no way as elegant as the experiences it aims to emulate.
 

DinoBlaster

Member
Feb 18, 2020
2,769
Hollow Knight is awesome but I'm still rolling with Super Metroid. The platforming is just too good, I love the momentum based running and jumping. It didn't yet adopt ledge grabbing (slows the flow of movement down) and sticky wall-jumping (makes no goddamn sense unless you're Spider-Man) that later games in the series opted for.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,448
The Ori games are solid but not nearly on the level of HK or the other genre greats. Even with the 2nd Ori game ripping off a bunch of HK mechanics, they did it in such a way that you could tell they didn't know what made them work to begin with.

No, I am talking about both games.

Let me put it like this:

Ori is structured as a video game, Hollow Knight is structured as a journey.

Ori has a lot of hand-holding, quality-of-life features, frequent saves, fast travels on the go, stats, you can get all upgrades on your map.

Hollow Knight drops you into this fallen kingdom, with 0 knowledge of what you have to do or where you should go. It has no objectives, no markers, no stats, no checklists, and even no map unless you buy one.

Just based on this ambiguous description, you can pretty much tell which game is closer to a metroidvania.

Ori is very lackluster as far as interconnectedness go, which is a fundamental and necessary feature for a game to be metroidvania. The map is large sure, but getting from point A to point B remains mostly linear

Hollow Knight is interconnected in such a satisfying way that when you explore the entirety of the map, each area is connected to 3 or 4 different areas. Ori hardly has that. By the way, that makes Hollow Knight's areas memorable. On the other hand, I just finished Ori and I can't name three areas for my life.

Also, I 100%'d Will of the Wisps on hard in 18 hours on my first try. To do that in Hollow Knight, I needed about 70 hours. I am pretty sure most people who are competent in those type of games had similar stats.

Like I said, not for one second I felt lost in both games of Ori. You know exactly what you should do or where you have to go while you get lost all the time in Hollow Knight, and yes that's to the detriment of the former and to the gains of the latter if we are judging them as metroidvanias.

Again, I really, really love Ori. It does so many better things than Hollow Knight, but you can't say it's a better Metroidvania.

It has amazing, bosses. Ori's final bass is more engaging than the Radiance and the Nightmare King. The platforming is deliciously fun, the environments are beautiful, the animation bursts with life. The enemies are more varied and challenging. The escape sequences, the wonderful score, the multi-phased boss fights. Ori never feels boring to control, never feels a chore to backtrack because the moment-to-moment gameplay is so much fun. Bash, triple jump, launch, the whip thing. Ori is amazing to control in the air too.

However, Hollow Knight does also many things very, very well that Ori are honestly abysmal at. Most of the charms are useless in Ori. Ori has almost non-existent lore and non-existent world-building.

Hollow Knight does this thing where the progress, the upgrades, and the world are organically tied together in such a beautiful way. The charms are dead bugs' wishes, the upgrades are tied to the areas and the lore. And God, for a game that wants to add quests, the fact that it only has 4-5 NPC with meaningful interactions is really, really bad. And this blue bird gives you most of the quests. That's honestly very disappointing. Hollow Knight has over, what, 30 different NPCs that you can have meaningful interactions with, and their dialogue differ depending on your progress. It is a very living world. Even on the level of the quality of writing, like the dialogue. Ori's dialogue is simplistic, and it is made by a studio. Hollow Knight's writing, is seriously impressive even more so since it is a game developed, designed, and written by mainly two guys.

Excellent post and I agree 100%. The Ori games are basically metroidvania framework but in practice they are extremely linear and the level design is very straight forward. The world design also feels so segmented and not natural.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,207
I do think the genre is the best its ever been as of late.
I agree with this. Also I think the fact that the two series in the genre's namesake are struggling so hard the last decade really sucks. Indie metroidvanias are beating the ever-loving shit out of both Metroid and Castlevania recently. Samus Returns is the best Metroid has done recently, and it was bland and lifeless game that was merely serviceable.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,742
The Ori games are solid but not nearly on the level of HK or the other genre greats. Even with the 2nd Ori game ripping off a bunch of HK mechanics, they did it in such a way that you could tell they didn't know what made them work to begin with.



Excellent post and I agree 100%. The Ori games are basically metroidvania framework but in practice they are extremely linear and the level design is very straight forward. The world design also feels so segmented and not natural.

What did it "rip off". This comes up every single time because you don't have the context for the inspiration they actually took. By this logic HK "ripped off" 5 different games.

Excellent post and I agree 100%. The Ori games are basically metroidvania framework but in practice they are extremely linear and the level design is very straight forward. The world design also feels so segmented and not natural.

This is demonstrably false, but I don't think anything I say is even being listened to on this forum most of the time.
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
The Ori games are solid but not nearly on the level of HK or the other genre greats. Even with the 2nd Ori game ripping off a bunch of HK mechanics, they did it in such a way that you could tell they didn't know what made them work to begin with.



Excellent post and I agree 100%. The Ori games are basically metroidvania framework but in practice they are extremely linear and the level design is very straight forward. The world design also feels so segmented and not natural.


Thank you!

Like I said, I am all for someone saying that Ori is a better game or a better experience than Hollow Knight. Both Ori games delivered and they both left a huge impression on me. They were a beautiful surprise. And the folks at Moon Studios should be vastly proud of themselves for creating such an exciting new IP for a 2D game that felt a breath of fresh air.

But to say that Ori is a good metroidvania experience, or better than Hollow Knight as a metroidvanias. I just can't see that.

About Will of the Wisps ripping off Hollow Knight. Thomas Mahler, the CEO of Moon Studios, has an account here. And he is such a nice and endearing guy. I was so happy that one time he replied to a thread of mine.
Around the time Will of the Wisps was released, he tried to refute that claim multiple times because, well, after Hollow Knight came out, any game that called itself a metroidvania had to contend with Hollow Knight (I think someone made even a video about that after the announcement of a game that was inspired by Hollow Knight to a blatant extent).

You can't say that they deliberately borrowed things from Hollow Knight. The big problem is that in Ori there is this character that you buy maps from, and there is a charms-like system. Both aspects are light versions of those you can find in Hollow Knight and you can't overlook the similarity, like it's just there.

That was one of the things that also left a sour taste in my mouth when I played Will of the Wisps.
 

Nekro

Member
Oct 30, 2017
102
Hollow Knight is easily the best of the genre, but super metroid is also an excellent game that is just suffers from some bad controls.

SOTN is an excellent game that paved the way for the genre to evolve but it did not age that well. Its a blast to play but suffers from powerleveling symptom.

Hollow knight offers a very balanced challenge (might be hard but the difficulty curves nicely), excellent controls and top notch gameplay and map design with a huge amount of content. Its almost perfection.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,742
About Will of the Wisps ripping off Hollow Knight. Thomas Mahler, the CEO of Moon Studios, has an account here. And he is such a nice and endearing guy. I was so happy that one time he replied to a thread of mine.
Around the time Will of the Wisps was released, he tried to refute that claim multiple times because, well, after Hollow Knight came out, any game that called itself a metroidvania had to contend with Hollow Knight (I think someone made even a video about that after the announcement of a game that was inspired by Hollow Knight to a blatant extent).

You can't say that they deliberately borrowed things from Hollow Knight. The big problem is that in Ori there is this character that you buy maps from, and there is a charms-like system. Both aspects are light versions of those you can find in Hollow Knight and you can't overlook the similarity, like it's just there.

That was one of the things that also left a sour taste in my mouth when I played Will of the Wisps.

nvm, shoulda started with this so people could just ignore you entirely. Even "theres a guy who sells maps!" was neither something new to the genre nor did it function similarly in each game at all. Should people be criticizing HK for using mechanics from Metroid or Dark Souls? no.... because it did its own thing just like Ori does.

Theres a really weird fanboy mentality around this game and I do vaguely remember some really dishonest threads....maybe it was yours.
I think Hollow Knight is more demonstrably derivative of existing games, but that's not even worth mentioning because that's what video games do in general.
 
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osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
nvm, shoulda started with this so people could just ignore you entirely. Even "theres a guy who sells maps!" was neither something new to the genre nor did it function similarly in each game at all. Should people be criticizing HK for using mechanics from Metroid or Dark Souls? no.... because it did its own thing just like Ori does.

Theres a really weird fanboy mentality around this game and I do vaguely remember some really dishonest threads....maybe it was yours

No, it didn't function similarly at all.

The map vendor in Will of the Wisps has like one or two lines of dialogue and it is a fairly straightforward interaction. Confier from Hollow Knight, on the other hand, is much more memorable. He has a store and a wife you can talk to. His dialogue is much more meaningful. He tells you about his favorite areas and the areas he didn't like. He is part of a larger map system. His humming is like a wave of relief that washes you over you when you get to a new area. You can also find him sleeping in his house after you buy all maps (again a world that has a life to it).

It's really hard to finish Hollow Knight without interacting with him because of how the map system works in Hollow Knight. Honestly, the map vendor in Will of the Wisps is a bit useless. You can keep exploring on your own with no need to buy one map (The hand-to-hand quest renders him even more redundant.)

I don't think I've ever made a thread about Hollow Knight.

I didn't say it's a bad thing. Hollow Knight takes inspiration from Dark Souls, Mega Man X, and of course Metroid and Castlevania and they are incorporated into the fabric of the game.

But yes, it felt like Ori tacked those systems on after Hollow Knight found success with them, but I haven't the slightest idea if that was the case. They were nothing like them in The Blind Forest. And I was a bit disappointed by that.

Speaking of the Blind Forest, the bash ability and the create-your-checkpoint system were both unique additions that I was happy to see.

Again, my friend, my argument is not that the Ori games are bad games, it's just that they are not very good metroidvanias.
 
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Comet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,532
I can pick up and beat Super Metroid and SotN over and over again and yet Hollow Knight bored me too tears and I wanted to like it soooo badly. Maybe I'll try again… (for like the fourth time)
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,742
But yes, it felt like Ori tacked those systems on after Hollow Knight found success with them, but I haven't the slightest idea if that was the case. They were nothing like them in The Blind Forest. And I was a but disappointed by that.

Do you have any proof that it "tacked on" systems after Hollow Knight found success (it found success long after launch iirc)? Much of Wisps was very "unlike Blind forest" in general.
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
Do you have any proof that it "tacked on" systems after Hollow Knight found success (it found success long after launch iirc)? Much of Wisps was very "unlike Blind forest" in general.

I don't. I plainly said that in my post. It's an observation. Anyone who played Will of the Wisps after Hollow Knight cannot unsee that.

Hollow Knight found success immediately after its launch as a PC exclusive, but it exploded after it was released on consoles and especially the Switch. I played it before it hit consoles and people who played it on PC knew it is a hit.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,448
What did it "rip off". This comes up every single time because you don't have the context for the inspiration they actually took. By this logic HK "ripped off" 5 different games.

Every game in a genre is using a similar base, that's true. However I don't see how someone could play the first Ori, then HK, then Ori 2 and not come away thinking that they took mechanics from HK. It's blatantly obvious.

Thank you!

About Will of the Wisps ripping off Hollow Knight. Thomas Mahler, the CEO of Moon Studios, has an account here. And he is such a nice and endearing guy. I was so happy that one time he replied to a thread of mine.
Around the time Will of the Wisps was released, he tried to refute that claim multiple times because, well, after Hollow Knight came out, any game that called itself a metroidvania had to contend with Hollow Knight (I think someone made even a video about that after the announcement of a game that was inspired by Hollow Knight to a blatant extent).

You can't say that they deliberately borrowed things from Hollow Knight. The big problem is that in Ori there is this character that you buy maps from, and there is a charms-like system. Both aspects are light versions of those you can find in Hollow Knight and you can't overlook the similarity, like it's just there.

That was one of the things that also left a sour taste in my mouth when I played Will of the Wisps.

I am aware of that, as this topic has come up and been discussed on the forum before. However, considering he goes back and forth over if HK was an influence or not, brags about his game's sales compared to HK, and goes out of his way every time it comes up to throw in a line about he actually really doesn't like Hollow Knight, I really don't take any of it into consideration.

The original Ori was a platformer focused metroid style game with mostly ranged attacks and a beautiful artstyle. Hollow Knight came out after and got wide critical and user acclaim, built a huge fanbase and community, and was overall a huge success story for a tiny team of 3 people. Ori 2 came out after and they had changed their main design to be more quick melee slash attack focused and less platforming, a charm system that even though he says is inspired by FF7 is visually and conceptually much more closer to HKs, a map vendor, a hub town with quests that fills in with people as you progress, etc. None of these things were invented wholesale by HK but they definitely were an influence into Ori 2.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,170
Wakayama
I really really wanted to like Hollow Knight but I absolutely loathed the combat's hitboxes requiring me to get so up close and personal with every bloody enemy. I didn't get very far sadly, despite liking the exploration. The combat just ain't for me.
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
Maybe don't speak for other people than yourself. I didn't for a second get reminded of Hollow Knight while playing that game.

Fair enough. I will speak for myself and grandmedjey

Every game in a genre is using a similar base, that's true. However I don't see how someone could play the first Ori, then HK, then Ori 2 and not come away thinking that they took mechanics from HK. It's blatantly obvious.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,448
I really really wanted to like Hollow Knight but I absolutely loathed the combat's hitboxes requiring me to get so up close and personal with every bloody enemy. I didn't get very far sadly, despite liking the exploration. The combat just ain't for me.

There are some charms you can get to increase your nail's range if you ever pick it up again:
1000
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,742
a poll of 800 plus votes over a maybe 50 for Ori should tell you which game left a stronger impression on people.

Now we're arguing a tiny sample size from Era as an authority on literally anything? If we want to be insincere we can look at metacritics or whatever.
Also has nothing to do with accusations of "stealing" game mechanics. We have not only bizarre claims on game development, but also "if you don't believe its the best you're blinded by nostalgia". I have no other way of describing it but cringe.
 

Phil32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,569
I really enjoyed Hollow Knight, but I don't think it's an overly accessible game that I can easily jump into and enjoy. There's a bit of a learning curve, or at least there was for me. That doesn't mean Metroidvanias necessarily need to accessible to be the best--that isn't me trying to paint that picture as some objective truth. For me, being able to jump in and enjoy almost immediately is important to me for really most games I play, and Hollow Knight wasn't that for me. Plus, I didn't really LOVE all of the backtracking or Dark Souls influence. That said, Hollow Knight is an easy A- for me if I had to grade it. Loved it and everything else about the game. It's a masterfully crafted title, and I do look forward to replaying it sometime soon.

Regardless, I did enjoy Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night more, and even Metroid: Zero Mission and Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom more as well. But I don't think I could list the "best" Metroidvania for me. I haven't played a massive amount, and there are so many variables and things I like about some of my favorites that others lack, and vice versa. I think I just rambled here. ha Sorry about that!
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,742
no. I am talking that the poll don't lie, at which game had a stronger impression on people. I don't know about "stealing" part.

Im not seeing why this poll is indicative of any kind of objectivity, even if it was representative of more than 0.01% of people who played Metroidvania games.

Yeah, your posts are.

I'm kinda shocked at how nice and polite osnameless has been to you since the start of your discussion, I'd have lost my patience ages ago.

Guy with Hollow Knight avatar isn't amused, shocking.
 

4CornersTHSA

Member
Jun 13, 2019
1,558
I agree with this. Also I think the fact that the two series in the genre's namesake are struggling so hard the last decade really sucks. Indie metroidvanias are beating the ever-loving shit out of both Metroid and Castlevania recently. Samus Returns is the best Metroid has done recently, and it was bland and lifeless game that was merely serviceable.

This, 100%.

I'm stoked as hell to play Metroid V and Metroid Prime 4 when they're out, but I'm just as pumped for Hollow Knight Silksong and Axiom Verge 2.

Regardless of over-under hype, one cannot deny that indies like Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge, Ori, and a slew of others have carried the torch of this genre while Nintendo and Konami have done little to nothing (respectively) in years.

I hope much like Aomuma and the Zelda team took inspiration from not just the original LOZ but also looked around at Skyrim, Far Cry, Assassins Creed etc to see what and what not to do when crafting BOTW, Sakamoto and Tanabe did the same with both 2D and 3D Metroid and absolutely crush it.
 

Deleted member 68874

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 10, 2020
10,441
I went to back to Hollow Knight after dropping it previously and yeah...

Hollow Knight ain't even a good game let alone near the top of its genre.
 

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,588
Im not seeing why this poll is indicative of any kind of objectivity, even if it was representative of more than 0.01% of people who played Metroidvania games.

here are the total of people that played Ori.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game?id=46428

and here hollow knight.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game?id=26286

In the same manner you can go to any page. Steam, meta critic and so forth. Ori doesn't have the impact that hollow knight does, Ori don't pull people like hollow knight did, Ori does not have the impact that hollow knight had.
 

GoldenFlex

Alt Account
Banned
May 7, 2021
2,900
Hollow Knight is okay, but definitely not up in the top imo even of the modern ones games like Ori 1 and 2 were better