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jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
to clarify: are you a lawyer?
No I am not. I do have a bachelors and a masters in criminal justice and currently work in a court house in LA. I am NOT an expert at all but I do have a pretty strong foundation to work off of. I know we do have lawyers here so I'd love to hear what they think.

What is this? Literally everyone says he was reimbursed. They know the amounts per month he was being paid back. This check was for that amount.

Do you think they can't see his bank accounts? Do you really think there is doubt here?
You don't understand how our criminal justice system works, do you?
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
You can build a case for circumstantial evidence beyond mere testimony and I imagine that is what we will see happen tomorrow. Just wait.
Oh of course. I was merely commenting on what cohen's evidence alone meant. Hopefully more is to come. But saying others said this is what its for on CNN one time isn't testimony and certainly isn't evidence.

I do a decent job figuring it out by simply reading the actual documents and not just making cynical assumptions when I have no idea what's happening.
Are you sure about that? Because you repeating people saying stuff on cnn = evidence that proves this is what the money was used for is exactly you not knowing what is happening. Thats not how the criminal justice system works haha.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Oh of course. I was merely commenting on what cohen's evidence alone meant. Hopefully more is to come. But saying others said this is what its for on CNN one time isn't testimony and certainly isn't evidence.


Are you sure about that? Because you repeating people saying stuff on cnn = evidence that proves this is what the money was used for is exactly you not knowing what is happening. Thats not how the criminal justice system works haha.

We have charging documents and plea deals! Please actually pay attention.

We know he was reimbursed. This is not a question. We know on what schedule he was reimbursed and in what amounts. If we can see the same amount being deposited into his account for that agreed to sum of money at the agreed interval, and some of the months match up with checks signed by Donald Trump...what kind of genius CSI investigator do we all need to connect these dots? Was it just a random check from Trump that just happens to be for the same amount he was getting, in a month where he didn't also get that same amount from the other mystery source?
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,482
Oh of course. I was merely commenting on what cohen's evidence alone meant. Hopefully more is to come. But saying others said this is what its for on CNN one time isn't testimony and certainly isn't evidence.


Are you sure about that? Because you repeating people saying stuff on cnn = evidence that proves this is what the money was used for is exactly you not knowing what is happening. Thats not how the criminal justice system works haha.

But Cohen's evidence isn't just his testimony. The documents alone can be independently verified in a number of ways beyond Cohen testifying what their purpose is. If the investigation of the evidence can lead to a corroboration of Cohen's testimony, you can build a case of circumstantial evidence in support of it, at least to a reasonable degree of certainty, which will be all that is needed to impeach Trump.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
But Cohen's evidence isn't just his testimony. The documents alone can be independently verified in a number of ways beyond Cohen testifying what their purpose is. If the investigation of the evidence can lead to a corroboration of Cohen's testimony, you can build a case of circumstantial evidence in support of it, at least to a reasonable degree of certainty, which will be all that is needed to impeach Trump.

Trump is already 2 years into his term. I honestly don't think anything could ever work fast enough to impeach him, unless he has a second term.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
We have charging documents and plea deals! Please actually pay attention.

We know he was reimbursed. This is not a question. We know on what schedule he was reimbursed and in what amounts. If we can see the same amount being deposited into his account for that agreed to sum of money at the agreed interval, and some of the months match up with checks signed by Donald Trump...what kind of genius CSI investigator do we all need to connect these dots? Was it just a random check from Trump that just happens to be for the same amount he was getting, in a month where he didn't also get that same amount from the other mystery source?
Sigh

Others making plea deals is not evidence of Trump's misdeeds. Its not about me not paying attention but your misconception about what that actually means.

And again, I laid out what circumstantial evidence is for you and youre doing a wonderful job of showing why its a secondary metric to which we use as a basis for determining guilt. Youre making inferences. Lots of them. If you need to connect the dots, its circumstantial evidence. That alone is not going to stick here. You would need irrefutable proof, of which doesn't depend on Cnn statements and payments to the man's personal lawyer to show directly that he did this for this to be considered hard evidence. The fact youre coming up with secondary explanations to what this means, even if youre doing so sarcastically, is precisely why we use actual evidence as the basis for convictions as opposed to making a bunch of leaps of logic and testimony from one person. What youre suggesting is that our CJS hasn't evolved to a system any more sophisticated than what we used during the salem witch trials when what "everyone knew" was used as the basis to start convicting innocent people of witchcraft. I really dont know how to be any more clear here that thats just NOT how any of this works.

But Cohen's evidence isn't just his testimony. The documents alone can be independently verified in a number of ways beyond Cohen testifying what their purpose is. If the investigation of the evidence can lead to a corroboration of Cohen's testimony, you can build a case of circumstantial evidence in support of it, at least to a reasonable degree of certainty, which will be all that is needed to impeach Trump.
Again I'm not disagreeing with that. This is obviously going to be a piece to fit in with the overall investigation. I was just hoping for more from Cohen alone given that he was the man's personal lawyer.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,482
Trump is already 2 years into his term. I honestly don't think anything could ever work fast enough to impeach him, unless he has a second term.

Well there's impeachment proceedings, and then there's removal from office. The latter might not happen soon, but I do think it's likely he will be impeached if there's a solid case that can implicate him.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,482
is precisely why we use actual evidence as the basis for convictions as opposed to making a bunch of leaps of logic and testimony from one person.

If this were true, we wouldn't have so many black men wrongfully convicted of a crime on the account of a white woman's testimony. The law is not carried out perfectly, as I'm sure you're aware.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Well there's impeachment proceedings, and then there's removal from office. The latter might not happen soon, but I do think it's likely he will be impeached if there's a solid case that can implicate him.
Thats bold given republicans control the senate and I don't expect them to grow a spine or find out what morality is anytime soon.

If this were true, we wouldn't have so many black men wrongfully convicted of a crime on the account of a white woman's testimony. The law is not carried out perfectly, as I'm sure you're aware.
And Trump is not a black man but an incredibly privileged white male who holds the highest position in the country and is protected by a crooked party of government that controls the mechanism of impeachment along with a conservative supreme court. I'm not naive to the faults of the justice system (race and gender were my areas of focus in school), I just understand how it works for people like Trump.
 

MisterSnrub

Member
Mar 10, 2018
5,910
Someplace Far Away
"Mr. Trump is a racist. The country has seen Mr. Trump court white supremacists and bigots. You have heard him call poorer countries "shitholes".

In private, he is even worse.

He once asked me if I could name a country run by a black person that wasn't a "shithole". This was when Barack Obama was President of the United States.

While we were once driving through a struggling neighbourhood in Chicago, he commented that only black people could live that way.

And, he told me black people would never vote for him because they were too stupid.

And yet I continued to work for him"

😶
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,482
And Trump is not a black man but an incredibly privileged white male who holds the highest position in the country and is protected by a crooked party of government that controls the mechanism of impeachment along with a conservative supreme court. I'm not naive to the faults of the justice system (race and gender were my areas of focus in school), I just understand how it works for people like Trump.

I don't disagree, but I found your general statement of how we handle convictions to not really reflect the reality of the criminal justice system, even if what you say applies in some cases.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Sigh

Others making plea deals is not evidence of Trump's misdeeds. Its not about me not paying attention but your misconception about what that actually means.

And again, I laid out what circumstantial evidence is for you and youre doing a wonderful job of showing why its a secondary metric to which we use as a basis for determining guilt. Youre making inferences. Lots of them. If you need to connect the dots, its circumstantial evidence. That alone is not going to stick here. You would need irrefutable proof, of which doesn't depend on Cnn statements and payments to the man's personal lawyer to show directly that he did this for this to be considered hard evidence. The fact youre coming up with secondary explanations to what this means, even if youre doing so sarcastically, is precisely why we use actual evidence as the basis for convictions as opposed to making a bunch of leaps of logic and testimony from one person.

This is a ridiculous understanding of evidence.

The government alleges Cohen violated campaign finance law. The government alleges Cohen was reimbursed for these contributions. Guiliani, who is Individual-1's lawyer, and Michael Cohen, who is the defendant, also say this is what happened. It is NOT IN QUESTION and is not merely statements made on television.

We know what he was paid and when. Investigators have all of his financial records. The idea that a check for the precise amount he was owed being paid on the schedule by which it was owed by the person for whom the service was performed isn't evidence is hilarious.

"Your honor, we know the defendant:

a - has a hammer
b - went to the store where this hammer was sold
c - has a charge in the exact amount the hammer costs at that store -
d - on the day we all agree he obtained the hammer

but it's mere speculation this charge is for that hammer."
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,426
Sigh

Others making plea deals is not evidence of Trump's misdeeds. Its not about me not paying attention but your misconception about what that actually means.

And again, I laid out what circumstantial evidence is for you and youre doing a wonderful job of showing why its a secondary metric to which we use as a basis for determining guilt. Youre making inferences. Lots of them. If you need to connect the dots, its circumstantial evidence. That alone is not going to stick here. You would need irrefutable proof, of which doesn't depend on Cnn statements and payments to the man's personal lawyer to show directly that he did this for this to be considered hard evidence. The fact youre coming up with secondary explanations to what this means, even if youre doing so sarcastically, is precisely why we use actual evidence as the basis for convictions as opposed to making a bunch of leaps of logic and testimony from one person.
Circumstantial evidence is "actual" evidence. Not sure what your point is here ultimately as Trump isn't going to be charged in a court for this (at least until he's left office) and impeachment doesn't deal with legal standards - Republicans aren't going to impeach him over this even if Trump admitted the check was reimbursement for the hush money.

Which, like, Rudy - in his capacity as Trump's lawyer - already went on TV and told the nation Trump paid the hush money by funneling it through his lawyer, the same story that's alleged by SDNY in Cohen's plea deal. Not sure why we're treating this as a big unknown. The current defense from Trump is that it wasn't a campaign finance violation, not that it never happened. Proving the criminal intent is the hard part, which the check isn't going to prove one way or another unless Trump wrote "thanks for doing the crimes for me" on the memo line.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I don't disagree, but I found your general statement of how we handle convictions to not really reflect the reality of the criminal justice system, even if what you say applies in some cases.
It reflects the reality for how it works with the individual in question which is Trump. Rich white men get the idealized version of what it should represent. And even then, they may even get more than that.
This is a ridiculous understanding of evidence.

The government alleges Cohen violated campaign finance law. The government alleges Cohen was reimbursed for these contributions. Guiliani, who is Individual-1's lawyer, and Michael Cohen, who is the defendant, also say this is what happened. It is NOT IN QUESTION and is not merely statements made on television.

We know what he was paid and when. Investigators have all of his financial records. The idea that a check for the precise amount he was owed being paid on the schedule by which it was owed by the person for whom the service was performed isn't evidence is hilarious.

"Your honor, we know the defendant:

a - has a hammer
b - went to the store where this hammer was sold
c - has a charge in the exact amount the hammer costs at that store -
d - on the day we all agree he obtained the hammer

but it's mere speculation this charge is for that hammer."
I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you because youre not processing what Ive said, and frankly, youre just wrong. I work in a courthouse. I read criminal dockets and records for a living. You don't know what youre talking about.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
It reflects the reality for how it works with the individual in question which is Trump. Rich white men get the idealized version of what it should represent. And even then, they may even get more than that.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you because youre not processing what Ive said, and frankly, youre just wrong. I work in a courthouse. I read criminal dockets and records for a living. You don't know what youre talking about.

I'm not wrong and I'm certainly not misunderstanding you. Your understanding of the situation and the relevant details is poor.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Circumstantial evidence is "actual" evidence. Not sure what your point is here ultimately as Trump isn't going to be charged in a court for this (at least until he's left office) and impeachment doesn't deal with legal standards - Republicans aren't going to impeach him over this even if Trump admitted the check was reimbursement for the hush money.

Which, like, Rudy - in his capacity as Trump's lawyer - already went on TV and told the nation Trump paid the hush money by funneling it through his lawyer, the same story that's alleged by SDNY in Cohen's plea deal. Not sure why we're treating this as a big unknown. The current defense from Trump is that it wasn't a campaign finance violation, not that it never happened. Proving the criminal intent is the hard part, which the check isn't going to prove one way or another unless Trump wrote "thanks for doing the crimes" on the memo line.
It is a secondary level of evidence but it is not direct evidence. My point was exactly that he wont be charged for this (while in office like you said) nor was I suggesting the senate was responsbile for upholding the same standard of proof as the cjs was.

Rudy's statment means nothing. Lets get that out of the way. It wasn't testimony. He can literally say whatever he wants to on CNN but that doesn't count for some added evidence against Trump.The last part you wrote is literally the same thing I said like a page or two back haha.

I'm not wrong and I'm certainly not misunderstanding you. Your understanding of the situation and the relevant details is poor.
Sure jan. (youre wrong).
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Yeah Rudy's statements as Trump's lawyer on TV cannot be used by any court just like Trump's tweets can't be. That's just lawfacts.
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,832


Philip Rucker @PhilipRucker

Just in: Rudy Giuliani calls Cohen testimony "pathetic" in text message to Washington Post and says, "If you believe him you are a fool."

1:21 AM - Feb 27, 2019

d0zd-z3uwaab0ueyikcp.jpg
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,070
Hear it for yourself then when that's the level the sink to tomorrow.
You do have a point about the Senate.

I still don't think he gets out of all this unscathed.

At least the Senate is at odds with him about other things. Asking them to have dignity and to do the right thing might indeed be a stretch though.

As far as his base and pundits go though, I don't care at all as they're a waste of time.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,714
twitter storm should start in the next 60 minutes.

This will be fun.

and I want to frame this:
K41MjRQ.png

You know, I have problems with my dad, but I have to wonder what it must be like to live with and work for a father that is this open about his absolute disdain for you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,070
You know, I have problems with my dad, but I have to wonder what it must be like to live with and work for a father that is this open about his absolute disdain for you.
Saw a documentary on Trump last night and this reminds me of his dad's negative feelings towards his brother.

He became an alcoholic and died at 40 something.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,975
Fox News will probably run with this quote all day:

"MICHAEL COHEN TESTIMONY: I am sorry for my lies and for lying to Congress."
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,832


Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

Michael Cohen was one of many lawyers who represented me (unfortunately). He had other clients also. He was just disbarred by the State Supreme Court for lying & fraud. He did bad things unrelated to Trump. He is lying in order to reduce his prison time. Using Crooked's lawyer!

4:08 AM - Feb 27, 2019
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria


Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

Michael Cohen was one of many lawyers who represented me (unfortunately). He had other clients also. He was just disbarred by the State Supreme Court for lying & fraud. He did bad things unrelated to Trump. He is lying in order to reduce his prison time. Using Crooked's lawyer!

4:08 AM - Feb 27, 2019

Is he.. Is he using "Crooked" as a first name, referring to First Name Crooked Last Name Hillary?
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,942
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