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Wiibomb

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,713
Bought the Welcome Pack to acquire Deathwing. Haven't found a use for it yet, but it's a cool card.

Opening my first pack I finally got Lord Jaraxxus, whom I've always wanted! I've been running him in my Warlock deck, and he's been awesome so far. I don't think any net decks are using him, so I believe he's catching people off guard.

deathwing for some reason always finds a way in the meta at the start of year when sets rotate out, I've seen it 2 times now, it might get use next april.

also, jaraxxus is awesome, specially against control decks, right now guldan is just far better but when that hero card rotates out it might be time for jaraxxus to shine again
 

Fer

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,023
Jaraxxus is the best. He's the first legendary I got in the game. I would use him in all my decks.
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
Jaraxxus is the best. He's the first legendary I got in the game. I would use him in all my decks.

He was fantastic at release, but all the other Death Knights are just so much better. My classic Hearthstone legendary MVP is probably Nozdormu. I love his effect. I mainly play arena and there's nothing better than playing someone who's been roping you every turn and unexpectedlly dropping Nozdormu and your opponent misses their next tunr.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,030
He was fantastic at release, but all the other Death Knights are just so much better. My classic Hearthstone legendary MVP is probably Nozdormu. I love his effect. I mainly play arena and there's nothing better than playing someone who's been roping you every turn and unexpectedlly dropping Nozdormu and your opponent misses their next tunr.

I think my favorite Classic legendary is Tirion, although Jaraxxus and Van Cleef are up there too. It's still pretty shocking to me that Tirion isn't really viable anymore. It has as much to do with Paladin being an aggro class ATM as it does the gradual power creep, but still!

Edit: I somehow forgot my actual favorite Classic legendary, Sylvanas. My queen being relegated to classic is slowly removing her from my memory. :'(
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,826
This month's off meta decks look interesting.
Even mech hunter
Tempo priest
Aggro shaman

https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/22552049/off-meta-report-october-2-2018
Gave the even mech Hunter a shot since I had been playing my own even Hunter for a while. I really enjoy it. Since my version is a little more control, it's really fun to play a way more aggressive version. Warlock is probably the most fun class to play against because they just seem so conflicted on whether to tap or not lol. Rogue, paladin, mage, and Hunter are all fun and frantic races. Druid is actually beatable if they don't draw perfect (which they always do). Warrior seems impossible. Haven't played against any priests yet. Even Shaman seems like a loss and Shudder shaman is annoying but doable.
 

Wiibomb

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,713
Vicious syndicate continues to impress me, they are so good at interpreting data.

They must have some pretty good statisticians in their team and I really hope Team 5 have people of that same skill because they really need them
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,434
BTW, Brode's new studio, Second Dinner, put up a job posting stating that they are making a deep game "optimized for mobile." Nothing says it will or will not be a card game.
 

Miletius

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,257
Berkeley, CA
One thing that makes it even more frustrating is that polarity has a hugely disproportionate effect on the lower-mid ranks than anywhere else, which might be contributing to Hearthstone's player count woes right now. At high levels, you can expect that people have invested enough in the game that they can switch to a less "polarizing" matchup should they experience a lot of losses. At the very low ranks (new player ranks) people don't have the cards to optimize so it doesn't matter. At the lower midrange though you often have people that have one or two optimized decks. These people will suffer the most from polarizing matchups and, perhaps, be more inclined to quit because of it. The bottom is gonna fall out if Team 5 doesn't get it's act together and provide meaningful alternatives to this meta.
 

Deleted member 4367

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,226
I think players have proven they want polarized matchups. They want to play matches that have them very favored even if that means auto losses in other matchups.

Just play 10-20 rank wild and you will find that out very very quickly.

Tons of kingsbane and mill rogue, tons of ultra greedy control that can only ever beat normal control.
 

Wiibomb

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,713
I think players have proven they want polarized matchups. They want to play matches that have them very favored even if that means auto losses in other matchups.

Just play 10-20 rank wild and you will find that out very very quickly.

Tons of kingsbane and mill rogue, tons of ultra greedy control that can only ever beat normal control.

I agree that people have been asking for this, actually I think if anything, team 5 made this meta because of what people have been complaining after the yogg meta, but as with governments, I don't think team 5 should hear and do everything the public wants, it's a very thin thread to walk, but they need to figure out what to hear and what not to.

like... add some damn modes for once, that's something they should absolutely hear.
 

Flaurehn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,362
Mexico City
All 4 sets before Boomsday introduced mechanics that enabled and greatly escalated the core issue behind polarization: lack of meaningful counterplay

So much this, I was talking to my brothers the other day about this, I feel this is the most varied meta ever because all classes are viable, but is both the most boring and frustrating it ever was because now you are just playing solitaire agains opponents that do the same, you just race to your winning condition without worrying about the choices your opponent make
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,434
I think players have proven they want polarized matchups. They want to play matches that have them very favored even if that means auto losses in other matchups.

Just play 10-20 rank wild and you will find that out very very quickly.

Tons of kingsbane and mill rogue, tons of ultra greedy control that can only ever beat normal control.
Was it you or someone else who was always saying that HS players love nothing more than the chance to high roll? Because it's definitely true.
 

Deleted member 4367

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,226
Was it you or someone else who was always saying that HS players love nothing more than the chance to high roll? Because it's definitely true.


Yeah that is definitely something I believe.

Just look at decks like renounce darkness of academic espionage. People play super bad decks just because 1/10 times they high roll into a hilariously op win.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I think there's a pretty large middle ground between Start of Game effects making every game extremely similar, and a game deciding dice roll, having the overpowered 1 mana aggro card in your opening hand, or your one infinite value card in the top half of your deck.

That said, I'm definitely surprised start of game ended up being worse for the game than a lot of the hated luck stuff of the past. I can understand the designers being as caught off guard by that as the players.
 

Majiebeast

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,090
Donais reaction

I am glad you made a few comments explaining that polarized does not mean bad. Your article reads quite differently though. You should probably discuss the pros and cons of it so that players don't all jump on the zero polarity bandwagon.

A good version of this article talks about why it is good and why it is bad, objectively. I am sure if every deck was a midrange minion focused deck people would be complaining about how boring the meta is.
 

Majiebeast

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,090
If that's all he said, that response comes across as incredibly condescending.

"I'm going to dismiss your massive amount of statistics, interpretation, and commentary offhand. A good version of this article, since yours is clearly NOT good, would be like this instead..."

Its the only thing i can see as dev reactions in the reddit thread.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I guess it is kinda easy to get caught up in game balance statistics as if that's the objective answer to how fun or unfun a game is. It's just tempting because it feels like unarguable scientific proof. Post nerf WW was one of my favorite periods of the game, which even in wild was probably more polarized than past metas I hated. So I kinda take back my previous post.

Polarization is probably a tad too high right now, but i doubt that's the primary reason people are leaving. The much bigger reason is probably that the game hasn't changed enough for a very long time. Not just that it's the same modes, but same cards as well.

How many games have been decided by Guldan, Rexxar, Aluneth, Oakheart, Spreading Plague for the past year? They feel like such similar games to how they felt when first released so long ago. It's great they're all balanced enough to all be allowed to exist at the same time, but that doesn't make it fun to still see them.

Baku and Shudderwock made WW just new enough to get by, but certainly can't carry the game into this expansion where nothing is all that new to the meta. I liked WW, but I played enough of it that there had to be something new to keep me going, but it felt like all this expansion did is entrench old decks even further, for standard and wild.
 
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Fer

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,023
Funny that I remember people liked UNG and it's closer in their metric to WW and TBP than to MSG.
Was it because everyone was tired of pirate warrior and because we got rotation?
 

Wiibomb

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,713
Funny that I remember people liked UNG and it's closer in their metric to WW and TBP than to MSG.
Was it because everyone was tired of pirate warrior and because we got rotation?

that's actually curious, I don't remember ungoro being anywhere near this polarizing and I think it is because there were some polarizing matchups that skyrocketed the statistics like quest rogue or freeze mage...
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
But Mike is right..... it's like this community has extremely short memory and doesn't remember "curvestone" at all. We've been there too and when it comes to minion combat your decision might actually matter less as first player/attacker has an inherent advantage over the defender in these scenarios. That's not limited to HS, MTG is same. I think right now there is a lot of decision making involved actually, sure some of the decks are bad but that's more because of the format. If we had class ban on ladder like in tournaments then it would be a completely different story.

Polarized match ups and counter should exist to an extent, it's maybe too much now but the idea of just making everything midrange is also BS. You can't have a deck that is good against everything because that's probably broken, like druid is almost there. It's good against most common decks or that it has barely any unwinnable game by doing druid things, guess what, people widely think it's broken. The only way they can address the issue overall is to change the format of the ladder. You build a deck with a strategy in mind, ban you think it's unwinnable for you and try. This adds more strategy and skill to the game and makes deck building more rewarding. No one deck/class can become 30 percent of meta with inflated winrate either because that way you only end up playing mirror matches and end up 50 percent winrate because everyone else bans you but you can't ban yourself. They should add that you can't ban mirrors, this will help keeping mm time in check. They have a huge playbase they shouldn't have any concern for queue times really. This is the fastest game to find a match out there.


Just because you have some data and graphs and present it in a nice looking format doesn't make your article good. Their analysis and conclusion is pretty bull so I totally get why he might be upset because the author is riling up people against them while knowing nothing about what they are exactly addressing. It's very common in scientific circles so I'm used to seeing nice looking papers from students that are fundamentally wrong and were written on false assumptions and reached the conclusion author wanted and not what actually is there. Here the article is written on the basis that polarized match ups are bad and here is data we have polarized match ups! That's not how you do it.
 
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Fer

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,023
I still think we need something to keep people occupied after the honeymoon phase of each expansion. Aim first for a big event 2 months after release and then make 2 big events between expansions.

Open a new "rotating" format, keep dual class arena, add a sealed mode, force 15 second turns, make a meme format. Force temporary "nerfs" to shale up the meta. Just keep things varied so people can do stuff outside ladder.

Also, make the rankings more prominent.

EDIT: tournament mode online and offline needs to be addressed too.

Just keep the thing varied rotating big events constantly. It happened when they delayed the puzzle labs, they just need to fill a monthly calendar.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,686
Just because you have some data and graphs and present it in a nice looking format doesn't make your article good. Their analysis and conclusion is pretty bull so I totally get why he might be upset...
Problem #1: Would you please explain in more detail why "their analysis and conclusion is pretty bull"? They spent a massive amount of time and analysis on the article, and dismissing it very briefly without explaining how the analysis and conclusion is bad seems highly questionable. Or was your second paragraph intended to address their entire analysis and conclusion?

...because the author is riling up people against them while knowing nothing about what they are exactly addressing.
Problem #2: Are you suggesting Vicious Syndicate, of all websites, knows nothing about what they are addressing or how to analyze it? If they know nothing, who possibly knows more? Why do you believe they know nothing?

Here the article is written on the basis that polarized match ups are bad and here is data we have polarized match ups! That's not how you do it.
Problem #3: The article is written to answer the question they clearly give at the start: "The Rock/Paper/Scissors sentiment was brought up numerous times throughout Hearthstone's history, but does Boomsday truly stand out from other meta's? They reference the sense of hopelessness that players express, which has shown up in the GAF/Era threads, and attempt to analyze the data. The answer is that yes, this expansion does stand out in that regard.
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
The article is going ham on their card designers near the end which is pretty offensive to a designer because the author doesn't know anything about card design either and what their article does in essence is confirming the bias that already exists in the community but not covering the other aspects of the issue, inherently presenting that yeah what you feel is bad because bad card design! You might not like the feeling of how things play out now (some others do) but that doesn't mean the sets were bad or that the opposite is what you want, we had the opposite, people hated that too, more even. It felt even more coin flippy even if the stats were not as bad, it actually felt far worse because you effectively lost in 2-3 turns and with initial draws more often than not. We had people complaining for long that we never get to 10 mana for example or that a game of HS ends before turn 7. These were the "common sentiment" two years ago.

In the end the author is putting all the blame on card designers which is unfair and dismisses why their approach to these cards have legitimate thinking behind them, promoting countless replies from fools on reddit directly attacking the developers because it presents the designers as idiots. "Look how these cards obviously promoting RPS! and RPS is bad you hate it don't you! these last four sets are all like that!" That's this article. Just because it's written in nice language doesn't mean it good, it straight up calling them you don't know how to make the game, learn from this ...ok.... They are trying to change the feeling of the game and this is what they've done instead of playing it safe and that's why they made these cards, not everything goes according to plan but it's much better that they try high risk cards and fix them later while the author is encouraging them to play it safe and against more extreme concepts. Card games are all about doing strong and absurd things, that's when the player feels empowered not by trading minions on curve. There shouldn't be anything they can't touch, they should try whatever they feel like it's going to be fun. You can't run a card game for long if only releasing boring safe "reasonable" cards.

team5 was criticized for a long time for keeping the game very simple. they added much more complicated interactions, some of it led to extremes but that's fine. They should not be discouraged for trying. Nobody thought 2 years ago they would ever add and support combo decks like they do now and the Leeroy meme was the constant spam. They are trying to change the game, that's good. If anything this game needs to go more into extremes not less. The staleness of ladder has another root, it's not because of the cards. I'm sure they are aware that what polarized matches do, they don't need some guy writing for v/s to teach them card design backed by incomplete stats just to cash in on hits by angry players.


Here is one thing HS team could do in short term to make the game less boring. Ban all the 3rd party data collecting tools so that the game isn't figured out in two weeks by bots. It has hurt the game so much and deck tracking is straight up cheating, I know what BB said, he's no longer there and well you should use pen and paper then, doing it that way takes time from your 90sec and is prone to human error, that's part of the game. Automating it is automating gameplay.

edit: Iksar's comment tells better how I feel about the conclusion of this article. https://twitter.com/IksarHS/status/1049401262129573888
 
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OP
OP
manhack

manhack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,025
I am glad to finally see some passionate discussions coming back on this board. It seems Boomsday, despite being an amazing looking set, has failed to catch fire. I can't put my hand on it, but something is off right now. I refuse to quit the game over a dull spell, and not because of sunk cost fallacy, but because I truly love this game and want it to be a long term success.

The best thing anyone bored or upset with the game can do is take a break and nibble on it when they have the inclination. My recent session with the game have left me feeling sour, saltly and hopeless. Polarized match-ups, same decks from last expansion with 1 or 2 new cards, Druid shenanigans, and no real incentive to grind. I will continue on and wait for some interesting stuff during Blizzcon.

*fingers crossed*
 

Wiibomb

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,713
this will take me a while

The article is going ham on their card designers near the end which is pretty offensive to a designer because the author doesn't know anything about card design either

I don't know anything about web designing (in how the visual part is created) and I can completely judge if a design is shit, what you are saying here is that everyone should shut up unless they know card design, which is already a very dubious claim, I can see if something is good or bad, specially when talking numbers, no need to have a masters degree in design to know if something looks good or bad.

and what their article does in essence is confirming the bias that already exists in the community but not covering the other aspects of the issue, inherently presenting that yeah what you feel is bad because bad card design!

please read the second paragraph of the article:

So, what's wrong? Obviously, there are issues close to the community's heart that have been neglected, the primary one being the lack of new features to freshen up the game. We're not here to discuss that. We're here because despite looking healthy on the surface, the meta does have a glaring problem that cannot be fully grasped by deck win rates and play rates alone.

they already said there are multiple issues that could be impacting the game, but they were address an specific one that they think is important give the analysis they make.

In the end the author is putting all the blame on card designers which is unfair and dismisses why their approach to these cards have legitimate thinking behind them, promoting countless replies from fools on reddit directly attacking the developers because it presents the designers as idiots. "Look how these cards obviously promoting RPS! and RPS is bad you hate it don't you! these last four sets are all like that!" That's this article. Just because it's written in nice language doesn't mean it good, it straight up calling them you don't know how to make the game, learn from this ...ok.... They are trying to change the feeling of the game and this is what they've done instead of playing it safe and that's why they made these cards, not everything goes according to plan but it's much better that they try high risk cards and fix them later while the author is encouraging them to play it safe and against more extreme concepts. Card games are all about doing strong and absurd things, that's when the player feels empowered not by trading minions on curve. There shouldn't be anything they can't touch, they should try whatever they feel like it's going to be fun. You can't run a card game for long if only releasing boring safe "reasonable" cards.

I might sound a bit bad here, but it's not like they are giving us this for free, it's not like those cards were made by thin air, inside team 5 those card designers have been doing a single job, pumping cards into the game to sell us, don't make the mistake of thinking they are out of good will there, it's also their job to answer when things like this happen, they don't grant the answers reddit could give them and I would never condone them, but going for the approach of "poor developers, they are so miserable" is not the right approach, specially when the article has never thrown them into a pit of lava, the most they said was this:

We urge the Hearthstone team to learn from this polarizing experience and tone down the elements that enable it. Infinite value, infinite life and infinite damage are dangerous. Mechanics that nullify the importance of card advantage or life as a resource often become degenerate, polarizing and lacking counterplay. It started with Jade Idol and escalated with Death Knights and Baku. Players simply hate it, and when brute force counterplay is introduced in response to it (Skulking Geist), it creates an experience that is just as frustrating and polarizing.

The analysis is specifically about how a main core of the design of a deck is affecting the polarization of matchups, it's pretty clear that baku and genn are very important in the decks they are made, take baku from odd paladin and you can't play that deck anymore. This is part of how they design these cards, these mechanics.

This is a well thought out conclusion, all their analysis came to the conclusion that there is a flaw in how some of these cards are designed, and it is interesting that kibler, an exdesigner, have been saying the same thing about these constant infinite value effects. I've seen way more inflammatory articles designed to bait people's perception, but this is clearly not one of them, they made an analysis, they took data and showed it clearly, reddit can answer however they want but that's not VS, that's like blaming the wrong side.

team5 was criticized for a long time for keeping the game very simple. they added much more complicated interactions, some of it led to extremes but that's fine. They should not be discouraged for trying. Nobody thought 2 years ago they would ever add and support combo decks like they do now and the Leeroy meme was the constant spam.

and that's very good, but also they have purposely taken out more skillful mechanics before, a famous example was the red mana from kazakus and the kabal tribe. Still, that's not the point, the point is that team 5 is making some mistakes that they should be looking into, specially as an issue that, as this article has helped to explain, have been in the works for quite sometime now, since ungoro the polarization has been increasing, they can do better.

Donais? he dismissed everything, no problem at all. That's honestly infuriating. Of course the meta needs polarization, that's a given, but not this unhealthy amount they have been breeding for some time.
 

Deleted member 4367

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,226
If you make infinite value cards make counter play cards for them also.

Not garbage auto win counters. Come up with some sort of counterplay that control decks can use to actually compete with infinite value decks.
 

Wiibomb

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,713
If you make infinite value cards make counter play cards for them also.

Not garbage auto win counters. Come up with some sort of counterplay that control decks can use to actually compete with infinite value decks.

but a well designed counter in the same context of the expansion like if somehow genn was a counter to baku and viceversa, the article mentions making hard counters like skullking geist that are just not well received and I have to agree with that, it's a brute force solution for a problem they made that also makes even more polarization.
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
I've just been doing the dailies in hearthstone and nothing else. Currently at 0 ranked wins for October but I'll get 5 before the end of the month just to get the card back.

I've been getting really frustrated with matchups lately, but couldn't quite put my finger on the reason until that polarity article came out.

That's my biggest frustration with Hearthstone lately. When I win or lose, I don't feel like outplayed my opponent or was outplayed. I just feel like I was matched against the right or wrong opponent.

My interest in this game has definitely waned recently and I'm hoping something happens to change it. I've been playing a bunch of Magic Arena lately and loving it and I'm sure I'll play artifact as well. On the plus side I'm glad there's never been more options for digital card games.

this is also dean ayala's response to the article:

https://twitter.com/marshall5912/status/1049335629031596039

this is miles better that the poorly chosen words mike donais said about this, instead of diminishing the whole article, he goes into detail about what should be the correct view about polarization taking the data of the article

Completely agree. Saw mike donais response and immediately rolled my eyes, but I agree with Dean's response and they're basically saying the same thing, Dean just articulated it much better. It's a shame he didn't post it on that reddit thread.
 
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Miletius

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,257
Berkeley, CA
The thing is polariziation vs simple isn't a discrete variable -- it exists on a continuum and right now it's tilted too far in one direction. This was all an active attempt by Blizzard to rightfully make the late game more meaningful. They got that part right now they need to adjust backwards a bit.
 

Fer

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,023
People now say they don't want infinite value cards that can last longer than odd warrior, and yet a few months ago everyone was asking for Deathstalker Rexxar to have updated beasts. :-/

-------

Anyway, even though I'm not a competitive player at all I was really looking forward to tournament mode because for me it meant we could in the future have access to custom modes.

I've heard that a great thing about MtG is that you own the physical cards so you can create new modes with custom rules all the time. I think then that Hearthstone should take a page from the Jackbox games and let us make rooms with a code to enter and set time limit in which they will exist. Then let us have custom rules in said room or temporary private meta (sets, deck size, banned heroes / cards, mulligan rules, even alter the win condition) so that the streamers and the community I'm general can have fun and keep the game fresh.

Take a bit the focus off ladder, and let us invent our own rules after the honeymoon phase has worn off. It's probably the closest we'll could get to having mods.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,826
People now say they don't want infinite value cards that can last longer than odd warrior, and yet a few months ago everyone was asking for Deathstalker Rexxar to have updated beasts. :-/

----.
Regardless if the beasts are updated or not, Rexxar is infinite value. I think most wanted it updated so they can keep creating a variety of beasts. Lifedrinker + stonetusk is one of my favorites and has won me numerous games.
 
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