Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
Mod Edit: Cut out all the threadwhining. If you're not interested in the topic, don't post.


There was a short lived thread on this yesterday, but was locked because mods felt it had descended into sniping.
It worthy of discussion though, so this is a mod-sanctioned repost. Do behave.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-curb-immigration-stop-populists-trump-brexit

"I think Europe needs to get a handle on migration because that is what lit the flame," Clinton said, speaking as part of a series of interviews with senior centrist political figures about the rise of populists, particularly on the right, in Europe and the Americas.

"I admire the very generous and compassionate approaches that were taken particularly by leaders like Angela Merkel, but I think it is fair to say Europe has done its part, and must send a very clear message – 'we are not going to be able to continue provide refuge and support' – because if we don't deal with the migration issue it will continue to roil the body politic."

 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP

Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
Sorry, I fucked the title up.

"Hillary Clinton: Europe must curb immigration to stop rightwing populists"

Edit: thanks!
 

Tregard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,221
So is she suggesting the way to stop rightwing populists is to enforce the policies they would want anyway?
 

Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,258
How about we don't try to placate right wing/nationalistic racists by pandering to them and giving them what they want.
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
US: Let's drop some bombs in the middle east, was awhile ago we had a good fight there
EU: Le sigh
Blair: Gogo
Middle-east: Where is my house?

Narrators voice: Many years later

HRC: Europe must curb immigration to stop rightwing populists!
 

Wafflinson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
2,084
I am not sure how another round of this mess is necessary, but whatever.

Like what is the goal of the thread exactly? Not productive conversation I promise you.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
she has the same problem as Trump where she keeps saying the quiet part out loud, but unlike Trump she says the bits that alienate the base
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721
US: Let's drop some bombs in the middle east, was awhile ago we had a good fight there
EU: Le sigh
Blair: Gogo
Middle-east: Where is my house?

Narrators voice: Many years later

HRC: Europe must curb immigration to stop rightwing populists!
What about Africa? Libya and France?
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
This is the part that really gets to me:
"I think Europe needs to get a handle on migration because that is what lit the flame,"

That people like Hillary, people in power or previously in power whose actions not only helped create the situation which led to the refugee crisis, but also helped foster the wider economical issues which make it so easy for the right wing to rise, just can not acknowledge their role in it. It is just infuriating.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,418
I am not sure how another round of this mess is necessary, but whatever.

Like what is the goal of the thread exactly? Not productive conversation I promise you.
Kinda sad these discussion can't be had in here. Says a lot about the maturity of this community with contentious topics.

The topic wasn't locked because of the content, but due to sniping.
 

Amspicora

Member
Oct 29, 2017
458
I wonder if in the day they decided to bomb half middle east and north africa they didn't thought on what could happen
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,922
Just goes to show she was always the wrong person to be president. Still makes her less of the wrong person than Trump.

Without her name and fame, she could never have competed in the primaries against Bernie, or even someone like Gillum or Beto.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,792
"Do behave."

Proceeds to end OP with Dril tweet.


Im sure the mods are ecstatic that you're starting a discussion this way.
 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
Yeah, demographics and labour demand disagree with you, Mrs. Clinton. Unless we start making more babies, immigration is here to stay if want to keep our societies functional and prospering in the long term.

The key problems are (lack of) assimiliation and tolerance in the face of intolerance and/or regressive cultural norms. I agree with her that those who oppose right-wing populism need clear and bold policy positions on these issues rather than ignoring/dimissing/patronizing the grievances that policy failures have unleashed on European citizens.

But that quote is just... yikes.
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
Immigration is a real issue across Europe. It's not because of the negative impact the immigrants have, they generally are a much stronger net positive contributor to the countries they reside in compared with the average citizen, but because of scumbag idiots scapegoating them for various problems and opportunist politicians cashing in and amplifying and extending false assumptions and inaccuracies. Combine that with an air of Islamaphobia stirred up by almost two decades of extremist terrorism, and here we are.

The challenges many European countries face is how to tackle that perception and scapegoating. The smouldering ruins of right-wing agendas have been given oxygen with things like Brexit and Trump.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,418
Immigration is a real issue across Europe. It's not because of the negative impact the immigrants have, they generally are a much stronger net positive contributor to the countries they reside in compared with the average citizen, but because of scumbag idiots scapegoating them for various problems and opportunist politicians cashing in and amplifying and extending false assumptions and inaccuracies. Combine that with an air of Islamaphobia stirred up by almost two decades of extremist terrorism, and here we are.

The challenges many European countries face is how to tackle that perception and scapegoating. The smouldering ruins of right-wing agendas have been given oxygen with things like Brexit and Trump.
Seem Clinton is also conflating the refugee issue with immigration. They seem separate.
 

Achire

Member
Oct 27, 2017
472
Is there a single major European party with an open door for refugees policy? Merkel's CDU and the Swedish socialists changed their minds in two years.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,418
This is a good point. Also something our populists love to do.
Well it's a great tactic amorally. However, without immigration many Western powers would suffer economically. Look at Japan. They're historically strict immigration policies is slowly killing them.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
its worth differentiating between economic migrants and refugees. They are not the same thing, outside of the broadest possible "foreigners want to live here" brush.

Certainly the pressure on European countries would be alleviated if the US took in more refugees than it does (on a per capita basis rather than an absolute numbers basis) because the US is very large and has a lot of habitable land thats still basically undeveloped, where most European nations are very small and have been fully developed for centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population
 

Retromelon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
622
This is more outrageous than any of all the 10 page threads of Bernie having a senior moment

This was y'all's queen?
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
Hillary doing a big turn in the hopes that when she rebids for 2020 she'll get that important racist vote!
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Makes you wonder if she would have shared this opinion if she was currently president.

Or does not being in the white house loosen the tongue.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
Regimes are already paid with weapons to crack down on opposi... erm filthy refugees, videos are shown to in schools how they all gonna suffer a horrible death going to Europe and have no chance to get a job, refugees are shipped into deserts to di... refugees are relocated into rural travel regions, helping refugees is all but criminalized...


I guess shoot on sight is still a option
Seem Clinton is also conflating the refugee issue with immigration. They seem separate.

Also this
 

Vixdean

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,855
The main thing people need to keep in mind is that the United States doesn't have a right wing populism problem. It has a problem where the people who aren't right wing populists just don't fucking vote. If every demographic in the US voted at roughly the same rates, we'd have no problems.

Europe is a different story. There, everybody votes, at least everyone who actually wants to. Brexit had a higher turnout than basically any US election in my lifetime, and the right wing populists won! The rise of these groups aren't because of voter suppression or apathy by liberals like it is in the US, it's because they actually exist in significant numbers relative to the population of eligible voters. They are also much more demographically distributed than the far right in the US, which are mostly old white uneducated males. About the only reliable indicator of right wingers in Europe is high unemployment.

So yeah, before you start excoriating Hillary for these comments, remember that she's not talking about prescriptions for this problem in the US. Here the solution is very simple: get everyone who's not them to vote. In Europe, you actually have to deal with them directly, they aren't just gonna go away if you ignore them. You can still disagree with the approach she's suggesting, but it is one rooted in reality.
 
Last edited:

Gwenpoolshark

Member
Jan 5, 2018
4,109
The Pool
My neolib as hell mom just tried to justify this logic to defend Hillary how do I explain that implementing racist policy to own the racists doesn't make any sense?

This is basically: "we could stop the bombing of abortion clinics if we just criminalized abortion."
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,792
Not sure how that relates to how the last thread was locked. That tweet is a pretty good reflection of what these sort of takes from Clinton and her ilk amount to.
I already said in the last thread how I think this is incredibly stupid/dangerous thing to say/do, but reducing "Clinton and her ilk" to a meme, when you're trying to "foster discussion" seems incredibly counter-intuitive don't you think?

Using meme humor outside of the the actual contents of the article doesn't foster discussion about the article and will just lead back to sniping at each other.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
And every time I've said on Era that Hillary was a bad candidate for 2016 there was always someone who'd say "she was the best, most prepared candidate in my lifetime".

She was terrible because she lost to the worst president in modern history. I hope I never see her run for anything ever again in my life.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
I already said in the last thread how I think this is incredibly stupid/dangerous thing to say/do, but reducing "Clinton and her ilk" to a meme, when you're trying to "foster discussion" seems incredibly counter-intuitive don't you think?

Using meme humor outside of the the actual contents of the article doesn't foster discussion about the article and will just lead back to sniping at each other.
I mean, nobody else seems to be upset about it. Let's leave this here though.
 

daveo42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,251
Ohio
Yes, giving in to right-wing extremists is the correct way to deal with them. They totally won't take a mile when you give them an inch on anything. Might as well outlaw hate speech in these countries too cause it impacts their freedoms of saying how they really feel.
 

Nert

Member
Oct 27, 2017
33
While I disagree with Clinton's "meet the bigots in the middle" approach, I am worried that the Democratic party hasn't coalesced around a coherent immigration message in the way that they have around, say, defending access to healthcare for people with pre-existing conditions. There needs to be a concise set of policy goals that is easy to understand and difficult to be misconstrued as "open borders" in order to gain any traction. Otherwise, the issue of immigration will essentially be ceded to the "build the wall" types, with liberals stuck playing defense, much like what has happened in many European countries.

My ideal policy preference is to make the legal immigration process much faster and more streamlined, create a pathway to citizenship for people already living here without legal status, allow significantly more people in each year, and to be particularly more generous towards refugees and asylum seekers. Our country is large enough to accommodate many more migrants than we currently do, the economic benefits would be large, and it would do a lot to improve our country's moral standing in the world.

If the above is too pie-in-the-sky in the current political climate, Democrats should at least be laser focused on the things that are easier sells politically, like protecting DACA recipients and allowing more high-skilled workers into the country. Anything that's more proactive than just saying that the caravan isn't as scary as it sounds would be nice.