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Honda and Toyota bringing hybrid versions of the Civic and Camry to the U.S. this year

Strider_Blaze

Strider_Blaze

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,992
Lancaster, CA
Already got a 2022 Insight, which is the last year model before the lineup was outright discontinued. But yeah makes sense to manufacture hybrids for the more well known Civic lineup.

Been pretty satisfied with my Insight's performance so hopefully the Civic Hybrid is just as good.
 
SavoryTruffle

SavoryTruffle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,409
It really cannot be understated how big of a deal with this is for busier urban and suburban areas. EVs are almost completely non-viable for many people in some of these areas (and probably will remain so for potentially decades) and plugin hybrids are pretty much the worst of all worlds. Standard hybrids double dip on fuel efficiency (raw mpg and then the city/highway mpg relationship is inverted) in these same conditions though. They're so popular where I live that many models are very hard to get at reasonable prices.

At least on paper, getting rid of the pure ICE Camry options means you might actually be able to buy a hybrid at a dealer that isn't marked up to hell and back. Given that even large three row SUV hybrids are more fuel efficient than the most efficient pure ICE sedan, the real world effect could be very positive. Standard hybrids come very close to not having any potential downside, so you'll probably start seeing this trend everywhere. Honda went part of the way last year by making only the lowest possible trim of the new Accord pure ICE. It's had a big effect on hybrid availability.

The Civic not having had a hybrid trim for years is a tragedy. It's about damn time that changed that.
 
turbobrick

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,102
Phoenix, AZ
Soundscream said:
The only issue I see with hybrid cars is the second hand market. Replacing the batteries can be expensive so the days of getting a well maintained Toyota/Honda for cheap at 100k miles and still getting another 100k miles without major repairs are likely going to be a thing of the past.
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nah. hybrid batteries really aren't too crazy expensive due to the small size. At least not expensive compared to an EV. But also hybrid batteries last a long time anyway.

You can just look at low long older prius's have lasted on their original battery
 
Darren Lamb

Darren Lamb

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,834
Good but...why aren't all cars hybrids at the very least now? The premium for the hybrid Corolla over the normal ICE one is really small
 
Soundscream

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,236
turbobrick said:
nah. hybrid batteries really aren't too crazy expensive due to the small size. At least not expensive compared to an EV. But also hybrid batteries last a long time anyway.

You can just look at low long older prius's have lasted on their original battery
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Don't they start around $2k? That isn't exactly cheap.
 
sonnyboy

sonnyboy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,233
Avitus said:
Europe is getting the good stuff:
electrek.co

New VW Golf GTE plug-in doubles the battery and range, adds DC fast charging, but...

It’s still not coming to America. Sorry, readers — thought I’d get the disappointment out of the way. The company’s...
electrek.co electrek.co

62 mile range plug-in
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They are! But that isn't an R variant.

I own a 2018 VW Golf R, which is a performance variant that's a step above the GTI. A bit more power and AWD are the main differentiators.
 

Duo

Banned
Dec 20, 2023
35
No plug no buy. All the downsides of an ICE car and none of the perks of electric with the maintenance of both minus transmission fluid... Just a normal ICE car with extra steps. We don't consider diesel locomotives hybrid when they burn fuel to turn electric motors. But that's just my mini rant on how usless a non plugin hybrid is. Im sure there is some benefits somewhere
 
turbobrick

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,102
Phoenix, AZ
Soundscream said:
Don't they start around $2k? That isn't exactly cheap.
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yeah, but they still last 150k - 200k miles at least. Sure its not great to spend a couple thousand every so often, but you'll probably make that up in fuel savings.

Duo said:
No plug no buy. All the downsides of an ICE car and none of the perks of electric with the maintenance of both minus transmission fluid... Just a normal ICE car with extra steps. We don't consider diesel locomotives hybrid when they burn fuel to turn electric motors. But that's just my mini rant on how usless a non plugin hybrid is. Im sure there is some benefits somewhere
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A hybrid still has a transmission and transmission fluid, but its usually just gear oil and servicing is like a manual, just drain and fill. It also lasts a really long time though.

You still have to do the same maintenance on a plug in hybrid as a standard hybrid. Only difference is the plug in uses the engine less so intervals can be longer.
 

Duo

Banned
Dec 20, 2023
35
turbobrick said:
yeah, but they still last 150k - 200k miles at least. Sure its not great to spend a couple thousand every so often, but you'll probably make that up in fuel savings.



A hybrid still has a transmission and transmission fluid, but its usually just gear oil and servicing is like a manual, just drain and fill. It also lasts a really long time though.

You still have to do the same maintenance on a plug in hybrid as a standard hybrid. Only difference is the plug in uses the engine less so intervals can be longer.
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Ah didn't know they kept the transmission in. Thought it was direct drive. Im just actually salty because I wanted one of these sooo bad until it wasn't plug in... I only want the ICE for extending range and emergencies.


Side thought .Thinking of an EV Van. Wonder if there is a way to set up solar panels even if they need to be deployable on the roof to trickle charge one. I wanna be free from the pump
 
turbobrick

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,102
Phoenix, AZ
Duo said:
Ah didn't know they kept the transmission in. Thought it was direct drive. Im just actually salty because I wanted one of these sooo bad until it wasn't plug in... I only want the ICE for extending range and emergencies.


Side thought .Thinking of an EV Van. Wonder if there is a way to set up solar panels even if they need to be deployable on the roof to trickle charge one. I wanna be free from the pump
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Yeah, they still have a transmission, though its a bit simplified compared to a normal ICE only car, which is why they're generally more reliable.

As for drive, a standard hybrid and a plug in hybrid have the same engine/drivetrain setup. The car can be driven by the engine only, motor only, or a combination. The main difference in Toyota's at least, is the Prime hybrids generally use a more powerful system, as the motor does more work, as well as a much larger battery. For example the Rav4 prime has the hybrid transaxle used in the larger Sienna and Highlander, which are just standard hybrids.

Honda uses a different hybrid setup, and their transmission isn't even really a transmission. It has just one gear, and if you're going too slow for the engine to drive the car due to engine rpm, it uses just the electric motor to move the car. The engine can engage to also propel the car at higher speeds once its moving. Where as Toyota uses a planetary gear setup with its secondary motor to adjust gear ratios, which is why its called an eCVT. Both of these transmission designs are more reliable than a standard automatic and especially a belt/chain type CVT due to their simplicity.
 
Soundscream

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,236
turbobrick said:
yeah, but they still last 150k - 200k miles at least. Sure its not great to spend a couple thousand every so often, but you'll probably make that up in fuel savings.
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If you're the original owner, or you bought it with like 75k sure. But I was referring to the person buying the car when it's already close to needing a new battery. Your $5000 civic could become $7000 sooner than you think. And while yes high milage cars are all ticking time bombs, some brands specifically Honda and Toyota are known for going above and beyond the average cars life expectancy.

Not that it's going to be an issue anytime soon but car ownership is going to become less feasible for struggling people. While some might say that is a good thing unless America totally rethinks it's public transportation capabilities it has the potential to be a real mess.
 
turbobrick

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,102
Phoenix, AZ
Soundscream said:
If you're the original owner, or you bought it with like 75k sure. But I was referring to the person buying the car when it's already close to needing a new battery. Your $5000 civic could become $7000 sooner than you think. And while yes high milage cars are all ticking time bombs, some brands specifically Honda and Toyota are known for going above and beyond the average cars life expectancy.

Not that it's going to be an issue anytime soon but car ownership is going to become less feasible for struggling people. While some might say that is a good thing unless America totally rethinks it's public transportation capabilities it has the potential to be a real mess.
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I definitely agree. While its easy for me to think that its just another thing to take into account when buying a used car, I realize the average person doesn't really know anything about cars and will probably just go off brand reputation or something. Hopefully people are starting to realize this given there's over 20 years of used Prius's out there, but if its a persons first hybrid they probably won't even think about it.
 
SavoryTruffle

SavoryTruffle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,409
MrMattatee said:
I'm curious why?
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Without going too far into it, there are a few clear problems with plugin hybrids. First, plugin hybrids are much more expensive than standard hybrids. When you buy a standard hybrid, you're guaranteed to make your money back via fuel savings. They're typically around 2 thousand dollars more than a pure ICE, which is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things. A plugin hybrid can be as much as ten thousand dollars more, which is more than the difference between a base model and a fully loaded model of the same car in most cases. You're not at all guaranteed to make that money back.

Second, plugin hybrids have serious reliability problems. Just think about it: EVs and pure ICE vehicles both have failure points (individual parts that can break) that the other doesn't have. Standard hybrids are very close to just being an ICE vehicle for all intents and purposes. But a plugin hybrid has all the failure points of both an EV and an ICE vehicle and these points are more likely to fail as well. It's the least reliable form a vehicle can currently take, regardless of who's making it. Leasing is almost always recommended for both EVs and plugin hybrids due to (currently) inherent reliability issues, while buying a standard hybrid with the intent to drive it for 10+ years is entirely normal.

Third, plugin hybrids in their best cases don't offer many of the advantages an EV with a unique platform typically can. I won't say much here because there are a lot of advantages but for example an EV often has significantly more interior space than a similarly sized ICE car due to things like not needing to run wires under the middle of the car. A standard hybrid doesn't get these things either but that's less of a problem due to the cost. In other words, a plugin hybrid will typically get you better fuel efficiency but you won't get many of the other perks of driving an EV, the less talked about but still important perks that aren't specifically about efficiency.

Perhaps most importantly, the specific ideal use case of a plugin hybrid is more limited than the other two forms. If plugging in regularly is viable as would be the case with an EV, then you'd probably be better off with an EV most of the time. If plugging in regularly isn't viable, then you've just got a more expensive less reliable version of a standard hybrid. There's a fairly narrow range of lifestyles where someone can both benefit from plugging in every night and still regularly require a functioning ICE.

None of this means that plugin hybrids suck or anything. For some people they're basically the perfect option. They just serve a very specific purpose, while EVs and standard hybrids together cover probably 95%+ of potential use cases. Standard hybrids can replace pure ICE vehicles almost entirely and most people will lose nothing from that change. Plugin hybrids can't do the same because they actually have significant drawbacks.
 
MrMattatee

MrMattatee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
654
Texas (aka, the upside down)
SavoryTruffle said:
Without going too far into it, there are a few clear problems with plugin hybrids. First, plugin hybrids are much more expensive than standard hybrids. When you buy a standard hybrid, you're guaranteed to make your money back via fuel savings. They're typically around 2 thousand dollars more than a pure ICE, which is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things. A plugin hybrid can be as much as ten thousand dollars more, which is more than the difference between a base model and a fully loaded model of the same car in most cases. You're not at all guaranteed to make that money back.

Second, plugin hybrids have serious reliability problems. Just think about it: EVs and pure ICE vehicles both have failure points (individual parts that can break) that the other doesn't have. Standard hybrids are very close to just being an ICE vehicle for all intents and purposes. But a plugin hybrid has all the failure points of both an EV and an ICE vehicle and these points are more likely to fail as well. It's the least reliable form a vehicle can currently take, regardless of who's making it. Leasing is almost always recommended for both EVs and plugin hybrids due to (currently) inherent reliability issues, while buying a standard hybrid with the intent to drive it for 10+ years is entirely normal.

Third, plugin hybrids in their best cases don't offer many of the advantages an EV with a unique platform typically can. I won't say much here because there are a lot of advantages but for example an EV often has significantly more interior space than a similarly sized ICE car due to things like not needing to run wires under the middle of the car. A standard hybrid doesn't get these things either but that's less of a problem due to the cost. In other words, a plugin hybrid will typically get you better fuel efficiency but you won't get many of the other perks of driving an EV, the less talked about but still important perks that aren't specifically about efficiency.

Perhaps most importantly, the specific ideal use case of a plugin hybrid is more limited than the other two forms. If plugging in regularly is viable as would be the case with an EV, then you'd probably be better off with an EV most of the time. If plugging in regularly isn't viable, then you've just got a more expensive less reliable version of a standard hybrid. There's a fairly narrow range of lifestyles where someone can both benefit from plugging in every night and still regularly require a functioning ICE.

None of this means that plugin hybrids suck or anything. For some people they're basically the perfect option. They just serve a very specific purpose, while EVs and standard hybrids together cover probably 95%+ of potential use cases. Standard hybrids can replace pure ICE vehicles almost entirely and most people will lose nothing from that change. Plugin hybrids can't do the same because they actually have significant drawbacks.
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I'm not in the market, won't be for many years, but the idea of a plugin hybrid seemed really appealing for me because we don't drive more than 30 miles in a typical day, effectively cutting out the need for gas, while maintaining flexibility to use it when necessary. You've given me more to consider, so thank you for taking the time to respond!
 
Fulcrum

Fulcrum

Member
Nov 7, 2022
1,465
All I want is a 300 HP hybrid Accord or Camry for my next family hauler appliance. I can do without these anemic power levels.

EDIT: Looks like the Camry is 225 HP, not bad, but not good enough!
 
turbobrick

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,102
Phoenix, AZ
SavoryTruffle said:
Second, plugin hybrids have serious reliability problems. Just think about it: EVs and pure ICE vehicles both have failure points (individual parts that can break) that the other doesn't have. Standard hybrids are very close to just being an ICE vehicle for all intents and purposes. But a plugin hybrid has all the failure points of both an EV and an ICE vehicle and these points are more likely to fail as well. It's the least reliable form a vehicle can currently take, regardless of who's making it. Leasing is almost always recommended for both EVs and plugin hybrids due to (currently) inherent reliability issues, while buying a standard hybrid with the intent to drive it for 10+ years is entirely normal.
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You're going to have to explain this one, because at least in terms of the brands this thread is about, there is little difference between the standard hybrid and the plug in hybrid. Mostly just the larger battery and the system to charge the battery from being plugged in.
 
Soundscream

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,236
Fulcrum said:
All I want is a 300 HP hybrid Accord or Camry for my next family hauler appliance. I can do without these anemic power levels.

EDIT: Looks like the Camry is 225 HP, not bad, but not good enough!
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I've always found anything over 200hp In a sedan is enough. Unless you're trying to do some stupid shit it's enough to get onto any highway without issues.
 
SavoryTruffle

SavoryTruffle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,409
MrMattatee said:
I'm not in the market, won't be for many years, but the idea of a plugin hybrid seemed really appealing for me because we don't drive more than 30 miles in a typical day, effectively cutting out the need for gas, while maintaining flexibility to use it when necessary. You've given me more to consider, so thank you for taking the time to respond!
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It's probably worth noting that most current EVs are effectively first generation products automakers are charging buyers tens of thousands of dollars to beta test for them. They're mostly kind of shit but it also kind of has to be this way because the technology is so incredible that the EV future isn't really a serious question. Everything for over a decade now has been about how precisely we get to a future that is already determined. It might not be obvious reading public statements or political commentary but every large automaker has already spent so much money on EV technology that they'll literally go bankrupt if they don't figure out to how to make things work for the most mainstream audience.

I mention this here because the most talked about EV concerns are mostly short term and have solutions on the way already. I think potential problems with things like taking longer trips (assuming that's part of the 'flexibility' thing for you) are unfairly downplayed a lot of the time on places like Era but I also think that won't be the case for much longer. If you end up waiting a few years, EVs are going to be vastly better than they are right now and you may not have the concerns about them you do right now.

(The problems I claimed may take decades to solve only apply to specific places and have little to do with common concerns about range anxiety or whatnot.)
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,020
turbobrick said:
A hybrid still has a transmission and transmission fluid, but its usually just gear oil and servicing is like a manual, just drain and fill. It also lasts a really long time though.

You still have to do the same maintenance on a plug in hybrid as a standard hybrid. Only difference is the plug in uses the engine less so intervals can be longer.
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IIRC, the Corolla Hybrid doesn't have a transmission -- the hybrid system *is* the transmission as it mimics the same performance as a CVT.
 
turbobrick

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,102
Phoenix, AZ
SRG01 said:
IIRC, the Corolla Hybrid doesn't have a transmission -- the hybrid system *is* the transmission as it mimics the same performance as a CVT.
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I talked about it in this post
www.resetera.com

Honda and Toyota bringing hybrid versions of the Civic and Camry to the U.S. this year

Yeah, they still have a transmission, though its a bit simplified compared to a normal ICE only car, which is why they're generally more reliable. As for drive, a standard hybrid and a plug in hybrid have the same engine/drivetrain setup. The car can be driven by the engine only, motor only...
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com
But its still a transmission, just specifically designed for hybrid use, and different from a normal ICE car transmission.

Toyota's eCVT still adjusts the gear ratio of the power being sent from the engine to the wheels using one of its electric motors and planetary gears.

You could argue Honda's hybrid system is borderline not a transmission, since its one fixed ratio, and the engine just engages and disengages when necessary.

Though maybe its just an issue of wording, and maybe the correct word to call it is a transaxle instead of a transmission.
 
stersauce

stersauce

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
3,769
san jose, ca
Since work is doing a mandatory return-to-office thing, I've been looking at a bunch of hybrids. I've decided to wait for the 2025 Camry to make a final decision on what to get (especially since EV's aren't exactly super practical for me just yet).
 
Necrovex

Necrovex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,112
Very nice. I may upgrade to a Camry hybrid in a few years especially as the 2025 will start to have all wheel drive, which would be great in the winter (and to go skiing without worries).
 
Teiresias

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,233
I was always mystified that they stopped selling the Hybrid Civic in the states. I really enjoyed the one I had back in 2007-2011 before it was totaled, and their hybrids have improved greatly since the old IMA system.
 
OP
OP
RBH

RBH

Official ERA expert on Third Party Football
Member
Nov 2, 2017
32,982
www.toyota.com

Build Your Own Toyota | Toyota Configurator

https://www.toyota.com/configurator/
www.toyota.com www.toyota.com



2025-toyota-camry.webp


The new 2025 Toyota Camry is soon arriving in dealers, and pricing is out now. For the entry-level LE, base price is $29,495 including a $1,095 destination charge. That's a little under $2,000 more than the old base Camry, but now, a hybrid powertrain is standard. In fact, the new Camry LE is $5 cheaper than the old entry Camry Hybrid model.

Here's a complete breakdown by trim, all including the $1,095 destination. All-wheel drive, new for hybrid Camrys, is a $1,525 option on all models:

quxPYin.png


Price rises all the way to $42,220 for a fully loaded model, an XSE AWD with the Premium Plus Package and two tone paint. A 2024 Honda Accord has a lower base price of $28,990, but stepping up to an Accord Hybrid costs $33,990. The base 2024 Hyundai Sonata costs $28,650, but again, it costs more to go hybrid, $31,950. So the Camry seems very competitive.

And while the Camry is more expensive overall, the fact that it costs about the same as its hybrid predecessor while offering similar fuel economy and more power makes it feel like a fair trade-off. It uses the latest generation of Toyota's famous hybrid system, like the new Prius, but with a 2.5-liter four-cylinder instead of a 2.0-liter. The new Camry also gets much-improved styling and all of Toyota's latest driver-assist tech, too.

Check back tomorrow for our first-drive review of the new Camry.
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www.motor1.com

The 2025 Toyota Camry Starts at $29,495

While pricing for the new 2025 Toyota Camry is up nearly $2,000 overall, a hybrid drivetrain is now standard. Here's the full price breakdown.
www.motor1.com www.motor1.com



The first lease on the redesigned Camry could be a pretty good deal. Based on bulletins sent to dealers in the Southeast, 2025 Toyota Camry Hybrid lease prices will start at $339 per month. Interestingly, this would appear to make the 2025 Camry just $10 more expensive to lease than the outgoing 2024 Camry Hybrid.

To start, the 2025 Toyota Camry Hybrid is listed at $339 for 36 months with $3,299 due at signing. That's based on 10,000 miles per year and is the introductory lease from Southeast Toyota (SET), the brand's distribution group encompassing the states of Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, and South Carolina.

At that price, the 2025 Toyota Camry is just $10 per month more expensive than the company's advertised lease on the 2024 Camry Hybrid. Curiously, Toyota hasn't released MSRP pricing yet for the 2025 Camry, so it's unclear if the redesigned sedan will see a price increase, especially since it's going hybrid-only.

Having said that, if the lease prices are this close, we think it's likely that the 2025 Toyota Camry's price increase will largely be in line with the previous year's hybrid model. Apart from the lease price, we also know that the 2025 Camry's money factor is 0.00317, which is equivalent to an interest rate of about 7.6% APR.

For now, we'll have to wait for more information to become available. Toyota incentives often vary by region, and we don't know what 2025 Camry Hybrid lease prices look like in other parts of the country yet. Earlier this month, Toyota introduced the first 2025 Toyota Camry financing deals starting at just 4.99% APR.
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Tony72495

Tony72495

Member
Apr 26, 2019
155
J_ToSaveTheDay said:
So tempted to trade in my 2019 Civic Hatch toward the new hybrid one. Would need to run some math to see how much money gas savings would potentially be... plus I have to consider the high likelihood of dealer markups on the price too. :/

EDIT: Saw the UK Autotrader review of the Civic Hybrid last year and been kinda hoping it would come stateside ever since.


View: https://youtu.be/yRHabI5MA3k?si=X_w6zQ0M0lXPsiPU
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Damn, I have a 2024 Integra but that gas mileage is almost making me think about a swap.
 
Consequence

Consequence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,988
Played around with the USA build tool. Interested to see how the Canadian pricing ends up - if I can get a decently packaged SE with AWD for around $46K I may put a deposit down and start the long wait.
 
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