How can Palestine get free and how will they get justice? Any decolonizing lessons from South Africa, Algeria, India?

[Samiya]

The recent attacks on Palestine has reminded me how horrific the 20th and 21st century history of Palestine is with Western colonial meddling, annexation and settler colonialism, and ultimately apartheid and an open air prison and millions of refugees in exile scattered across the globe. So the question that I have been wondering is, how can Palestine get free? How will they be able to return to their homes and to the land stolen from them? What would it take for them to return home and achieve freedom and independence? Are there lessons we can take away from other decolonizing projects in modern history such as South Africa, Algeria, Tunisia, India, and so on? Surely they made it possible to establish their own independence and freedom, so are there important take-aways that could be useful and inspirational in the case of Palestine? The most often one I hear is a one-state solution with secular democratic government and everybody equal under the law, but how will this satisfy those who had their homes and lands stolen from them? How can they get justice for the horrific Nakba in 1948?

I know that it is a difficult question to ask and that most will probably be defeatist after 70 years of little progress, but I think it is good and productive for our emotional health to imagine a better world, so that's why I am asking. And I really appreciate any contributions to the discussion, even if they aren't optimistic. If I am asking my question incorrectly, please modify the title to reflect a better and more constructive discussion - it's just that the issue of Palestine is really getting to me and input would help me reflect on the situation.

 

[AndyD]

Part of the question is where/how far back in time do you want to land, and then look at what it will take to get there. In all cases international pressure and action of all kinds will be needed, but to get to pre-48 it'll be very different to pre-67 and very different from locking it to say today.

 

[Samiya]

Part of the question is where/how far back in time do you want to land, and then look at what it will take to get there. In all cases international pressure and action of all kinds will be needed, but to get to pre-48 it'll be very different to pre-67 and very different from locking it to say today.

Click to shrink...

What would it take to get to pre-48?

And for pre-67?

And what would be the most optimal scenario do you think?

 

[Palette Swap]

I'd argue South Africa is by far the most relevant analogy from your list, because these other countries were colonies of a remote homeland, that had to deal with its domestic shit to the point resistance from the liberation movements didn't make it worthwhile for them while decolonization was not 100% an existential threat to that country, even though it meant the end of a colonial empire.

I might be off, but being intertwined with the people you subjugate brings its own set of problems to solve (on top of the abjection of colonizing people).

 

[Palas]

No lesson can be learned from modern decolonial struggles. In all these cases, colonialism simply became unsustainable due to a combination of guerilla violence and active nonviolence. Guerilla violence made it so that mantaining colonial structures became too costly and active nonviolence sought replacing said structures with indigenous/national ones. Neither are possible in this situation because Israel acts much more like an old style territorial empire than a settler/colonial power.

Maybe if we go far back to Vietnam struggles for independence against China, we'll find something.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

It's harder than the rest post 9/11 , us is extra invested in the state of Israel as well as the eu
Cause even tho it's an apartheid state they're not gonna do anything tangible to fix the nation
I feel bad for them , their Arab neighbors aren't interested either

 

[Samiya]

I'd argue South Africa is by far the most relevant analogy from your list, because these other countries were colonies of a remote homeland, that had to deal with its domestic shit to the point resistance from the liberation movements didn't make it worthwhile for them while decolonization was not 100% an existential threat to that country, even though it meant the end of a colonial empire.

I might be off, but being intertwined with the people you subjugate brings its own set of problems to solve (on top of the abjection of colonizing people).

Click to shrink...

Thanks, that's a good observation.

No lesson can be learned from modern decolonial struggles. In all these cases, colonialism simply became unsustainable due to a combination of guerilla violence and active nonviolence. Guerilla violence made it so that mantaining colonial structures became too costly and active nonviolence sought replacing said structures with indigenous/national ones. Neither are possible in this situation because Israel acts much more like an old style territorial empire than a settler/colonial power.

Maybe if we go far back to Vietnam struggles for independence against China, we'll find something.

Click to shrink...

What happened with Vietnam and China?

 

[Lishi]

What happened with Vietnam and China?

Click to shrink...

In 111 BC, the Han Dynasty from China absorbed Vietnam into their empire. Vietnam would remain a part of the Chinese empire for over 1000 years. It was in 938 AD that Ngo Quyen defeated the Chinese and gained independence for Vietnam. Vietnam was then ruled by a succession of dynasties including the Ly, Tran, and the Le dynasty. Under the Le dynasty the kingdom of Vietnam reached its peak, expanding to the south and conquering a portion of the Khmer Empire.



Read more at:​

https://www.ducksters.com/geography/country/vietnam_history_timeline.php

This text is Copyright © Ducksters. Do not use without permission.​

Click to shrink...

Probably not relevant.

There was some border conflict after the vietnam war, but i don't think it apply to this situation.

I don't think there is anything in the history that can apply.
Any other time in the History Israel would have just absorbed what would be Palestine and called a day.
But if now Israel do so they would have to give the same right to the Palestinian as their citizen, i don't see it happening.

 

[Palas]

What happened with Vietnam and China?

Click to shrink...

China absorbed Vietnam into their empire for over 1000 years. Vietnam had to reclaim their right to sovereignty and fight to expel the Chinese. It applies because this isn't a border conflict, it's plain absorption.

Mine was something of a hyperbolic statement because it's so far back, but regardless it's crucial to understand that what's at stake here is the complete erasure of Palestine, not an unequal relationship between two states. Palestinian people would have to regain their claim to a nation and then to a state, because it hardly exists anymore. This isn't your regular, 19-20th century colonialism.

 

[KimiNewt]

The only practical solution in my opinion is something equal to 1967 borders (with land swaps if necessary), a semi-international Jerusalem similar to the UN plan, and the giving up of the right of return (to Israel, not the new state of Palestine obviously) of Palestinian refugees.

Anything more than that will never be accepted by Israel and is not practical. You may call it injustice, but vying for something like 1948 borders is putting your chips in the wrong corner.

I think barring that, the conclusion to the conflict will either be a similar status quo or a bone fide apartheid state followed by a bloody civil war which will end up with a single awful country to live in.

 

[nelsonroyale]

The attitude of the US government and also soicial and ultimately political challenge within Israel is important. Ultimately there is no chance of a two state solution. What is needed is that there is no longer a Jewish state. That doesn't mean Jewish Israeli's can't live in the region, but that a state founded on being Jewish and framing others as second class citizens is not tenable. It needs to be a country for Palestinians and Jewish people. A secular state. Jewish Israeli's have reproduced their own traeatment in Europe (as a marginalised group living in Jewish ghettos) towards the Palestinians.

 

[Keasar]

Anything more than that will never be accepted by Israel and is not practical. You may call it injustice, but vying for something like 1948 borders is putting your chips in the wrong corner.

Click to shrink...

To which the rest of the world should say:

Tough.
Fucking.
Shit.

Israel has shown it's disgusting hand (for the 600th time), at this point all land should be returned to Palestine and the Israelis will just have to fucking deal with being called Palestinians if they wanna stick around. The creation of Israel was a mistake to begin with, put forward by capitalistic imperialist interests.

 

[Samiya]

The only practical solution in my opinion is something equal to 1967 borders (with land swaps if necessary), a semi-international Jerusalem similar to the UN plan, and the giving up of the right of return (to Israel, not the new state of Palestine obviously) of Palestinian refugees.

Anything more than that will never be accepted by Israel and is not practical. You may call it injustice, but vying for something like 1948 borders is putting your chips in the wrong corner.

I think barring that, the conclusion to the conflict will either be a similar status quo or a bone fide apartheid state followed by a bloody civil war which will end up with a single awful country to live in.

Click to shrink...

I understand that practical element of this, but couldn't the same argument have been made against the British and the French and the Germans when their colonies were decolonized? That is was imposible for the colonizers and settlers to ever leave or give up their lands? Yet it was still possible for Algeria, India, etc. to decolonize and gain their freedom and sovereignty in some fashion.

I don't know, I feel like we are unnecessarily restricting our 'imagination' when the real world shows us that it is entirely possible and even justified to give the land back to the colonized.

 

[KimiNewt]

To which the rest of the world should say:

Tough.
Fucking.
Shit.

Israel has shown it's disgusting hand (for the 600th time), at this point all land should be returned to Palestine and the Israelis will just have to fucking deal with being called Palestinians if they wanna stick around. The creation of Israel was a mistake to begin with, put forward by capitalistic imperialist interests.

Click to shrink...

That's an understandable opinion, but if you're asking me for a practical solution rather than ideals I'm afraid what you're talking about is not possible.

Edit: regarding decolonization, like others said this is a different situation in that there's no "home country" to go back to or that can control its colony.

 

[TortadeJamon]

Israel has shown it's disgusting hand (for the 600th time), at this point all land should be returned to Palestine and the Israelis will just have to fucking deal with being called Palestinians if they wanna stick around. The creation of Israel was a mistake to begin with, put forward by capitalistic imperialist interests.

Click to shrink...

You do realize what's likely to happen in such a situation, right? The Israelis would sooner launch all their nukes than go along with what they view as a prelude to genocide. This isn't going to end peacefully.

 

[Samiya]

That's an understandable opinion, but if you're asking me for a practical solution rather than ideals I'm afraid what you're talking about is not possible.

Click to shrink...

But if it was possible for the former European colonies to decolonize, why shouldn't it be for Palestine? Didn't people back in the 20th century also say it wasn't possible to overthrow or decolonize those countries?

 

[Masterz1337]

The attitude of the US government and also soicial and ultimately political challenge within Israel is important. Ultimately there is no chance of a two state solution. What is needed is that there is no longer a Jewish state. That doesn't mean Jewish Israeli's can't live in the region, but that a state founded on being Jewish and framing others as second class citizens is not tenable. It needs to be a country for Palestinians and Jewish people. A secular state. Jewish Israeli's have reproduced their own traeatment in Europe (as a marginalised group living in Jewish ghettos) towards the Palestinians.

Click to shrink...

This. The Jewish state is antithetical to what the western world believes in. It's a state for Jews where other religions are second class citizens. It doesn't matter if they are better off in Israel than Syria, or Jordan or Egypt. The separation of church and state and the idea all people are equal under god is one of the best things about western civilization and America (even though we have the religious nut jobs in positions of power).

A new state and government needs to be founded with equality for everyone under the law, and needs to guarantee safety for Jews while not being a Jewish State. It needs to also help raise Palestinians out of poverty and make the injustices by the old state of Israel right. Splitting the land into 2 states was a bad, if not understandable idea back in the day.

 

[Deleted member 15240]

No lesson can be learned from modern decolonial struggles. In all these cases, colonialism simply became unsustainable due to a combination of guerilla violence and active nonviolence. Guerilla violence made it so that mantaining colonial structures became too costly and active nonviolence sought replacing said structures with indigenous/national ones. Neither are possible in this situation because Israel acts much more like an old style territorial empire than a settler/colonial power.

Maybe if we go far back to Vietnam struggles for independence against China, we'll find something.

Click to shrink...

I disagree completely, Israel is exactly like every other settler colony and zionism is both very similar and closely related to the white supremacy that justified/justifies other well-known settler colonies. We don't have to go as far back as 111 BC nor do we have to use a non-white example of imperial expansion to understand the situation in Israel and the threat faced by Palestine. Australia, the United States, Canada, and New Zealand are all far better examples of places where settler colonialism is still ongoing and can be said to have 'succeeded', though there are still decolonialists in those countries that deserve to be recognized. Those countries are what Israel is trying to emulate. It's why you so often here zionists respond to claims that Israel is illegitimate with "well what about America, should we just give that land back to the natives?".

As for examples of places where decolonization was more successful than in the aforementioned countries, I think former African settler colonies like Rhodesia, Mozambique, Algeria, and, of course, South Africa are probably the most analogous with Israel. The major difference being that Israel has a larger settler population than those African examples have/had. Decolonization in every one of those countries except South Africa led to a huge, often near total, decline in the settler population. I don't think that's possible in Israel and so the ideal way to decolonize Israel would be a process like the one in South Africa. Of course, South Africa's transition from white settler rule was far from ideal and there is still a structural inequality between its white and black populations. But a single secular democratic country where both Israelis and Palestinians nominally enjoy equal rights but where there will still be structural inequality that favors the Israelis would at least be an improvement over the current situation. It's the most probable positive possible future. Alternatives are the successful cleansing of the Palestinian people or regional war(s) that will eventually push out the vast majority of Israelis and return to land to Palestinians.

 

[Samiya]

You do realize what's likely to happen in such a situation, right? The Israelis would sooner launch all their nukes than go along with what they view as a prelude to genocide. This isn't going to end peacefully.

Click to shrink...

Good point, but to bring up a historical example: South Africa didn't decolonize from outside interference, but by domestic civil society and organized movements to strike, intervene, and boycott. If a similar strategy were to be applied to Israel internally that could potentially avoid the use of nukes against any outside interference.

 

[KimiNewt]

But if it was possible for the former European colonies to decolonize, why shouldn't it be for Palestine? Didn't people back in the 20th century also say it wasn't possible to overthrow or decolonize those countries?

Click to shrink...

I think that South Africa is the major comparison point here because the colonizers (for the most part) actually, for the most part, stayed rather than just taking off and was independent (towards the end) rather than being wholly controlled by another country.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think that due to the way Israel is and the people who reside there, it would require nothing short of military action which I don't see happening any time soon. I don't think Israel would buckle even under severe economic sanctions as this "decolonization" will unimaginable to the populace who would be certain that they would be second-class citizens in this new country or outright harmed. You can think that this is ironic or whatnot, but it's the reason why I don't think it's a solution Israel would accept even in the most dire of circumstances.

 

[Dever]

To which the rest of the world should say:

Tough.
Fucking.
Shit.

Israel has shown it's disgusting hand (for the 600th time), at this point all land should be returned to Palestine and the Israelis will just have to fucking deal with being called Palestinians if they wanna stick around. The creation of Israel was a mistake to begin with, put forward by capitalistic imperialist interests.

Click to shrink...

In a one state solution, maybe the country shouldn't be called Israel or Palestine. "Israel" implies the Jews are in charge, "Palestine" implies the Arabs are in charge, when what you would want is peaceful and equal coexistance of the two

 

[Palas]

I disagree completely, Israel is exactly like every other settler colony and zionism is both very similar and closely related to the white supremacy that justified/justifies other well-known settler colonies. We don't have to go as far back as 111 BC nor do we have to use a non-white example of imperial expansion to understand the situation in Israel and the threat faced by Palestine. Australia, the United States, Canada, and New Zealand are all far better examples of places where settler colonialism is still ongoing and can be said to have 'succeeded', though there are still decolonialists in those countries that deserve to be recognized. Those countries are what Israel is trying to emulate. It's why you so often here zionists respond to claims that Israel is illegitimate with "well what about America, should we just give that land back to the natives?".

As for examples of places where decolonization was more successful than in the aforementioned countries, I think former African settler colonies like Rhodesia, Mozambique, Algeria, and, of course, South Africa are probably the most analogous with Israel. The major difference being that Israel has a larger settler population than those African examples have/had. Decolonization in every one of those countries except South Africa led to a huge, often near total, decline in the settler population. I don't think that's possible in Israel and so the ideal way to decolonize Israel would be a process like the one in South Africa. Of course, South Africa's transition from white settler rule was far from ideal and there is still a structural inequality between its white and black populations. But a single secular democratic country where both Israelis and Palestinians nominally enjoy equal rights but where there will still be structural inequality that favors the Israelis would at least be an improvement over the current situation. It's the most probable positive possible future. Alternatives are the successful cleansing of the Palestinian people or regional war(s) that will eventually push out the vast majority of Israelis and return to land to Palestinians.

Click to shrink...

I'm sorry, are you in any way suggesting I support Israel? Read what I said again.

Plus, the one-state solution is beyond absurd. It'll never work precisely because it'll happen exactly the same way it happened, and happens, in the countries you mentioned. Australia, the US, Canada, New Zealand and -- let's not forget -- Brazil and Latin America as a whole are structurally built to favour colonizers. Israel as an apartheid state and will never be a secular democratic country. Never.

EDIT: By the way, land should absolutely be given back to indigenous people everywhere. In fact, ideally, the Westphalia status quo and the whole idea of nation-states should fall, but that's another conversation.

 

[Siggy-P]

The situation is not similar to them. In those cases further colonisation was unsustainable due to outside factors. Protests and that helped but if not for an already failing empire and loss of global power Britain and Co. would have had a much longer grip on those countries.

Israel's government doesn't wanna colonise. It wants to annex. And its on its doorstep, as well as having Western countries funnel money into their military.

Palesteins best chance is outside interference powerful enough that even Israel wouldn't dare threaten litteraly placing troops inside of Palestine territory.

 

[Palette Swap]

But if it was possible for the former European colonies to decolonize, why shouldn't it be for Palestine? Didn't people back in the 20th century also say it wasn't possible to overthrow or decolonize those countries?

Click to shrink...

I haven't read it in ages, so pardon me if my paraphrasing oversimplifies things, but Fanon makes a very salient point in The Wretched of the Earth : by essence, decolonization can only be violent and the colonizer and colonized can't peacefully coexist, decolonization is a replacement process, after which settlers can't live there anymore. The alienation at the core of colonization makes it impossible for settler and native to coexist without one dehumanizing the other, and it can't be written off like that.

I believe he's right, and that's exactly why I believe that a humane single state solution considered through the prism of decolonization can't happen, and that a single state can't end well.

Hell, if I had to take a stab at what recent historical processes might inform how this situation could move forward, I'd look at the Balkans. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about them, but there is this component of how to (and not to) split a land between nations/cultures/ethnicities. I don't believe there's any great answer tbh.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

End the apartheid regime within Israel. One state where Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights. Jail the war criminals. Pay reparations to Palestinians. Imo

 

[Masterz1337]

To which the rest of the world should say:

Tough.
Fucking.
Shit.

Israel has shown it's disgusting hand (for the 600th time), at this point all land should be returned to Palestine and the Israelis will just have to fucking deal with being called Palestinians if they wanna stick around. The creation of Israel was a mistake to begin with, put forward by capitalistic imperialist interests.

Click to shrink...

This is the boarder line anti-semitism take a lot of us Jews around the world hate. Tough fucking shit? The state of Israel is a horrible thing that has abused its power and subjected people to terrible abuses and commits crimes against humanity.

But the people are much like here in America, divided on what should be done and just like not every American is a MAGA hat wearing douchebag, not every Israeli is for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. You have children and generations now that grew up there, taking their homes, friends, careers, lives away from them, let alone the basic right of security and safety is not a solution.

You not caring about the Jewish lives who would be effected because you hate the illegitimate government that governs you, is a form of indifference to an entire religion and people too. You don't have to throw the Jews as a whole there to the wolves to support the Palestinians, and you don't have to take away their own lives as vengeance for events from 70 years ago.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but your post is just one that boarders on the "politics as sports" where the focus is on seeing the side you want to win win. And it shows a lack or any sort of understanding or care of what happens to Jews in the area as a whole.

Hopefully this post gives you (and others) some things to reflect on and think about.

 

[Dever]

I haven't read it in ages, so pardon me if my paraphrasing oversimplifies things, but Fanon makes a very salient point in The Wretched of the Earth : by essence, decolonization can only be violent and the colonizer and colonized can't peacefully coexist, decolonization is a replacement process, after which settlers can't live there anymore. The alienation at the core of colonization makes it impossible for settler and native to coexist without one dehumanizing the other, and it can't be written off like that.

I believe he's right, and that's exactly why I believe that a humane single state solution considered through the prism of decolonization can't happen, and that a single state can't end well.

Hell, if I had to take a stab at what recent historical processes might inform how this situation could move forward, I'd look at the Balkans. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about them, but there is this component of how to (and not to) split a land between nations/cultures/ethnicities. I don't believe there's any great answer tbh.

Click to shrink...

I don't understand why everyone is so pessimistic about this. Apartheid ended in South Africa in early 1990s and the situation there hasn't escalated into race war or genocide afaik.

 

[XNihili]

Is it really colonialism when you want to kick the natives out of their place to their neighbour to take care of, instead of having them as 2nd class citizen ?

 

[Deleted member 15240]

I'm sorry, are you in any way suggesting I support Israel? Read what I said again.

Plus, the one-state solution is beyond absurd. It'll never work precisely because it'll happen exactly the same way it happened, and happens, in the countries you mentioned. Australia, the US, Canada, New Zealand and -- let's not forget -- Brazil and Latin America as a whole are structurally built to favour colonizers. Israel as an apartheid state and will never be a secular democratic country. Never.

EDIT: By the way, land should absolutely be given back to indigenous people everywhere. In fact, ideally, the Westphalia status quo and the whole idea of nation-states should fall, but that's another conversation.

Click to shrink...

I did not suggest that you supported Israel; I stated clearly that I disagreed with your assessment of the situation. I do not think no lessons can be learned from modern decolonial struggles nor do I think Israel is different from other settler colonies and acts more like an old style territorial empire i.e. China. Those are your words and I was explaining why I disagree with them.

We should all support the indigenous struggles in the Americas and Oceania, those struggles are not over yet. They are, sadly, a lot harder than the struggle in Israel in the sense that settler colonialism has been going on for a lot longer in those places and the settler populations have reached huge levels. That's why a transition from active Apartheid and settler expansionism to a single state is IMO actually possible in Palestine. Like it was in South Africa. So I don't share your defeatism at all. I mean, what do you suggest if you think the situation is that hopeless and Israel will always be an Apartheid state?

 

[Ecotic]

There would need to be some major precipitating event that leads Israel and the world to realize the status quo is untenable. I don't know what it would be and what it would look like, but without that catalyst I don't see a campaign of changing hearts and minds on this issue to be successful enough to make up the difference. Countries with leverage like the U.S. and the European Union have their own problems that take priority and there's no political capital to spare to help out the Palestinians.

 

[Chirotera]

Nothing will be done until the US strips it of weapons sales, and enacts harsh sanctions upon them while partnering with European and Asian powers to do the same. Nothing else really applies because of that blanket backing that never holds them to account.

Imagine if the whites in South Africa were given the same kind of support. It wouldn't have ended well.

 

[TortadeJamon]

End the apartheid regime within Israel. One state where Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights. Jail the war criminals. Pay reparations to Palestinians. Imo

Click to shrink...

That can't possibly work. Factions on both sides would start a civil war.

 

[Keuja]

To which the rest of the world should say:

Tough.
Fucking.
Shit.

Israel has shown it's disgusting hand (for the 600th time), at this point all land should be returned to Palestine and the Israelis will just have to fucking deal with being called Palestinians if they wanna stick around. The creation of Israel was a mistake to begin with, put forward by capitalistic imperialist interests.

Click to shrink...

So your solution to the on-going ethnic cleansing is another ethnic cleansing.

 

[krazen]

United States needs to stop putting their 100 ton foot on the scale, and peace would come.

You've got a nuclear power with a robust international economy, and strong ties to many of the middle eastern governments surrounding them(that they keep on the low). The world has changed drastically in the last sixty years geopolitically in the middle east and Israel being portrayed as always being on the brink of getting wiped out is archaic when their BFF besides the US is Egypt (who's hands aren't clean when it comes to dealing with Palestinians themselves).

Part of the propaganda is Palestine liberation is tied to the destruction of Israel, but I would ask by who? They are still a minority, and the surrounding countries don't give a fuck about poor marginalized Palestinians either outside of political pawns, cash is king baby and no one is going to put their people on the line for Palestinians in a war in 2021. If Israel faced actual political consequences to their actions they would change their tune.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

That can't possibly work. Factions on both sides would start a civil war.

Click to shrink...

I disagree. This is why things like reparations and truth and reconciliation commissions (like South Africa) is important.

 

[Palas]

I did not suggest that you supported Israel; I stated clearly that I disagreed with your assessment of the situation. I do not think no lessons can be learned from modern decolonial struggles nor do I think Israel is different from other settler colonies and acts more like an old style territorial empire i.e. China. Those are your words and I was explaining why I disagree with them.

We should all support the indigenous struggles in the Americas and Oceania, those struggles are not over yet. They are, sadly, a lot harder than the struggle in Israel in the sense that settler colonialism has been going on for a lot longer in those places and the settler populations have reached huge levels. That's why a transition from active Apartheid and settler expansionism to a single state is IMO actually possible in Palestine. Like it was in South Africa. So I don't share your defeatism at all. I mean, what do you suggest if you think the situation is that hopeless and Israel will always be an Apartheid state?

Click to shrink...

Two states. Regional, multipolar governance akin to the EU. Even if the apartheid nature of the state is toppled from within, rightful concerns about Israel's own sovereignty and safety will arise if not all countries in the region are committed not only to peace, but to mutual development. Hard to imagine, but only states can hold other states accountable.

 

[Asmar]

The only practical solution in my opinion is something equal to 1967 borders (with land swaps if necessary), a semi-international Jerusalem similar to the UN plan, and the giving up of the right of return (to Israel, not the new state of Palestine obviously) of Palestinian refugees.

Anything more than that will never be accepted by Israel and is not practical. You may call it injustice, but vying for something like 1948 borders is putting your chips in the wrong corner.

I think barring that, the conclusion to the conflict will either be a similar status quo or a bone fide apartheid state followed by a bloody civil war which will end up with a single awful country to live in.

Click to shrink...

Nothing makes me mad more than thinking that a white american jew from new york has the right to go to Lod or Haifa and live there with privilege, but not a Palestinian refugee who's family had lived in those cities for centuries.

This kind of injustice must never be accepted in the name of being realistic

Also, at this point it is clear that to Israel, 67 borders are as unlikely as 48 borders, they have no interest in any kind of peace whatsoever, so anyone who still believes and calls for two state solution is delusional.

What was taken by force will be restored by force.

 

[NullPointerException]

I'm still a firm believer in the two-state solution (1967 borders) but acknowledge how it is being used as a political tool now to prolong the apartheid.

I feel it's viable based on the following conditions:

- West Bank and Gaza under full Palestinian control. Gaza becomes capital since it's the biggest Palestinian city.
- Golan Heights back to Syria.
- The rest to Israel except Jerusalem. Tel-Aviv becomes capital.
-Jerusalem (including East) becomes an independent stand-alone city state with an official 3-way religious representative leadership for each religion (Judaism, Islam and Christianity). UN can assign initial religious leaders based on mutual diplomatic ties between Israel, western world and the cooperative pro-Palestinian countries from Muslim world.

 

[Keasar]

This is the boarder line anti-semitism take a lot of us Jews around the world hate. Tough fucking shit? The state of Israel is a horrible thing that has abused its power and subjected people to terrible abuses and commits crimes against humanity.

But the people are much like here in America, divided on what should be done and just like not every American is a MAGA hat wearing douchebag, not every Israeli is for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. You have children and generations now that grew up there, taking their homes, friends, careers, lives away from them, let alone the basic right of security and safety is not a solution.

You not caring about the Jewish lives who would be effected because you hate the illegitimate government that governs you, is a form of indifference to an entire religion and people too. You don't have to throw the Jews as a whole there to the wolves to support the Palestinians, and you don't have to take away their own lives as vengeance for events from 70 years ago.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but your post is just one that boarders on the "politics as sports" where the focus is on seeing the side you want to win win. And it shows a lack or any sort of understanding or care of what happens to Jews in the area as a whole.

Hopefully this post gives you (and others) some things to reflect on and think about.

Click to shrink...

I dunno how this keeps coming up but Israel =/= Judaism. Like saying my stance on the USA rightfully giving back the entire western half of the continent back to the natives is "Anti-Christian". Impractical: yes. Hard to do: also yes. Morally the right thing to do to repair the fuckery that have been done to the people? Abso-goddamn-lutely.

And this is to both:

So your solution to the on-going ethnic cleansing is another ethnic cleansing.

Click to shrink...

Nothing would be more goddamn awful than another ethnic cleansing and that is absolutely not what I am advocating here. I am saying that land should be given back to the Palestinian people and Israelites will have to integrate with them instead. And if there are any right-wing Israelites who don't like that idea, then they just gonna have to move, see how much fucking fun that is to all the people they have displaced over the decades.

ALSO:
It is REALLY FUCKED UP that people here immediately makes the assumption that Palestinians are gonna want to fucking ethnically cleanse the Israelites at a moments notice if the borders come down. How the fuck is that any different from making any assumptions about Israelites as a whole!?

 

[sangreal]

But if it was possible for the former European colonies to decolonize, why shouldn't it be for Palestine? Didn't people back in the 20th century also say it wasn't possible to overthrow or decolonize those countries?

Click to shrink...

Israelis aren't colonizers (putting aside their territorial expanison) so trying to apply the same dynamic won't work. They will never fuck off back to their own country because they are native to Israel, from which they were originally displaced.

At any rate, the only real solution is a secular 1-state solution which isn't going to happen

 

[Lishi]

For a forum that are so full of American that have studies American history I find so funny rhet most people here don't connect the situation that Palestinian have with those or American native.

Kicked out by a stronger institution in what will be likely smaller and smaller territory.

 

[Lidl]

Agreeing with the posters saying that this is nothing like typical colonialization.

Most of Nakba happened after the outbreak of the first war in Palestine. However, the pro-Palestinean belligerents in this war (and pretty much all of the following wars) were mostly (from) neighboring Arab nations. Yet instead of said nations losing territory to Israel as sort of tribute (which has for instance been happening at the end of WW2 in Europe - just saying that it was modus operandi back then), the Palestinian territories were occupied instead.

In the aftermath of the war(s) a large amount of Jews left or in some instances were ethnically cleansed from multiple Arab countries:

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How would you solve that with lessons of decolonialization from India or South Africa?

 

[Necromanti]

I think pressure would need to come from both outside and within.

Sanctions (e.g. economic), stop funding, stop selling weapons to the Israeli state, and so on.

Due to the immense power differential, the activism would need to come from the Israeli side. The biggest issue I see is the bipartisan narrative built upon and around the promised homeland myth. The narrative needs to change from the one where the inhuman Muslim hordes are working towards the demise of Israel and all its people. Everything is viewed from the lens of righteous self-defense. Israeli leftists know how taboo it is to challenge the propaganda-enforced narrative. The fascists must go. Of course, as the history of the world shows us, Israelis aren't unique in how things don't get challenged as much as they should due to fear or reprisal (economical consequences, consequences to liberty, to life, etc.).

On the latter point, that also means not letting the Israeli state have the final say on how the media (or really, anyone public-facing) portrays or criticizes its actions. I don't see that changing until economic relationships between countries change.

 

[Masterz1337]

I dunno how this keeps coming up but Israel =/= Judaism. Like saying my stance on the USA rightfully giving back the entire western half of the continent back to the natives is "Anti-Christian". Impractical: yes. Hard to do: also yes. Morally the right thing to do to repair the fuckery that have been done to the people? Abso-goddamn-lutely.

And this is to both:

Nothing would be more goddamn awful than another ethnic cleansing and that is absolutely not what I am advocating here. I am saying that land should be given back to the Palestinian people and Israelites will have to integrate with them instead. And if there are any right-wing Israelites who don't like that idea, then they just gonna have to move, see how much fucking fun that is to all the people they have displaced over the decades.

ALSO:
It is REALLY FUCKED UP that people here immediately makes the assumption that Palestinians are gonna want to fucking ethnically cleanse the Israelites at a moments notice if the borders come down. How the fuck is that any different from making any assumptions about Israelites as a whole!?

Click to shrink...

Israel =\= Judaism, but most Israelis are Jews. Taking their homes and their land and cities and giving it all back to the Palestinians, would effectively cleanse the area of Jews who would have nothing and no protection or government to protect them. Just because Jews wouldn't be massacred in the streets, doesn't mean the area would be cleaned of them through displacement.

People grew up there and are there to stay, and swapping who has power is not a solution to any problem.

Again, you show no regard to the people and lives that would be effected on the Israeli side. You don't express any concern to what happens to innocent Jews who live there and are happy to see them removed from their homes and land.

 

[Keasar]

Israelis aren't colonizers.

Click to shrink...

Historically, factually, philosophically and morally wrong.

Israel is a colony. Every definition of a modern imperial colony applies in this situation.
It is the very words of the people starting and leading the project:

Voluntary Agreement Not Possible.

There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.

My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent.

The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage.

Click to shrink...

Ze'ev Jabotinsky

http://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf

It basically goes on to just say "We can't give anything to the arabs for the land, so we might as well just take it."

Again, you show no regard to the people and lives that would be effected on the Israeli side. You don't express any concern to what happens to innocent Jews who live there and are happy to see them removed from their homes and land.

Click to shrink...

If they were in any danger, I would, but they are not. They are sitting behind one of the most advanced military defence systems in the world. The Israeli people have nukes. And right now though they are not the ones being precision strike fucked by missiles on their schools, hospitals, refugee camps and more, killing innocents by the fucking hundreds. They are not the ones being invaded by police and military during holy holidays and shot with riot weaponry, like it JUST happened again even during a ceasefire agreement cause apparently the IDF just wanted to get that last minute shopping of misery in!

Of course I fucking care about innocent lives among the Jewish, but they are not the ones who NEED the aid and defence!

 

[TortadeJamon]

I disagree. This is why things like reparations and truth and reconciliation commissions (like South Africa) is important.

Click to shrink...

The ethnic tensions in South Africa were nowhere near as high, and even they have their Julius Malemas.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

The ethnic tensions in South Africa were nowhere near as high, and even they have their Julius Malemas.

Click to shrink...

In America they said the same thing about ending slavery and our own apartheid regime 🥴

 

[Oneiros]

Two states is the only solution. Both have a right to exist and they clearly can't do it as one.

 

[Devil]

If you ever find the solution to the question in the title make sure to give my people (Kurds) a call and tell them what to do, lol.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Two states is the only solution. Both have a right to exist and they clearly can't do it as one.

Click to shrink...

I think you'll find that they also can't as two, looking at the history.
Plus, not sure an ethnostate can ever be a good idea.