Metallia

Member
May 31, 2018
476
Some fat cat keeps telling them to dumb the games down to appeal to more players. So now you have essentially dude-bro shooter type games with so little actual RPG elements they can't really be called that.
I don't think it's exclusively fat cats asking for games to be dumbed down, though I'm sure that's part of it. I think another aspect of it may be the developers themselves misinterpreting fan interest resulting in the flanderization of certain concepts due to their popularity. This process is really obvious with the Fallout games.

A big part of the fun of both classic and modern Fallout is getting new weapons. For a lot of people it's a big part of why they like modern Fallout. As the series went on, that aspect became focused on more and more, until the series went straight up RNG-based weapon loot with 4, then Fallout 76 became solely about the RNG-based weapon loot gameplay loop. The thing is a lot of people liked it at each step, but the increased focus on that element of design came at the cost of (or at least alongside a lack of) focus on the things that made the previous games liked, until the series ended up becoming solely about this one element.
 

ridaxan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
243
Cape Town, South Africa
Outside of the general games review echo chamber a lot of people seem to be having a lot of fun with both 76 and Anthem regardless of review scores.

I haven't really managed to set side any time for either of them, but I know people who've knocked close to a 100 hours in both games now.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
I'm sorry but lol.

Mass Effect 2 is *still* regarded as one of the best games of its generation. It still gets regularly mentioned as being one of BioWare best ever games. To write it off like you have done because you don't personally like it is so silly and reductive it just embaresses you.

So you are trying to argue with a post stating they are failing to produce a great RPG because they are chasing popularity ... by saying a game is popular?

That is completely missing the point of the post and indeed the entire thread. While breaking it down to at least reading the title might be even more reductive, it might be a good start for you.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,209
So you are trying to argue with a post stating they are failing to produce a great RPG because they are chasing popularity ... by saying a game is popular?

That is completely missing the point of the post and indeed the entire thread. While breaking it down to at least reading the title might be even more reductive, it might be a good start for you.

It is not just "popular". It is critically acclaimed, and routinely acknowledged as one of their best RPGs ever. You're *entire* point is basically "I don't like this thing, therefore it shows they've been getting worse for some time". You're extrapolating your personal opinion to a broader trend for which there is literally zero evidence and a huge amount of counter evidence.

Separate out your personal feelings might help you understand why most of the discussion about Anthem highlights how far Bioware have fallen since Mass Effect 2, rather than say Baldurs Gate.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,807
A lot of Bioware's talent has left over the years. It hasn't been the same company that made BG2 or even Dragon Age Origins for years. Then they went with a new genre for them that doesn't really seem to play to the strengths they've been known for in the past. And not only were they not able to carry over their strengths but they apparently made some questionable development decisions as well.

Bethesda has always made buggy games. To the "See, I told you so," people, fans of the studio have always known this and accepted it mainly because the studio has been able to offer an experience other studios don't. They provide a great feeling of living in a fictional world, being a part of it, and making it your own. Being multiplayer focused, Fallout 76 loses a lot of that feeling and so you're left with just the bugs and shitty performance which become much harder to overlook.

In the case of Bioware I still think we'll get Dragon Age 4, but we'll see how much of the whole live service thing pollutes it and if Bioware can still pull out a good RPG. But that's years away. Bethesda will put out Starfield in 2 or 3 years and it'll probably be largely, if not completely, single player. But other companies are starting to creep into their wheelhouse and may make a better show of it if Bethesda can't get over their usual issues.
 

Grewitch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
214
UK
lol no. bethesda isn't anywhere near "dying". they could coast off skyrim and fallout 4 well into the next decade if they really wanted

BioWare is a little more up in the air with EA's touch of death, if Anthem bombs commercially they'll be two for two. but even for EA pulling the trigger on them would be pretty drastic

Bethesda might not be doing financially, sure, but creatively they've been dying each game. From Fallout 3, Skyrim and Fallout 4, their stories have gotten worse, they've been reducing their RPG depth.

They really need to up their game when other RPGs are leaving them behind in those respects.
 
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texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,555
Indonesia
Because as we've just seen with Fallout 76, if a games word of mouth at launch is bad it can impact sales. If there is a similar drop in reception for FO5 as there was for FO4 that is skirting near that threshold imo.
Fallout 4 sold wel lbecause it came at the heels of 3 and New Vegas. After being disappointed with it many people are way more cautious of buying a new fallout game so your logic of "fallout 4 sold well so they should double down on it" is as insane as thinking because RE6 sold well capcom would do RE6.5 after it ignoring the critics about the product (spoiler they didnt)
The thing is, Fallout 4 didn't only sell well at launch. They game is still selling overtime despite people's criticisms. They might've cut some RPG elements in that entry, but they also added lots of new stuff, and looks like people like them. Yes, they might lose old fans, but if they believe that the franchise will have a better future by catering to the new audience, it's not really an odd business decision.
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,674
While i agree with the first point it makes the second point looks even weirder

If Fallout 3 wasnt as good as a RPG (and it wasnt) then Fallout 4 sure didnt do any better as one
Fallout 3 had not so great rpg mechanics or combat. The combat was significantly better in F4. As a single player loot shooter, it's awesome.

Its just not what the people wanted. 4 was a worse rpg, but at least it did something well.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
You can see why these two studios would want to branch out into the multiplayer world, because "play Skyrim but with your buddies!" does sound like a great concept on paper. But once you actually start making that game you realise that a lot of the slower, less bombastic elements of RPG questing (talking to people, allocating stat points, reloading to see the other side of an A/B choice, etc) don't work when you're in a squad of four people. So you strip those elements out, but now you're only left with a lot of combat, and combat alone isn't necessarily Bioware or Bethesda's strong suit.

I'm playing Anthem now and this game screams for some in-depth dialogue options and character builds. The characters are there, the lore is solid, Bioware still knows how to write; there's a parallel universe out there where Bioware made a fabulous singleplayer Anthem RPG. But instead they made this monotonous loot game that doesn't play to any of their strengths.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
Pure greed. They stopped wanting to be at the top and wanted to settle for easy money
 

Vic2003

Member
Dec 8, 2017
222
Not so worried about Bethesda, ok they put out a really bad game with 74, and had a idendtity problem with Fallout 4, but Far Habor was excellent. The talent is there. They're probably hungry and Starfield, next-gen Skyrim could be a return to form for them.

Lets not talk about Bioware.

Agree Bethesda still has the talent. What worries me is their stubbornness to stick with the Gamebyro engine. They seem determined to stick with that engine and it really hurt their games this generation. Next generation it's going to be even more dated and worse.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,416
I love how it's greed that made gaas a goal instead of them wanting to do something different.

News flash...every single title you play is made to make money. How the hell else would they get the funding to do anything at all.
 

water_wendi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,354
The thing is, Fallout 4 didn't only sell well at launch. They game is still selling overtime despite people's criticisms. They might've cut some RPG elements in that entry, but they also added lots of new stuff, and looks like people like them. Yes, they might lose old fans, but if they believe that the franchise will have a better future by catering to the new audience, it's not really an odd business decision.
i believe Fallout 76 changes things though. There is going to be heavy scrutiny on Bethesdas next release. Now thats not necessarily a negative because a lot of eyes will be on the release so if things are great its just free extra exposure. Maybe im totally off base but im guessing there is a lot of pressure over at Bethesda right now.
 

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,555
Indonesia
i believe Fallout 76 changes things though. There is going to be heavy scrutiny on Bethesdas next release. Now thats not necessarily a negative because a lot of eyes will be on the release so if things are great its just free extra exposure. Maybe im totally off base but im guessing there is a lot of pressure over at Bethesda right now.
Fallout 76 is just a one off, even the mainstream would understand that it's a different game from the previous ones since it's online only. When Bethesda announces their next single player RPG, people would flock into it.
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
14,271
a Socialist Utopia
They're chasing trends and building products by committee / focus group instead of making games fueled by creativity.

Both Bioware and Bethesda have been on a very clear downward trajectory for years. What they make today bears no semblance to their past games when they made imaginative games for the players instead of exploitative, soulless products. You can see that the process is different, their games are not driven by creativity and the joy of making games, these days it's all suits, spreadsheets, GaaS and exploitative business practices. There is no love for the game or the player anymore. So I'm not buying their shit anymore.

Fallout 76 and Anthem are the culmination of their downward spiral. Absolute, soulless trash.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,560
i believe Fallout 76 changes things though. There is going to be heavy scrutiny on Bethesdas next release. Now thats not necessarily a negative because a lot of eyes will be on the release so if things are great its just free extra exposure. Maybe im totally off base but im guessing there is a lot of pressure over at Bethesda right now.

lot of it depends on the particulars of what Starfield is (i mean who knows, they may throw a curve ball) but if it's single player open world i.e. standard expectations from a "bethesda rpg" i can guarantee you Fallout 76 will be the last thing on anybody's mind. probably helps that FO76 will be like 3 years old by then anyway
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,593
It is not just "popular". It is critically acclaimed, and routinely acknowledged as one of their best RPGs ever. You're *entire* point is basically "I don't like this thing, therefore it shows they've been getting worse for some time". You're extrapolating your personal opinion to a broader trend for which there is literally zero evidence and a huge amount of counter evidence.

Separate out your personal feelings might help you understand why most of the discussion about Anthem highlights how far Bioware have fallen since Mass Effect 2, rather than say Baldurs Gate.
The point of it being less an rpg than ME1, and most certainly Balder's Gate holds true. ME2 is a great game, but an rpg it is not.
 

Sha_96

Member
Jan 22, 2019
675
Because they had to follow the GAAS bullshit market, I wish they'd just go back to singleplayers games and stick with them
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,209
The point of it being less an rpg than ME1, and most certainly Balder's Gate holds true. ME2 is a great game, but an rpg it is not.

Its a fair superior RPG than ME1 for many people, me included. I've been roleplaying and playing CRPGs since the early 90s, and one of ME2s greatest strengths is in its characters and the side quests they have. The fact it has a more action focused system is to its strengths - ME1s hybrid system of having the player aim the cursor but then hidden dice rolls that depended on your skill level was terrible.

ME2 has some of the strongest characters Bioware has written. It expanded three of the original cast substantially (Garrus in particular), it had their best romance plotline (Samara) and really pushed what Bioware could do in terms of playing a specific role. It also (for once) introduced some degree of grayness in the Renegade / Paragon system, compared to ME1 where renegade generally meant "sociopathic murderer).

ME2 did a better job than ME1 at making me feel something in the game and care more about the characters. It felt like "my Shepherd". Its why numerous people did multiple runs of the game to see the different options, dialogues and relationships unfold depending on your choices. Isn't that more roleplaying than a game where for one of the most fundamental dialogues and decisions in the game, what your party members say depends upon the order you clicked them into your party at the mission start?
 
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sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,767
Italy
Both your examples are studios going outside of their comfort zone to try something new. In both cases it didn't work, and while I have zero interest to play either Anthem or Fallout 76, I think it's healthy and necessary that studios try something new. Hopefully they learned from their mistakes and have gained experience for their next projects.

One thing is trying something new exploiting your strengths (e.g., Naughty Dogs from Uncharted to The Last of Us); one thing is trying something new because the head company says so as a way to align products to current trends.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Others caught up and even surpassed them in many areas. They stagnated or even went backwards in some regards.

Bethesda's jank and issues were always there but were overlooked at earlier times. Still putting out games nowadays without much progress in those regards has caught up to them.

Bioware has just lost its identity, not knowing what they want to be and doing everything they attempt to the height of mediocrity.

Studios lacking both identity, vision and a sense of knowing what to do with themselves. The height of reactionary "lets just jump on the latest cash-cow" whilst the teams being put on projects are inexperienced and even arguably clueless about the genres or styles they are attempting. It's not as easy as just saying, Destiny, PUBG, etc, copy that shit, please.

Bethesda went as far as taking a janky SP game and saying we'll just make it multiplayer like some free community hacked-in MP mod. EA told Bioware, a studio with next to no MP experience or a studio without a history of excelling with MP to create a Destiny GAAS clone.

What could possibly go wrong in those situations? Well, nearly fucking everything.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
The people that made those amazing games before either retired or left the company. They aren't the same teams that made the games that made them good.

Then you got them making games that aren't in their wheelhouse

And finally, they were trying to chase trends rather than make them.

Oh and I'll point out that I'm both cases, it was the studio trying to do something with their engine it wasn't designed to do
 

JLP101

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,780
Does making one bad game = fall so low now?

I say give them a chance to redeem themselves, although I would argue Bethseda's games get more and more shallow with each passing game.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
While i agree with the first point it makes the second point looks even weirder

If Fallout 3 wasnt as good as a RPG (and it wasnt) then Fallout 4 sure didnt do any better as one
I won't say that FO4 is better in RPG mechanics

but FO4 is certainly a better overall game than FO3 -- as far as polish, technical aspects, jankiness
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,792
Easy answer for bio2are. The people that made all those games we love have moved on from that studio by now. If I remember correctly when the founders retired didn't most of the long standing talent jump ship?

Bethesda on the other hand, I feel their competition has left them in the dust. They can't get away with releasing broken ass games anymore when their competitors have huge games that work well at release and aren't shit shows.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,897
Both companies have slowly, but steadily moved further away from RPG and closer to action shooters. Fallout 4 and Fallout 76 were logical follow-ups for Bethesda since with every game they brought out they removed more and more RPG elements.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,016
United Kingdom
Seems like GaaS = Do as little as possible for as much money as possible.

It makes it it even worse when they release after Destiny 2 and other GaaS but are worse than even Destiny 1 when that first launched.
 

nDesh

The Three Eyed Raven
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,173
Also, there's a BIG mismanagement going on in BioWare.

Besides the Andromeda and Anthem disasters, DAI was released more than 4 years ago, it finished with a big sequel-bait, it had critical and commercial success, and where is the sequel? it was being developed at least 3 years ago, we know that the Sunless Sea writer was doing work for it, and now the project was rebooted because it will have *Live elements*, Mark Darrah (executive producer) was moved to Anthem and Mike Laidlaw (Director) left BioWare.
 

Buff Beefbroth

Chicken Chaser
Member
Apr 12, 2018
3,083
Bethesda was already slipping starting with Oblivion, and the writing on the wall for Bioware began to appear when The Old Republic was revealed to be an MMO.
 

Sabin

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,776
Folks tend to forget that since FO4 and DA:I games like Witcher 3 and Divinity: Original Sin 2 happend.

Both Bathesda and Bioware have to step up their game or they will be left behind with their medicore story, janky mechanics and bug riddled releases especially with Cyberpunk releasing in 2020 which will probably lift RPG to another level again.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,827
They didn't focus on what they're good at or known for and instead chased GaaS. This is by far some of the most disheartening turns for me.
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,136
I'm not convinced traditional RPG storytelling fits well with GaaS. Maybe? I guess the like FFXI and FFXIV stories and WoW too are supposedly great. Is that a GaaS / are those GaaS?