The franchise literally cannot catch a break and I feel kinda bad for Sega. I don't know what happened but all of these years have not been kind to Sonic. The franchise seems to be clean every few years but eventually reverts back to being laughed at (see Sonic Generations to Sonic Boom/Lost World or Sonic Mania to Forces) and there is also that racing game coming out in May but they took away all the other sega characters which is Strange
And now that Sonic movie trailer came out and it just has box office bomb written all over it and it looks so poor compared to Detective Pikachu. What a shame.
It was a product of its time. 2D Sonic mechanics don't translate well to 3D, and the series missed the train when it was critical for Sega's survival.
I'm convinced that Sonic Mania (which is a good game!) did well mainly because people were sick of Sega's weird experiments with the series. If it had come out in 1997 I'm fairly sure it would have been destroyed by critcs.
Sonic was a product of his time, and embodied it well. It's not the 90's anymore, and he just hasn't found a way to adopt without leaning on his own nostalgia.
Mania was great, Forces was bad but not an absolute train wreck, the Kart games are solid Generations was solid, Unleashed was okay.
There are decent Sonic games out there. It's a super inconsistent franchise, and generally offers up weaker games over good ones, but it's by no means a complete train wreck.
I actually disagree with this. 3D allows a behind the back camera which improves the distance at which you can see objects, which works well if you're going fast. Sonic Adventure 2's Sonic and Shadow sections still hold up, for example, those game suffered for other reasons. Having large areas with multiple ways to progress could also work well in 3D too, since you've now got more freedom in which directions the stage is built in.
I actually disagree with this. 3D allows a behind the back camera which improves the distance at which you can see objects, which works well if you're going fast. Sonic Adventure 2's Sonic and Shadow sections still hold up, for example. Having large areas with multiple ways to progress could also work well in 3D too, since you've now got more freedom in which directions the stage is built in.
I like the weird experimental nature of the series frankly. I don't think I'd enjoy it as much if it weren't. Even my reaction to Forces and Mania, probably the two most pure retreads was "yeah, they're OK" (even Generations was at least getting to the point where it was tidying up a lot of the sloppier bits of Unleashed despite being very obviously derivative). Mania didn't get good until Ray the Squirrel was in it.
The truth is that Sega is just a company that mismanages their IPs painfully. You see this by other companies, mostly Nintendo, capitalizing on their failures or lost opportunities.
Fire Emblem is a huge hit for Nintendo both in Japan and in the West as it does a good mix of SRPG combat as well as dating sim mechanics. This is exactly what Sega did with Sakura Wars but they never brought it over to the West until it was WAY too late. Sega later brought back the Valkyria Chronicles franchise but literally changed nothing of it from the very first game so it tanked.
Mario has been a tremendous hit for Nintendo as they have redefined how the character plays in a 3D space multiple times, as well as brought back the franchise to its 2D roots for a full priced entires. It's been twenty years since Sonic Adventure and Sega STILL has yet to make a quality 3D Sonic game. It's not like it is impossible, there have been a few fan games that have nailed the formula down in 3D. As for 2D entries, I mean outside of Mania, it's been a disaster. And even then Mania was sold as a budget title while New Super Mario Bros. were full priced boxed entries.
Sega also really struggled hard with its unique and different titles, including "cool" and "stylish" games like Jet Set Radio. They did well critically but ranged from poor to moderate commercially. Meanwhile, Nintendo releases hit titles like Splatoon and Arms which have the Dreamcast feel but the Nintendo sales.
Really the list goes on and on. The company constantly mismanaged itself and what success they have they quickly fumble. Just look at the Yakuza franchise. Instead of releasing one or two games per generation they oversatured the shit out of them and now sales are declining.
This is another reason. The Sega you grew up with died in 2003 after Sammy reconstructed the company. But even then they had a hard time selling titles and did insanely stupid things such as releasing a sequel to Shinobi simply called "Nightshade" or let their developers put so much focus on the Xbox.
I don't see any issue with the movie honestly. I could somewhat see the design complaints but aside from that it seems to be good for what it is. I find it much more likeable than Modern Sonic and his trashy friends.
Otherwise they haven't been doing good on the game side of things.
Too many hands, too many visions. Even the brilliance that was Sonic Colors and Sonic Mania came at the behest of someone taking the reigns of the sonic character, lore and gameplay type and wildly changing it.
It feels like no one wants to own it so every time a new game comes out, someone has to reinvent what a sonic game is while loosely clutching mechanics from old games because they're convinced "that's what made those games good".
Mario works because the people behind Mario don't change. Even as things take hard swings in various directions, the core concept of what Mario is stays the same. Sonic gets pulled in every direction to match with every gaming gimmick that shows up and it suffers dramatically for it, but no one wants to own it, so it can never be relied on as good.
What you a X years old player like, is not the same thing a younger 10yo player like.
Where Generation was aimed at me, a 22yo (at the time) guy who grew up with Sonic 2D and Adventure, Sonic World/Boom was aimed at that 10yo at the time.
Same with Mania last year, which was aimed at everyone but even more us, and Force or the Movie being aimed at kids.
Video games are products that can aim at varied targets and that is why licences evolve.
If anything, Sonic is one of the licences that evolved both to satisfy its former fans (Generations, Mania) and new discoverers (Boom, Forces, Movie) compared to others. Even if I don't like those iterations for younger people, I can respect what they do (I'd prefer if they were good in their own right though).
the Story and lore didn't help. People make fun of Sonics friends but honestly, the stories and characters deserve it. It should be about the levels and speed and not about the garbage around it.
I would love Nintendo to make a sonic game. Nintendo is the master of making the controls feel right. I loved Sonic better than the Mario games. When Mario jumped to 3D, it was one of the greatest games ever created. I spent so much of time just running around. Sonic never felt right in 3D. If Nintendo made it, it would be as revolutionary as Mario 64. Even Team ASOBI would be great. They nailed the controls and mechanics for Astrobot and it was just fun to move around.
I actually disagree with this. 3D allows a behind the back camera which improves the distance at which you can see objects, which works well if you're going fast. Sonic Adventure 2's Sonic and Shadow sections still hold up, for example, those game suffered for other reasons. Having large areas with multiple ways to progress could also work well in 3D too, since you've now got more freedom in which directions the stage is built in.
Where Generation was aimed at me, a 22yo (at the time) guy who grew up with Sonic 2D and Adventure, Sonic World/Boom was aimed at that 10yo at the time.
Same with Mania last year, which was aimed at everyone but even more us, and Force or the Movie being aimed at kids.
Agreed, Colors is the best 3D sonic, but a lot of people don't like it because it's more gameplay centric and doesn't have a lot of the post 1999 attitude.
But it was though. And that's the thing, when sonic had a unified vision back in the early 90's, those games turned out well. Maybe not greatest of all time well but sonic 1-3, sonic and knuckles, sonic CD, they are all varied levels of good, but no one is saying that those games are awful or trainwrecks or travesties against game design. They may not have been for everyone, but they were, at worst, decent titles.
And then...we hit the saturn...and things just spun out of control, and we only really got it back by fluke. In the past 20 years, I'd say there were...4 decent sonic games out of...what...17? That's...alarming. And some of the bad games, the truly bad ones are barely acceptables messes given to people who seemed like novices in the field. Sonic and the 7 Secret Rings is a game that never should have shipped, and they were using that as their headline game on the Wii!
What's interesting to me is that Sonic has had such a long historical low that people just forget about stuff that people used to hate during the glory days like Sonic Spinball.
They shouldn't have been, like, 15 minutes long each but they're fine, honestly. Love using the stretchy arms to propel up from a ledge and then double jump to quickly grab higher surfaces than the level design would initially suggest you can or should do.
It was never particularly great. People like to talk about the speedy platforming mechanics, but the main appeal of Sonic was to be an edgier alternative to Mario for the NES kids that were now in their pre-teen/early teen years. You're gonna have trouble building a strong IP with that as a base.
I still say that every single one of the gimmick sonic games would have been really well received if those mechanics existed within the original 2D space.
I'd be super hyped if I got to play a 2D sonic game but Sonic was a knight or could turn into a werewolf.
I mean, I have my beef with the series, but every Sonic game since Colors has been average at worst (discounting Sonic Boom but that's just a TV series tie-in title that I keep forgetting exists unlike Sonic 06).
And the Sonic movie has likely little to do with Sega. Blame the producers at Paramount who have seemingly no faith in the concept.
Very few people seem to understand what made the 16-bit games tic. Many nowadays don't seem to know how to even play, complaining about running right and hitting obstacles.
Maybe people at Sega didn't understand. Sonic adventure completely missed the point oh, and it's been downhill from there.
What's interesting to me is that Sonic has had such a long historical low that people just forget about stuff that people used to hate during the glory days like Sonic Spinball.
There's a really good book out there called Console Wars that I'd heavily recommend you or anyone interested in how Sega as a company runs. It's written a little strange but the amount of information in it is fascinating, to give you a TL;DR is it: Sega of Japan is a complete mess and the idea that Sonic was made more dark and edgy when he was brought over to the states is compete nonsense because it was actually Sega of America who forced Sonic Team to change him from this bizarre vampire toothed murderer to something actually marketable. Sonic Team really never fully knew what they wanted to do with Sonic and as Sega of Japan decided to start ignoring Sega of America's concerns and began ruling the entire company with more of an iron fist, things just went completely downhill from there. A lot of the executives of SoJ never really gave a damn about video games either, which really added to how bad things started going.
I replayed both last year. The Black Knight is fine for a Wii game, the Werehog isn't that bad, especially considering you just have to go through those levels once to be able to replay the good ones.
It was never particularly great. People like to talk about the speedy platforming mechanics, but the main appeal of Sonic was to be an edgier alternative to Mario for the NES kids that were now in their pre-teen/early teen years. You're gonna have trouble building a strong IP with that as a base.
Sonic Mania, along with all the media surrounding it, is pretty much an indictment against this dumb "the series was never good" notion.
Yes, Sonic was designed around corporate marketing. Big whoop, it's gaming's most open secret and the most boring and worn out trivia zinger. That doesn't mean that people involved with it at the time didn't know how to spin that concept into something with lasting longevity.
Next people are gonna find out that Avengers were created just because Marvel needed to compete with Justice League.
There's a really good book out there called Console Wars that I'd heavily recommend you or anyone interested in how Sega as a company runs. It's written a little strange but the amount of information in it is fascinating, to give you a TL;DR is it: Sega of Japan is a complete mess and the idea that Sonic was made more dark and edgy when he was brought over to the states is compete nonsense because it was actually Sega of America who forced Sonic Team to change him from this bizarre vampire toothed murderer to something actually marketable. Sonic Team really never fully knew what they wanted to do with Sonic and as Sega of Japan decided to start ignoring Sega of America's concerns and began ruling the entire company with more of an iron fist, things just went completely downhill from there.
I still remember that story of Yuji Naka and the SOJ team coming to America and thumbing their nose at Sonic CD while also being completely aghast at the more serious tone of the Archie Comics of the time, basically stating that they can never go there with Sonic.
And 20 years later, it was the defacto tone THEY used.
Mmmmm, my understanding of the book was that it is heavily fictionalized to the point that anything more than broad generalizations are true (i.e., sure, Japan had different ideas for the theming of the series than the US -- but Tails was never called 'Miles Monotail' and his backstory probably did not make Japanese executives weep)
I replayed both last year. The Black Knight is fine for a Wii game, the Werehog isn't that bad, especially considering you just have to go through those levels once to be able to replay the good ones.
Black Knight is not fine, it barely works. It is Sega's tacit admission that they had no idea what they were doing with motion controls.
So many levels where you just fall through the floor or clip through walls...it's top to bottom terrible and it and 7 rings should have never been released. At least the bosses were so poorly designed that you could beat most of them just by waving the controller as hard as you could and nuke their AI into existence.
What AWFUL games. They make Boom look like Mario Odyssey.
I'm convinced that Sonic Mania (which is a good game!) did well mainly because people were sick of Sega's weird experiments with the series. If it had come out in 1997 I'm fairly sure it would have been destroyed by critcs.
Well yeah, that was also a period in the industry when 2D was shunned. Mania attempts to be what a true 2D Sonic game for the Saturn would have been, but Sega would have never made that game at that time. Only recently has that style of gameplay come back in vogue. Nintendo would have never released New Super Mario Bros. for the Nintendo 64, either.
Anyway, more to the point, Sonic is always something that's asked its fan base to just sort of ignore the bad stuff. In the last ten years I've gotten Sonic Colors, Generations and Mania. Like don't get me wrong, Boom and Forces are abominable and Lost World was meh, but I don't see why so many people let Internet negativity ruin their enjoyment of the better efforts. They're just video games.
The more I look at this trailer the more I actually like this movie. Of course I'm speculating wildly about the possibilities of what it's setting up, but still.
The more I look at this trailer the more I actually like this movie. Of course I'm speculating wildly about the possibilities of what it's setting up, but still.
The biggest problem that I have with the movie is that it looks dull. I look at it and I see the trailer for the Smurfs or Secret Life of Pets, soulless movies driven by star power that just make your groan for 40 minutes before you fall asleep.
I don't know how they'd do it, but imagine if the movie was as crazy as the Mario movie, a objectively bad movie, but one that is NEVER boring.
The 3D Sonic games almost never took advantage of momentum based gameplay. The adventure games had some semblance of it but they ditched it shortly after and then Sonic Rush introduced the boost mechanic (which was ironically fine in that game, but subsequent games became boost to win and reduced control of Sonic even further)
Sonic always seemed like it was at its best using pinball mechanics and preserving momentum to gain and maintain speed. The franchise could've learned something from Super Monkey Ball and Metroid Prime tbh.
And I'll never buy all the "Sonic was never good" or "Sonic gameplay doesn't translate into 3D well" arguments.
Sega just never got it right and after a huge slump, never tried again.
edit - Lots of people in the thread on the whole "Sonic was never good" train. They are either 1) trolling or 2) too young to have played Sonic back in the 90s
