signal

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(captions maybe helpful for that second video) This isn't some gotcha question since I like Chomsky, but today basically every popular advocate of free speech is on the right or some IDW bootlicker. Him voicing his opinion on the importance of free speech is nothing new, so I don't think it's been 'tainted' by the people who constantly bring it up recently, but do Chomsky fans generally agree with him on this or no? Is it just viewed as part of him being a libertarian or do you think he's wrong? I'm from Canada and never thought (and still don't think) the hate speech laws there are bad, but he seems to be against them generally.
 
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Tiger Priest

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Oct 24, 2017
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I agree with him entirely. Freedom of speech is necessary even if the speech is repugnant.

Now, of course there can and should be many social consequences for saying these things... but the government shouldn't jail you for saying them.
 

digitalrelic

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change
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Why would anyone be against free speech? Free speech doesn't mean speech without backlash or consequences.
 
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Deleted member 2809

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I don't like him and US free speech is dumb fucking shit. Hate speech shouldn't be protected period.
 

Sapiens

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Oct 26, 2017
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Freedom of Speech is great because you get the watch the assholes self destruct because they don't realize that they are not free from consequence.
 

PeskyToaster

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The right isn't talking about freedom of speech when they complain about getting banned on Twitter. That's a misdirection and a misconception.
 
OP
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signal

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Why would anyone be against free speech? Free speech doesn't meant speech without backlash or consequences.
I don't know if people from countries that have hate speech laws dislike the fact that those laws exist, or at least I haven't met many. Perhaps people leave it out when thinking of free speech, but that's at least one example of a divine between what 'free speech' could mean in the US vs other countries, so in that sense people could be against it.
 

Lumination

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Oct 26, 2017
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The premise of the first video, that Holocaust denial is unknown in the US because we have not disallowed it, is patently false at this point. At one point in our history, allowing facts vs unfacts to be debated made sense. In this reality, where uncle Bob and aunt Karen will pick facebook news based on what they WANT TO BELIEVE, that supposition no longer holds.
 

Tawpgun

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Oct 25, 2017
9,863
There are limits to speech even in the US. You can get in legal trouble if your speech is meant to incite violence for instance.

But like others have said, free speech from a governments perspective is important to uphold. And you want to be wary of a government deciding what speech is ok and what isn't.

Yes it sucks racists can just be openly racist but you gotta also consider that if the government had more power to regulate speech Trump could jail people for kneeling for the anthem or burning flags or declare BLM is a terrorist organization and jail people who show support for it.
 

Servbot24

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Oct 25, 2017
43,539
I agree with him entirely. Freedom of speech is necessary even if the speech is repugnant.

Now, of course there can and should be many social consequences for saying these things... but the government shouldn't jail you for saying them.
Agreed with this.
If you say something racist, I will say in response: "you are racist and I wish to have no societal involvement with you". And if a million people say the same thing, you have dug yourself a hole.
 

anexanhume

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think the US view is too narrowly focused because of the fetishization of the Bill of Rights. A more complete view includes freedom of the press, which the US does not lead on and is only getting worse.

And remember that free speech that isn't even classical hate speech can infringe on others' rights. A prime example is doxxing and its impact to privacy rights.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
30,411
Are there really Chomsky fans?

Both videos seem hopelessly outdated. frankly Hate speech should never be protected but determining what's the difference between hate speech and just plain shitty speech is never going to be simple and I'd generally agree that some caution is needed in determining how those powers are assigned to the government lest it be used against you by an oppressive regime.
 

Good4Squat

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Nov 2, 2017
3,176
He makes a good point since just because you are preventing people from speaking certain things don't mean they aren't still thinking them or speaking about it among like minded individuals. Germany bans plenty of things about nazism but they still have a significant problem with them, so I'm not sure how much it is really accomplishing.
 

Aftervirtue

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Nov 13, 2017
1,616
Are there really Chomsky fans?

Both videos seem hopelessly outdated. frankly Hate speech should never be protected but determining what's the difference between hate speech and just plain shitty speech is never going to be simple and I'd generally agree that some caution is needed in determining how those powers are assigned to the government lest it be used against you by an oppressive regime.
Chomsky is universally regarded and I would wager almost any/all leftist/progressives have had an encounter with Chomsky to thank for their political leaning. Dude has been on the right side of history for almost a century.
 
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signal

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The premise of the first video, that Holocaust denial is unknown in the US because we have not disallowed it, is patently false at this point. At one point in our history, allowing facts vs unfacts to be debated made sense. In this reality, where uncle Bob and aunt Karen will pick facebook news based on what they WANT TO BELIEVE, that supposition no longer holds.
That's interesting, and maybe mostly true. It's easy to not be ignored nowadays.
 

entremet

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I agree with him. The ACLU has a similar view. I'm obviously not talking about death threats.
 

Froyo Love

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The premise of the first video, that Holocaust denial is unknown in the US because we have not disallowed it, is patently false at this point. At one point in our history, allowing facts vs unfacts to be debated made sense. In this reality, where uncle Bob and aunt Karen will pick facebook news based on what they WANT TO BELIEVE, that supposition no longer holds.
Agreed. If the argument is about outcomes, then a lot better analysis is required than some off-the-cuff assumptions about Holocaust denial that don't seem true these days. We seem to have plenty of people holding shitty, anti-historical views in the United States that the free exchange of ideas has done more to promote than to diminish.

The U.S. approach to speech rights is obviously better than oppressive regimes, maybe better than the U.K. or Canada with their more restrictive libel laws or France with their nationalist approach to restricting religious expression, but other European states with a relatively high degree of liberty and stronger hate speech laws? I'm dubious.
 

JohnsonUT

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Oct 27, 2017
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OP, the right wing "free speech" arguments are rarely about actual free speech issues. Their arguments usually center around them being given a platform to express their free speech. "Twitter banned me. My free speech". "The university cancelled my speech. But 1st amendment"
 
OP
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signal

signal

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OP, the right wing "free speech" arguments are rarely about actual free speech issues. Their arguments usually center around them being given a platform to express their free speech. "Twitter banned me. My free speech". "The university cancelled my speech. But 1st amendment"
Yeah I'm not thinking they're the same, and I'm sure anyone who agreed with him previously hasn't had their opinion shifted by Ben Shapiro or whomever, just wondering in general and thought Chomsky would be a good figure to use.
 

Mivey

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think the Holocaust is a dumb example, as the historical precedent in Germany and Austria easily explains why legally forbidding Holocaust denial and any kind of direct continuation of Nazi ideology ("Wiederbetätigung") was seen as such an important and necessary thing. I will allow though, that it's arguable whether this importance still holds now, at least to the same degree as it did in the second half of the 20th century.
I also don't agree with him that Holocaust denial isn't a thing in the US, I'm sure enough people believed and continue to believe in it. Saying it's not yet widespread, so therefore it's ok doesn't sound like a convincing argument in times of social media, as others have posted out.

I also feel this is a very privileged position, from someone who never had to endure hate speech, simply for being of a certain skin colour or gender or orientation. "Let it all work itself out in the free market of ideas, what could go wrong?".
Edit: So yeah, talking out of my ass on this one. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by my ignorance.
My ultimate point, though, as I explain a bit later in this thread, is that I think Chromskys argument doesn't take into the rise of modern social media,it's pervasivenes and also how speech in a sense has even been weaponised (quite literally when you consider bots on social media), so I think it's too simple to just rule out stricter regulation of speech itself.
 
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JohnsonUT

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Yeah I'm not thinking they're the same, and I'm sure anyone who agreed with him previously hasn't had their opinion shifted by Ben Shapiro or whomever, just wondering in general and thought Chomsky would be a good figure to use.
Cool. I have seen Chomsky being revisited a lot lately in light of all that has happened the last few years. I am curious to see how he is viewed in the future as well.
 

EatChildren

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Chomsky's fundamental concern with silencing speech is the consequences of developing a collective reliance on it as a means of addressing destructive ideologies as opposed to prioritising education and reform, and he sees said reliance as counter intuitive towards the pursuit of social growth. Much in the same way that communal health, education, a general wellbeing cannot be addressed without providing equity to all people within a civilisation, the growth of ideas and understanding cannot be achieved through restriction. It does not permit those ideas to be addressed and contested, and in turn does not nurture collective growth. Ideas that remain uncontested will eternally simmer in the social psyche as permissible, just legally forbidden, which attracts intrigue and hysteria. Or, in short; to eradicate destructive ideologies you must address the ideology and its flaws, drawing upon intellectual and educational enlightenment as opposed to progress through force.

It's obviously not black and white though. Hate speech laws are extremely important, particularly in spaces where people need to be protected. And there is a real danger to the status quo of entertainment platforming bigots, because people love drama, ignorant or deliberately apathetic towards the ramifications of giving those bigots a very public platform. We see that a lot these days, with entertainment networks giving bigots and hate speech a platform because they know it results in traffic, and thus profit. And often these bigots go uncontested, even if the platform isn't inherently aligned with their speech, because they know the statement's they'll make are incendiary and thus attentive.

Chomsky also comes from an era where communication was different. I don't think we really have a grasp on just how unbelievably monumental the advent of digital communication and globalised networking is, in shaping communities, people, education, and access to information. It's the absolute best and worst thing for us. It's unvetted, unorganised, and uncontrollable in the traditional sense. It truly is the "marketplace of ideas" in all its horrors, and capitalistic infrastructure dominates it. It's largely unpoliced and unmonitored, fuelled by a weird mix of libertarian freedom of idea exchange and corporate interest. And this has created an absolute cesspit of shit, where ideas are freely exchanged in all their abhorrent forms, and enormous organisations are free to monopolise on whatever speech fuels their revenue.

I don't necessarily agree with Chomsky's approach in full, largely because of the above. But that is the root of the concern; apathy towards addressing dangerous ideals by silencing through force, which historically has done a terrible job of preventing those ideas from manifesting on the social psyche. His fundamental concern with silencing speech is that it allows that speech to permit unaddressed intellectually, and gives power to political bodies to silence speech, which is only as good as it benefits the people who agree, and that can change dramatically depending on who is in power. And that, obviously, is a real concern.

But yeah. It's complicated. I firmly believe the blanket silencing approach to hostile speech is not the right path to social growth. I do not believe humans, as a species, and as a collective community, can truly grow without intellectually challenging our ideas. Ideas must become consensus for it to be true growth. And that does not come through authoritarian force. But, of course, I also don't believe in freedom of platforming. I've no belief people have a right to be platformmed for their bullshit whenever, wherever they want. I also think the solution to speech is complicated; it's not just about giving people freedom to speech and that's that, it's also the importance of an education system that is richly ingrained in human society. Dangerous, hateful ideology can only be addressed through a network of complex social reforms. I do believe free speech is a part of that, in some form. And again, the modern digital world further complicates matters in pretty scary ways.

I also feel this is a very privileged position, from someone who never had to endure heat speech, simply for being of certain skin colour or gender or orientation. "Let it all work itself out in the free market of ideas, it will all work out".

He's a Jew. I'm sure he's endured and been exposed to a fair assortment of hate speech, given he was alive in America during WW2.

Are there really Chomsky fans?

Yes and for extremely good reasons.
 
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signal

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Chomsky also comes from an era where communication was different. I don't think we really have a grasp on just how unbelievably monumental the advent of digital communication and globalised networking is, in shaping communities, people, education, and access to information. It's the absolute best and worst thing for us. It's unvetted, unorganised, and uncontrollable in the traditional sense. It truly is the "marketplace of ideas" in all its horrors, and capitalistic infrastructure dominates it. It's largely unpoliced and unmonitored, fuelled by a weird mix of libertarian freedom of idea exchange and corporate interest. And this has created an absolute cesspit of shit, where ideas are freely exchanged in all their abhorrent forms, and enormous organisations are free to monopolise on whatever speech fuels their revenue.

I don't necessarily agree with Chomsky's approach in full, largely because of the above.
Similar to what Lumination said, and yeah it seems reasonable.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Free speech is an incredibly complicated issue and I don't even think I have a holistic grasp of my own feelings on it. But generally I lean more towards thinking we are far less restrictive of certain types of speech than we should be. Not even just hate speech, but dangerous ideas like Qanon type shit.

Anyone who is a hardline "you should be able to say anything you want" free speech advocate is stupid as shit in my opinion. Unequivocally some speech is violence.
 

Clefargle

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No society has 100% "free speech"

It's a false Dichotomy.

I can't call for a mob to kill someone or incite violence in most countries
 

andymcc

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Oct 25, 2017
26,638
Columbus, OH
OP, the right wing "free speech" arguments are rarely about actual free speech issues. Their arguments usually center around them being given a platform to express their free speech. "Twitter banned me. My free speech". "The university cancelled my speech. But 1st amendment"

Yeah.

Also, I don't trust the US to enforce speech laws appropriately. If legal agencies had the ability to police speech here, BLM posts on Twitter would be prosecuted for hate speech much faster than everyday racist shit.
 

Prax

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Oct 25, 2017
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I generally respect Chomsky but he is the type of intellectual (INTP for those of you who like mbti pseudoscience haha!) who sometimes has dumbshit ideas/ideals about how people x ideas behave.

I am good with hate speech laws.
 

EatChildren

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Oct 27, 2017
7,096
Similar to what Lumination said, and yeah it seems reasonable.

It's that catch 22. The internet gives freedom to say whatever you want, in some place or another, because it's a set of global networks and not confined to a specific, controllable ecosystem. No amount of policing can stop communities forming, and so they do in grotesque ways, often as echo chambers where a consensus of acceptable ideas is nurtured and alternatives are rejected (by force, if necessary). No country or political ideology can control this in full. Yet the internet is also a resource, one exploited by corporations, in a world that is fundamentally capitalistic. And so the free space for ideas is laden with hypocrisy. You're free to say whatever you want, but like-minded people will naturally gather together and protect their ideas by force which in turn harbour insipid groupthink. The space is free and open and uncontrolled, but all the major services for platforming speech to the widest audience are corporate and controlled, and more vested in interests that increase revenue over social progress and enlightenment.

The internet is hell.
 

Browser

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Apr 13, 2019
2,031
Agree with him 100%.

Let these groups talk, that way everyone knows who they are and what they want, so they can face the social consequences.

And of course, the limits given i agree with 1005 also, no incitation of violence and no yelling fire at a crowded theater, etc.

And also, something important to point out here, most people who uses freedom of speech and get the backlash cite censorship and all that, its only when the govt is censoring your right to speak that you can invoke that. When a private company or group is not letting you speak through their platform, is their way of telling you that you can believe whatever you want, but not in their environment. So what chomsky is saying already works for the private sector, dont know why would anyone advocate for laws censoring people? Its fine the way it is. Let these rotten people air the rotten ideas, that way we know how to avoid it.
 

TheLucasLite

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Aug 27, 2018
1,446
The precedent to suppress speech is something I worry about. As historically it doesn't end well for progressives, as reactionaries will look for any avenue to abuse that precedence for authoritarian ends. And I know, they're just as willing to try and abuse free speech as well, but if push comes to shove, upholding free speech that allows me to push back on horrible (but allowed) ideas is preferable to the risk of losing that ability to push back altogether.
 

Dehnus

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Oct 30, 2017
1,900






(captions maybe helpful for that second video) This isn't some gotcha question since I like Chomsky, but today basically every popular advocate of free speech is on the right or some IDW bootlicker. Him voicing his opinion on the importance of free speech is nothing new, so I don't think it's been 'tainted' by the people who constantly bring it up recently, but do Chomsky fans generally agree with him on this or no? Is it just viewed as part of him being a libertarian or do you think he's wrong? I'm from Canada and never (and still don't) thought the hate speech laws there are bad, but he seems to be against them generally.

Yes, the difference is: he says it in good faith and well meaning. Where as the right does it in bad faith and to shut up opponents. In short the right appropriated something as per usual and as per usual they tainted, twisted and warped it until it suited their agenda and could be used in a weapon of harm and to shut up dissent.

In short they do not practise speech, they practise over shouting and don't allow you your opinion. Also outing trans people like Milo Yiannopoulos does is a good example. That's not free speech, it's weapon of intimidation!
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
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Some societies have freer speech than others
So long as you have the money or anonymity to protect you materially from consequences

Ultimately there is no such thing in the truest sense of "free". Corporations can sue, you can be fined, you can be jailed for calling for someone's death. More free/less free isn't "absolutely free", and that's my point. Freedom of speech is always one of degrees of freedom and not ultimate freedom. Because the only way that exists is if it were a single individual on the planet speaking to themselves.
 

Arebours

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Chomsky is a person who was the subject of censorship, silencing and "cancelling" many times over the years. He knows what he is talking about.
 

Deleted member 11413

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I generally agree with him, any broad power you grant to the government has the potential to be abused, and most governments WILL abuse that power when it is convenient. Giving them broad powers to suppress speech specifically is thus extremely dangerous.

Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences of your speech. Deplatforming works pretty well. Even with these protections in the US our government still attempts to suppress speech through violence and intimidation (see the BLM protests). Giving them more tools to do that is a woefully shortsighted idea.
 

Deleted member 11413

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I also feel this is a very privileged position, from someone who never had to endure hate speech, simply for being of a certain skin colour or gender or orientation. "Let it all work itself out in the free market of ideas, what could go wrong?".
Chomsky is Jewish, a group of people who have been enduring insane levels of hate speech for centuries. Extremely ignorant to suggest he doesn't understand the harms of hate speech, like insultingly so.
 

Mivey

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Oct 25, 2017
18,121
He's a Jew. I'm sure he's endured and been exposed to a fair assortment of hate speech, given he was alive in America during WW2.
Chomsky is Jewish, a group of people who have been enduring insane levels of hate speech for centuries. Extremely ignorant to suggest he doesn't understand the harms of hate speech, like insultingly so.
True, I didn't know that. I feel though that the way speech is much more immediate and personal today, as opposed to even 20 years ago, makes his points feel pointlessly idealistic and dated.
Leaving out all the physical, non-digital elements of racism (which haven't changed as much), just focusing on the digital elements here:
Having to read a bunch of angry letters, in pre WW2 America is not the same as having people call you terrible things just because of you who are, on the very medium you interact with friends and family, and which is, at the very least, a not insignificant tool of social intercourse for you.
 

Deleted member 11413

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True, I didn't know that. I feel though that the way speech is much more immediate and personal today, as opposed to even 20 years ago, makes his points feel pointlessly idealistic and dated.
Leaving out all the physical, non-digital elements of racism (which haven't changed as much), just focusing on the digital elements here:
Having to read a bunch of angry letters, in pre WW2 America is not the same as having people call you terrible things just because of you who are, on the very medium you interact with friends and family, and which is, at the very least, a not insignificant tool of social intercourse for you.
Uh....I'm positive that Chomsky has been harassed in person many times, both for being Jewish and for being an outspoken leftist critic of imperialism. Had his life threatened, had all manner of hate speech directed at him. Downplaying all that as 'letters' is, again, insulting. Just take the L on this point, you can disagree with Chomsky's position but your assumptions about his experiences are demonstrably false.
 

collige

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Oct 31, 2017
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I agree with him.
True, I didn't know that. I feel though that the way speech is much more immediate and personal today, as opposed to even 20 years ago, makes his points feel pointlessly idealistic and dated.
Leaving out all the physical, non-digital elements of racism (which haven't changed as much), just focusing on the digital elements here:
Having to read a bunch of angry letters, in pre WW2 America is not the same as having people call you terrible things just because of you who are, on the very medium you interact with friends and family, and which is, at the very least, a not insignificant tool of social intercourse for you.
But... letters were the very medium you interact with friends and family with in pre-WW2 America
 

Mivey

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Oct 25, 2017
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I don't see physical letters as having the immediacy and comprehensive nature of modern communications, and believe the presence of such media is the reason one needs to consider "free speech" more critically. In a pre-Internet world, I would agree with Chomksy, as it is, I do not.
 

Gio

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True, I didn't know that. I feel though that the way speech is much more immediate and personal today, as opposed to even 20 years ago, makes his points feel pointlessly idealistic and dated.
Leaving out all the physical, non-digital elements of racism (which haven't changed as much), just focusing on the digital elements here:
Having to read a bunch of angry letters, in pre WW2 America is not the same as having people call you terrible things just because of you who are, on the very medium you interact with friends and family, and which is, at the very least, a not insignificant tool of social intercourse for you.
Chomsky was famously blacklisted from American media for his criticism of Israel dude. What are you talking about?
 

kaiush

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Jan 22, 2018
298
Free speech just means you can't be arrest for saying things (except maybe a death threat, to some extent?). I'm all for that. But...other people also have the right to react to what you say. I'm also all for that. Twitter has every right to ban you, jobs can fire you, people can shame you. You just won't be arrested.
 

Mivey

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Oct 25, 2017
18,121
Chomsky was famously blacklisted from American media for his criticism of Israel dude. What are you talking about?
I'm talking about modern media there, and it's social effects, I am not really talking about Chomskys experiences per se. I have already acknowledged that I wasn't informed about that point.
 

Dyle

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Thinking more about this, I agree with the subtext of his argument that hate speech legislation is essentially treating the symptom, not the disease, thus greatly limiting the potential power it can wield over awful people.
That was directed at the use of the word "fan", not whether people actually agree with Chomsky's ideas. It's just a weird way to describe the relationship between him and people who agree with his work. I would say that generally I agree with Chomsky but I wouldn't say that makes me a fan of him. Guess I should have italicized the word fan.
 

Deleted member 31817

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That was directed at the use of the word "fan", not whether people actually agree with Chomsky's ideas. It's just a weird way to describe the relationship between him and people who agree with his work. I would say that generally I agree with Chomsky but I wouldn't say that makes me a fan of him. Guess I should have italicized the word fan.
Ah gotchu