DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,341
So Batman is famous for his absolute refusal to kill, no matter the situation. While good in principle, there are times when I feel this rule can be absolutely ridiculous. Like in Arkham Knight Shadow War, one option has him refusing to kill Ra's despite the man being a zombie at this point and not really living, which results in the death of an actual human being. So I feel like this rule has flaws in situations and was wondering, what do you think?
 

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
It's not very realistic, and it's pretty silly in the more self serious interpretations of the character that try to highlight him as not a paragon of good.
It works in the DCAU and with Adam West, though. It's been a while since I've read the comics, so I'm mostly talking about on screen stuff.


Makes way more sense for Superman.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,421
It's dumb because he cripples and maims people, gives them concussions and other damage that they can't recover from. It's silly.
 

Valdfellgar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
Massachusetts
When the joker breaks out of Arkham for the, say, 5th time, only to destroy more lives, maaaaybe it's time to consider breaking the rule on occasion.
 

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
If I was Batman and didn't want to kill I'd just bash bad guys' kneecaps with a bat. Cripple them so that they'll be easier to catch when they escape from prison.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,607
Batman at his best wants to stop violent encounters but also rehabilitate criminals as well, not hunt and murder them.

The classic 90s cartoon is probably one of the best depictions of the character ever for that reason.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,940
I'm torn on it. A big part of Batman's charm is his Rogues gallery. If he just killed his enemies it would be worse, and we would have to deal with all the Ra's and Grundy style resurrections. However, after No Mans Land the Joker should have been long dead. The fact that he has killed entire buildings of people just makes the no kill rule laughable.

I think there needs to be more of a balance. A focus on Batman/Bruce trying to rehabilitate criminals, or knowing that there is a good person inside them like Dent and Nigma. Things like Riddler becoming a detective was such a cool idea, or when Dent became a good guy after Hush for a while. Situations like those help justify why Batman shouldn't just kill all his enemies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,336
It gave us the BEST Batman movie ever.
source.gif
 

ReiGun

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,723
It's not Batman's responsibility to kill his villains. Especially considering he's already technically operating outside the law.

That the Joker hasn't just been put on Death Row is at the fault of the Gotham City criminal justice system. Hell, Joker might be the one instance where police brutality is totally justified and yet no cop in Gotham has the balls to just put two in the back of his head and dump him in the river.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Just one of the many fundamental reasons why Batman is a shitty character who the DCU would be better off if he was gone.

Why kill the bad guys if they're going to come back to life?

Okay now explain Batman median that isn't the comics where the villains doesn't come back to life.
 

Soj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,864
It defines the character and it's one of the things that makes him most interesting.

If someone doesn't like it, I'm not sure why they'd even consider themselves a Batman fan.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Just one of the many fundamental reasons why Batman is a shitty character who the DCU would be better off if he was gone.



Okay now explain Batman median that isn't the comics where the villains doesn't come back to life.

I mean most don't really escape prison so there's no reason for Batman that killed him because they're in jail.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,717
MĂ©xico
Turning Batman into the Punisher is just boring.

Killing does not make the character or stories more realistic. I mean it is a guy dressed as a bat who is also the world's greatest detective.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,021
A range of different interpretations of the character which also happen to be the ones that reached the most audiences have played a little loose with this "rule" - I don't see it a problem that most people wouldn't know he has it.

Yes I feel it's integral to Batman but I'm not averse to a version of Batman that is wildly different to what we've seen before.

You can't do this with too many other superheroes. It's why he has been so enduring.
 

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,912
Not being a friggin' murderer is kind of an important part of what makes Batman Batman as opposed to, say, the Punisher.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,341
I'm not saying he needs to be like the Punisher or anything, more like the MCU I guess
 

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,959
It's dumb as hell in any super hero medium where they're throwing around lethal fighting moves and attacks.

Okay, you have a no kill policy, but you're launching people through floors or setting of explosions right in their face.

One of the things I like about Marvel movies is that they don't even bother with that outside of Spider-man.

They shouldn't be the Punisher, but if someone needs to be taken down, they're going to be taken down.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,872
Greater Vancouver
You can write "no way out" scenarios where he doesn't have much of a choice without just putting a gun in his hand. Heat-of-the-battle shit is going to happen, as much as comics try to pretend it doesn't.

But I atleast wanna believe in a Batman that will try his fucking hardest to avoid it. Because if he is just offing people, Gordon working with him with a bat-signal on the rooftop fucking sucks, and he just leans closer to being the Punisher, but also a billionaire (which sucks in its own ways).

I want a Batman that is informed by his damage and wants to believe Gotham can stand up, vs. just being consumed by it and just gets away with killing who he thinks isn't worth it.

There was an issue of Injustice where, in a vision of an idealized alternate scenario, Bruce killed the Joker instead of Superman, before Joker triggered the event that would have killed Lois and destroyed Metropolis. He knew what would have happened if he let the Joker go through with it, so he stopped it himself. He then turned himself in, served his time, and was judged. This was all just a dream of "a better world" than what ends up happening in that comic, but it atleast displayed a Batman that was willing to be held accountable by a system he wants to prove can work.

I would love that if Batman ended up straight up killing someone extrajudicially, he would turn himself in. But really, DC wouldn't allow that.

Atleast the Dark Knight ends on an interesting notion of letting Batman be labeled a pariah, and be blamed as a fault of the system. DKR follows it up in ways that both succeed and fail, but there is atleast a notion that Batman's existence is diametrically opposed to a system that works.
 

Green Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,340
Well, considering the Joker caused
the nuclear destruction of Metropolis, which a quick Google search says has a population of 11 million
I'd say it's about time Batman put a bit more thought into his morals.

Not saying Batman needs to go around putting bullets in the heads of every criminal he sees, but come on.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,717
MĂ©xico
What's the origin of this principle?

Immediately following Batman #1, DC Editor Whitney Ellsworth spoke to Bob Kane and Bill Finger. From now on, Batman would be against killing, a rule Superman's creators had already applied to their own creation. Ellsworth added, "Never let us have Batman carry a gun again."

Ellsworth wanted Batman to rise above his pulp vigilante roots and become a genuine superhero, someone who seemed at home in a world also inhabited by Superman and the rising number of similarly colorful champions. By this time, Finger and Kane had introduced young Dick Grayson as Batman's new apprentice, a cheerful, acrobatic detective who provided some tonal contrast. Ellsworth liked Robin, and he thought it bad form to paint Batman as a role model to the boy and young readers if he resorted to killing when convenient rather than using his great mind, incredible technology, and formidable training to find better solutions.

Less than a year after his debut, and only five months after he first started using a gun at all, Batman now had a rule against lethal force. The proto-Batman was fully crystalizing into the kind of character Finger felt Bruce Wayne was meant to be. In Batman #4, the Dark Knight openly acknowledges this rule to Robin. "Remember, we never kill with weapons of any kind!"

So it's been part of the character since 1940.
 

Modest_Modsoul

Living the Dreams
Member
Oct 29, 2017
24,529
I'm neutral about it.

I love it in Batman v Superman he's on killing rampage because it's fresh to look at + say what you want about Zack Snyder, but the action scenes are amazing.


 

Dogo Mojo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,191
One of the things I've always loved about DC is their commitment to this idea behind most of their characters that they would rather incapacitate and rehabilitate their villains. One of my favourite episodes of any DC animated series is an episode that involves Batman and Orion from the new gods following around the Flash for a day and there is a scene where Flash goes to a bar and talks to his villains.

It makes even more sense with a character like Batman because overall his rogues gallery is filled with regular people who have no superpowers and are mentally broken individuals and it could be argued for most of them that they only exist because of Batman in the first place.

would you really want a Vigilante going around murdering people who have serious mental trauma? It sucks that he has to beat them down to stop them before they hurt themselves or others, but the alternative would be a Batman who wouldn't be dissimilar to many modern day police officers who'd rather shoot first and ask questions later if at all.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
It's stupid only because the writers make it so. They want Batman to have a moral code but they also want irredeemable villains who return forever and are never rehabilitated. If Batman was a long running constant story I'd expect him to succeed at redeeming someone from time to time and in a battle of attrition actually be making progress at reclaiming Gotham from crime. But because he's on a comic treadmill, he will fight the comic equivalent of Bin Laden/Dahmer/BTK/Manson who will be captured and immediately kill dozens a month later, thus rendering his no kill policy and Gotham justice system a complete joke.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,260
It defines batman. What is he without it? Just the Punisher but with better gadgets and an even MORE emo personality.

Though I would like some consistency on whether the no kill rule extends to sapient aliens/non-humans or not, since that seems to change with every author or storyline.
 

Serif

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,998
The longevity of the Batman franchise means that villains constantly escaping, escalating their crimes to ridiculous proportions, and being resurrected makes the no-kill rule seem ridiculous, even though I think it's fine and reasonable in the context of him already being a billionaire vigilante whose purpose is rehabilitation. In a more 'realistic' take - as realistic as one could get - the worst members of his rogues gallery would be on death row or receive life sentences, while others like Dent, Ivy, Kyle, Nigma, etc. could be reformed.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
55,066
It's sort of dumb once you stop suspending disbelief and buying into it as part of some "code", but so does a lot of stuff around Batman. If you are going to beat the shit out of people without any semblance of any actual due process, you might as well take that next step and kill the Joker
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,130
It's stupid. Batman is almost entirely responsible for the existence of supervillains (for example that particular story thread in the Dark Knight, where he has outmuscled then regular criminals, so they now turn to criminals that can actually fight back against Batman). So when he captures such a criminal that has killed dozens of people, and then that criminal escapes prison (like they always do), every person they kill afterwards is on Batman. Also, some of the low level criminals are for sure getting brain damage and permanent disfiguring from his attacks. So leaving them comatose is somehow noble?
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,429
The villains are written in such a way that rehabilitation is unimaginable. It's boring when you know they'll simply escape and wreck Gotham again. I think it's a flaw in the writing of Batman that drives us down an alley of logic where all we are left with to truly stop a villain is to kill them.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,260
It's sort of dumb once you stop suspending disbelief and buying into it as part of some "code", but so does a lot of stuff around Batman. If you are going to beat the shit out of people without any semblance of any actual due process, you might as well take that next step and kill the Joker

As with many comic issues, Robot Chicken handled this dilemma nicely.

 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,299
It's kinda dumb because you have to use a lot of suspension of disbelief that he's not murdering random baddies left and right. The "no killing" rule seems to only apply to named villains only.

Wonder if they ever done one of those things where a doctor watches every action set piece of a Batman movie and describes the actual expected injuries and how horribly fatal they all are?
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,423
New York City
It's one of his weaknesses thus integral to the character. Id find himi incredibly boring without it. Some of the best bits is when he struggles with his moral compass.
 

Ocean Bones

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,759
What's it matter one way or another? Every villain breaks out of the grave as easy as the joker breaks out of jail. Comic books dude.