OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
To be fair, it's not like most of the industry is developing their games around subscriptions right now. In fact, even if they were, the games releasing on Gamepass now were already released/in-development years ago. So of course there is going to be little evidence for skeptics, the industry isn't centered around subscriptions yet. Right now most third party developers just used Gamepass as a nice bonus because of Microsoft's pay offs to get games on the service.

It's also not uncommon that first party games get better/less egregious treatment than third party games in terms of consumer value. That's actually the case in most cases, because they want to sell boxes/services. Microsoft has had micro-transactions in their games for a long time, just because nothing has changed doesn't mean it can't possibly change.

Why would reducing quality of the products increase adoption? Keep in mind, the core aspect of a subscription is growing the subscriber base....with a lot of help from world of mouth and customer retention. These aren't binding contracts with cancellation fees like Comcast.

Also 3rd party devs still are free to sell on other platforms. The lump sum for Game Pass most likely will not cover development. It's just one additional low risk revenue stream. I read from a dev in the Phoenix Point forum that the only stipulation they got from Microsoft is that their game launches on Game Pass day 1. He also said that Microsoft was looking for diversity of quality Indies for Game Pass. Outside of that, free to do whatever.

I think what we see now will only improve when the subscription base grows and when there's more competition. Nobody is going to tell their friends they need to pay a monthly fee for shitty quality or shitty monetization.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
We're also going to have streaming on top of this that'll make the biggest releases designed to compensate for lag and touchscreen controls. But don't worry. You'll have better graphics and bigger marketing/hype/fomo than ever.
 
Sep 14, 2019
623
Why would reducing quality of the products increase adoption? Keep in mind, the core aspect of a subscription is growing the subscriber base....with a lot of help from world of mouth and customer retention. These aren't binding contracts with cancellation fees like Comcast.

Also 3rd party devs still are free to sell on other platforms. The lump sum for Game Pass most likely will not cover development. It's just one additional low risk revenue stream. I read from a dev in the Phoenix Point forum that the only stipulation they got from Microsoft is that their game launches on Game Pass day 1. He also said that Microsoft was looking for diversity of quality Indies for Game Pass. Outside of that, free to do whatever.

I think what we see now will only improve when the subscription base grows and when there's more competition. Nobody is going to tell their friends they need to pay a monthly fee for shitty quality or shitty monetization.
I think you are a bit confused at what I'm getting at. I agree with your comment, because what you just said is literally what I said in my own comment :P including the fact that 1st party offerings are almost always a better value then third parties whether that's for selling boxes or services, because they're about selling attachment to ecosystems. I also said that third party publishers mostly see Gamepass as an additional source of one-off payment revenue, not the main source of income.

...which, is exactly my point. For skeptics, the current model of Gamepass is not indicative of whether or not microtransactions will increase because the industry hasn't really adopted a subscription model overall. Once most of the industry does that and the consumer base almost completely adopts a subscription model, we'll probably see even more egregious monetization models because there will be less initial income from a game's userbase since there will be little/no sales.

But that's so long term that there is really no evidence for it. That's what I'm saying. It's hard for people either way to provide evidence because the industry doesn't revolve around Gamepass-like services yet.

But of course, the industry was going to go this direction with or without Gamepass. So Gamepass is just the leader for now. Personally, I'm more of an optimist about Gamepass.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
What does your first sentence actually mean?

I could break it up into little chunks.

1. Game streaming will make accessible AAA games too much wider audiences.

2. Because they can play on their phone with touch screen controls and over Wi-Fi so they don't have to buy a console.

3. And the design of the largest games targeting the biggest audiences will adapt to accommodate this play on phones so as to go where the money is.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,351
I could break it up into little chunks.

1. Game streaming will make accessible AAA games too much wider audiences.

2. Because they can play on their phone with touch screen controls and over Wi-Fi so they don't have to buy a console.

3. And the design of the largest games targeting the biggest audiences will adapt to accommodate this play on phones so as to go where the money is.

Ooohhh...I wonder if this will be the knock against xcloud. It's as ridiculous as the gamepass excuses.
 

BIG J

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,313
I could break it up into little chunks.

1. Game streaming will make accessible AAA games too much wider audiences.

2. Because they can play on their phone with touch screen controls and over Wi-Fi so they don't have to buy a console.

3. And the design of the largest games targeting the biggest audiences will adapt to accommodate this play on phones so as to go where the money is.
thats a huge reach...
 

IDreamOfHime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,568
They've fired the starting pistol on another race to the bottom.They're devaluing entire libraries and catalogs of games.
I have little sympathy for big pubs, but this will hurt devs which I do care about.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I think you are a bit confused at what I'm getting at. I agree with your comment, because what you just said is literally what I said in my own comment :P including the fact that 1st party offerings are almost always a better value then third parties whether that's for selling boxes or services, because they're about selling attachment to ecosystems. I also said that third party publishers mostly see Gamepass as an additional source of one-off payment revenue, not the main source of income.

...which, is exactly my point. For skeptics, the current model of Gamepass is not indicative of whether or not microtransactions will increase because the industry hasn't really adopted a subscription model overall. Once most of the industry does that and the consumer base almost completely adopts a subscription model, we'll probably see even more egregious monetization models because there will be less initial income from a game's userbase since there will be little/no sales.

But that's so long term that there is really no evidence for it. That's what I'm saying. It's hard for people either way to provide evidence because the industry doesn't revolve around Gamepass-like services yet.

But of course, the industry was going to go this direction with or without Gamepass. So Gamepass is just the leader for now. Personally, I'm more of an optimist about Gamepass.

I see what you're getting at. I also need to clarify my point:
- Subscription models will only have room for a fraction of the developers.
- Traditional model isn't replaced for the rest. Just as people are willing to spend money on cosmetics in free games, they'll spend money on purchases even though they have subscriptions. The numbers have proven that so far.
- Platform holders don't have creative control but they do still have the ability to target devs that make their platform more desirable
- GAAS games are limiting. The upside from a hit is tremendous however they are also most likely to fail. That's why most Indies are single player. That's not going to change. There's a lot more room for single player than multiplayer in a subscription model. Multiplayer games are more likely to cannibalize each other due to the much higher long term engagement. Where as a consumer can put 2000 hours into Halo 5 like I did, could spread that time out over 50+ single player games. The idea is that Microsoft's benefits from more GAAS games in their subscription is counter intuitive based on numbers and logic. Who cares what 10 games come out next month if I'm only going to keep playing the same 1 or 2 I'm playing now?
- One of the reasons subscription models are popping up is because the gaming industry is about to explode with opportunity when 5G goes mainstream. Projections are there will be more sales in 5 years, not less. Subscriptions aren't the horse leading the change. They're the cart resulting from 5G and cloud opportunities that will explode the industry.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,666
Again with this bullshit? Gears 5 has a 15-20 hours single player campaign, The Outer Worlds is a single player game, Ori and the will of the wisps is a single player game. Wasteland 3, Outer Wilds, Ashen, etc... all single player games.

I don't give two shits what MS is doing RIGHT now when the Service is fresh and needs to be marketed. If the focus is solely on GP games like these aren't profitable. It's a fact and if you don't close your eyes you cant see them. Games like Outer Worlds will not cease to exist, but they will be filled with Microstransaction and DLCs to get the Player hooked.
I spend 60€ on GOW and could 100% it without having to spend another Euro.

Lol. you completely missed the point of this kind of subscription

Enlighten me then, let's see?

How come? Phil Spencer has stated that Game Pass is good for exactly the opposite of what you're thinking.

Ok hypothetically. Let's say MS focuses on SP games like GOW and SM. Games that are finished within 2-3 weeks. So you have 1 month of playtime.
You know how Netflix gets his userbase to stay on the service? By getting series out every fuckin month. It's about the time it'l take you to watch it.
Now tell me HOW, HOW MS is going to release a Game every fuckin month. They cant. It's impossible. So instead, it's much easier to release a game, which will make the user stay for 2-3 months. Online, DLCs etc.

Gamepass is not Netflix.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
You know how Netflix gets his userbase to stay on the service? By getting series out every fuckin month. It's about the time it'l take you to watch it.
Now tell me HOW, HOW MS is going to release a Game every fuckin month. They cant. It's impossible. So instead, it's much easier to release a game, which will make the user stay for 2-3 months. Online, DLCs etc.

Gamepass is not Netflix.


Whatever gave you the idea that Gamepass has only first party games on it? Most of the games that go on the service every month are 3rd parties.

not a single person has ever said MS Would release a game every month. MS doesn't need to release a game every month just to keep people playing.

Perhaps more time spent studying the product is in order?
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,666
Whatever gave you the idea that Gamepass has only first party games on it? Most of the games that go on the service every month are 3rd parties.

not a single person has ever said MS Would release a game every month. MS doesn't need to release a game every month just to keep people playing.

Perhaps more time spent studying the product is in order?

???
Why do you think people sub to Netflix and not to Amazon Prime? It's sure as hell not the better Web Player.
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
I don't give two shits what MS is doing RIGHT now when the Service is fresh and needs to be marketed. If the focus is solely on GP games like these aren't profitable. It's a fact and if you don't close your eyes you cant see them. Games like Outer Worlds will not cease to exist, but they will be filled with Microstransaction and DLCs to get the Player hooked.
I spend 60€ on GOW and could 100% it without having to spend another Euro.



Enlighten me then, let's see?



Ok hypothetically. Let's say MS focuses on SP games like GOW and SM. Games that are finished within 2-3 weeks. So you have 1 month of playtime.
You know how Netflix gets his userbase to stay on the service? By getting series out every fuckin month. It's about the time it'l take you to watch it.
Now tell me HOW, HOW MS is going to release a Game every fuckin month. They cant. It's impossible. So instead, it's much easier to release a game, which will make the user stay for 2-3 months. Online, DLCs etc.

Gamepass is not Netflix.
Lol they are already realising games every fucking month. You do realise not only esclusive are on the platform, right?

You are very confused. There are single player games added every moth and singleplayer games coming d1 on the platform as we speak.

Next gen it will be even more games every month when the subscription is fully launched.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,666
Lol they are already realising games every fucking month. You do realise not only esclusive are on the platform, right?

You are very confused. There are single player games added every moth and singleplayer games coming d1 on the platform as we speak.

Next gen it will be even more games every month when the subscription is fully launched.

Again, also for you.
3rd party is not what will get people to subscribe to your service. MS has kind of an Monopol right now, but this will change next Gen.
First Party is far more important.

People subscribe to Netflix to see Stranger things, Black Mirror etc.

And pls for the Love of God. Stop comparing the current state of GP whit what will be as soon as the service will not be subsided by MS anymore. Or do you also think that MS will go on and sell subscriptions at 1$ for ever?
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
Again, also for you.
3rd party is not what will get people to subscribe to your service. MS has kind of an Monopol right now, but this will change next Gen.
First Party is far more important.

People subscribe to Netflix to see Stranger things, Black Mirror etc.

And pls for the Love of God. Stop comparing the current state of GP whit what will be as soon as the service will not be subsided by MS anymore. Or do you also think that MS will go on and sell subscriptions at 1$ for ever?
Lol, why does only first party count in your mind? People have a choice, but a game for 60 bucks or keep the subscription. There is no competitor and there will not be one for some time. Netflix didn't launch original content monthly for years, it's something recent.

You are very confused indeed. You talk about this subscription like if there where other 2 of them
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
???
Why do you think people sub to Netflix and not to Amazon Prime? It's sure as hell not the better Web Player.
Yeah, they will need exclusive stuff every month or two if the GAAS stuff don't hook people. A lot of the Game Pass stuff that are 3rd party has been out else where for a long while already, and it might continue to be the case. Games that have been out for a while are also lower in price.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,666
Lol, why does only first party count in your mind? People have a choice, but a game for 60 bucks or keep the subscription. There is no competitor and there will not be one for some time. Netflix didn't launch original content monthly for years, it's something recent.

You are very confused indeed. You talk about this subscription like if there where other 2 of them

Because the competition has them too lol??

Also the way you write is arrogant as fuck.
 

XVerdena

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,923
I don't give two shits what MS is doing RIGHT now when the Service is fresh and needs to be marketed. If the focus is solely on GP games like these aren't profitable. It's a fact and if you don't close your eyes you cant see them. Games like Outer Worlds will not cease to exist, but they will be filled with Microstransaction and DLCs to get the Player hooked.
I spend 60€ on GOW and could 100% it without having to spend another Euro.



Enlighten me then, let's see?



Ok hypothetically. Let's say MS focuses on SP games like GOW and SM. Games that are finished within 2-3 weeks. So you have 1 month of playtime.
You know how Netflix gets his userbase to stay on the service? By getting series out every fuckin month. It's about the time it'l take you to watch it.
Now tell me HOW, HOW MS is going to release a Game every fuckin month. They cant. It's impossible. So instead, it's much easier to release a game, which will make the user stay for 2-3 months. Online, DLCs etc.

Gamepass is not Netflix.
It is alteady happening bruh

June: Outer Wilds and Void Bastards
August: Blair Witch
September: Gears 5 and Creature in the Well
October: The Outer Worlds and Afterparty
Early 2020: Ori 2, Wasteland 3, Bleeding Edge, Minecraft Dungeons

And these are just in terms of new releases and know quantity, there are definitely going to be more new games at day one on Game Pass.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,666
It is alteady happening bruh

June: Outer Wilds and Void Bastards
August: Blair Witch
September: Gears 5 and Creature in the Well
October: The Outer Worlds and Afterparty
Early 2020: Ori 2, Wasteland 3, Bleeding Edge, Minecraft Dungeons

And these are just in terms of new releases and know quantity, there are definitely going to be more new games at day one on Game Pass.

I don't see how afterparty, Blair Witch etc. are an contra argument to my "Games like God War will cease to exist".
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,466
Melbourne, Australia
I worry a bit that games are going to become even more reliant on MTX. A big part of Gears' strategy is focusing on its MTX sales and currency purchases (it might be this way even if Gamepass didn't exist, though, MS have been trying to figure out what works best on the MTX front with Halo, Gears and Forza for a while now). Gamepass is really cool and has gone a long way to reviving the Xbone for me (a system I'd regularly go 12 months without touching before this year) but I do worry that if subscriptions are the future big single player games where MTX are essentially absent will become even rarer.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,666
For the price of buying Outer Worlds from the competition, you can get an entire year of Game Pass that includes Outer Worlds. It's the total package that matters. Not the exclusives.

If you guys think, that MS will be the only one with a service like GP in the future I don't know what to tell you.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
If you guys think, that MS will be the only one with a service like GP in the future I don't know what to tell you.

Who said that? It's not the point. It'll be great if other platforms stepped up to offer really good content for a low monthly fee.

I have a Pro and will upgrade to PS5 day 1. This isn't console wars bro. Just talking about subscriptions in general.
 
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XVerdena

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,923
I don't see how afterparty, Blair Witch etc. are an contra argument to my "Games like God War will cease to exist".
I was responding to the "how is ms going to release a new game every month? It's impossible" statement. Well, it is already happening, so...

Of course not every game will be a huge AAA, there will be a mix beetwen AA and AAA, you will get your god of war-like game, don't worry. Next Halo or Fable will be AAA, whatever The Initiative is going to do will be AAA etc...
 

Raider34

Banned
May 8, 2018
1,277
United States
I don't think Microsoft goes all the way in on gamepass until next generation right now I think we are just being used as case studies to get data on us to see our habits the games we have historically played versus the new genre and games we try and enjoy in gamepass.

I think the anti Microsoft Ps now is the same as gamepass crowd are a little discouraged that Sony doesn't offer the same right now so they use the excuse of the games are some how not as good or devalued because you can play them all for 10-15 dollars a month.

Lets keep it 100 for a second if there are 100 million playstations out there and the most copies sold of a game is 13.5 million that means there are a lot of people using Redbox or A GameFly like service to play these games and the developers aren't making a dollar off the games that are Redboxed or GameFly'd or second hand from GameStop/Best Buy/EBay.

it's very disingenuous the argument a lot of people on here have when they know second hand is how the majority of casuals and kids get their games most people aren't paying the 60 dollars so why not have a subscription service where the devs and publishers can make more money off their work in the long run.

People who are subbed to subscriptions services tend to buy a little more dlc since they feel they already are getting lots of good content for a bargain so why not purchase a expansion or some cosmetics and will more than likely end up purchasing the game outright when it goes on sale in the long run so you can always have it in your Library and take forward to next console generation.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,200
I don't think Microsoft goes all the way in on gamepass until next generation right now I think we are just being used as case studies to get data on us to see our habits the games we have historically played versus the new genre and games we try and enjoy in gamepass.

I think the anti Microsoft Ps now is the same as gamepass crowd are a little discouraged that Sony doesn't offer the same right now so they use the excuse of the games are some how not as good or devalued because you can play them all for 10-15 dollars a month.

Lets keep it 100 for a second if there are 100 million playstations out there and the most copies sold of a game is 13.5 million that means there are a lot of people using Redbox or A GameFly like service to play these games and the developers aren't making a dollar off the games that are Redboxed or GameFly'd or second hand from GameStop/Best Buy/EBay.

it's very disingenuous the argument a lot of people on here have when they know second hand is how the majority of casuals and kids get their games most people aren't paying the 60 dollars so why not have a subscription service where the devs and publishers can make more money off their work in the long run.

People who are subbed to subscriptions services tend to buy a little more dlc since they feel they already are getting lots of good content for a bargain so why not purchase a expansion or some cosmetics and will more than likely end up purchasing the game outright when it goes on sale in the long run so you can always have it in your Library and take forward to next console generation.

I would have thought that one of the higher unit sales would be discounted digital sales. Say after 6 months or so. 2nd hand are the same copies being recycled.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
My immediate fear is that the rise of subscription services is going to drastically shape the way games are developed i.e. a stronger focus on long term retention and large amounts of "content". Many modern games already feel very bloated to me and I'd hate for more AAA games to become live service games.
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
My immediate fear is that the rise of subscription services is going to drastically shape the way games are developed i.e. a stronger focus on long term retention and large amounts of "content". Many modern games already feel very bloated to me and I'd hate for more AAA games to become live service games.
This makes sense only if the sub service provider expects people to subscribe for one specific game only and nothing else, eg. say you'd subscribe to U+ for Assassin's Creed and nothing else, then it'd be a good idea to make the player invested in the game for more than one month before (s)he cancels the subscription.
Conversely, if the sub service's line-up is already deep and rich, new additions to the library don't need to have artificial padding in order for the subscribers to have enough to play until the end of the month. Most XGP subscribers tend to say "where do I find the time to play all these games" and not "I'll play through Game X and I cancel my sub".
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
This makes sense only if the sub service provider expects people to subscribe for one specific game only and nothing else, eg. say you'd subscribe to U+ for Assassin's Creed and nothing else, then it'd be a good idea to make the player invested in the game for more than one month before (s)he cancels the subscription.
Conversely, if the sub service's line-up is already deep and rich, new additions to the library don't need to have artificial padding in order for the subscribers to have enough to play until the end of the month. Most XGP subscribers tend to say "where do I find the time to play all these games" and not "I'll play through Game X and I cancel my sub".

It depends on how the content creators are compensated. I hear that Microsoft is pretty good in this regard (paying upfront afaik) but others seem to adopt a playtime based payment model. Which would definitely entice developers to pad out playtime.
 

thecaseace

Member
May 1, 2018
3,227
People seem to think that retention can only be gained through a single type of game becoming popular.

Turns out variety and novelty keep people hooked too.

People will subscribe as long as they perceive value in the service.

Also some forget the service isn't just first party online games DMC5 is on there, six months after its release
 

shuno

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
625
It's great. It offers a remarkable value. At the moment Nintendo and Sony are far behind going by what they offer. It will be interesting to see how this turn out.