I don't get the concept of cultural appropriation

[Deleted member 8117]

As an Arab dude who lived all of his life in Arab countries, of course.

I'm guessing I'm just missing something or just outright ignorant, but outside of blatantly offensive examples like this one wiki cites, I don't get why - for example - would people be angry at a white girl wearing a Chinese style dress to her prom.

In my uni a few years ago, we had a white American lecturer who wore a traditional Arab Thawb for the national day, and we all thought it was cool af and a nice gesture of him. I - and I know I only talk for my experience - always feel this way when I see a foreigner do a traditional Arab thing. It's just feel good to see other people enjoy and appreciate my culture is all I'm saying.

So yeah I don't really get the concept. Could anyone explain it to me?

 

[BLEEN]

I'm with you, mostly. I feel people can be a bit too sensitive nowadays.

I guess somethings can be too on-the-nose and there's a fine line between respecting the culture and not. Def. depends from person to person.

 

[torontoml]

I believe the main concern are those that do it with racist undertones. Though I find there are some people who take the defense too far and apply it to everyone.

 

[Prolepro]

 

[FF Seraphim]

I am there with you op. Unless it is outright racist, I do not understand the offense. My mom is Indian and she is absolutely delighted when people try on Indian garb and try to make Indian food.
Maybe its a more Western thing.

 

[Jpop]

So,

Mostly there are a few things about it -

-Mostly when you see cultural appropriation it is between to closely tied races, one of which has a noticeable edge over the other.
-You can see this between natives vs colonizers ect..
-You can also see this when a dominant race feels threatened. I.E. look back at early U.S. days with Irish versus English or even look at Europe and that relationship.

In sum a lot of it has to do with an inferiority complex, thinking you are better but realizing that everything points differently.

Cultural appropriation co-exists with racism. Without racism you do not have cultural appropriation, in our times people are much more keen on racism and such you see a lot of people claiming cultural appropriation.

 

[SpaceRipperStingyEyes]

Cultures are ever evolving. Their is no pure culture. The originals are long gone what everyone has now is a mutation. People outside your culture WILL change it and WILL claim it for their own with no acknowledgement of the "originators". Suck it up anyone who can't handle this, something that ironically seems to unite everyone.

 

[Sinfamy]

Most of it is McOutrage, unless you're exploiting and profiting off the people.

 

[Laughing Banana]

As an Arab dude who lived all of his life in Arab countries, of course.

I'm guessing I'm just missing something or just outright ignorant, but outside of blatantly offensive examples like this one wiki cites, I don't get why - for example - would people be angry at a white girl wearing a Chinese style dress to her prom.

In my uni a few years ago, we had a white American lecturer who wore a traditional Arab Thawb for the national day, and we all thought it was cool af and a nice gesture of him. I - and I know I only talk for my experience - always feel this way when I see a foreigner do a traditional Arab thing. It's just feel good to see other people enjoy and appreciate my culture is all I'm saying.

So yeah I don't really get the concept. Could anyone explain it to me?

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That prom girl is a stupid thing, and that lecturer is just a cool thing, not at all cultural appropriation. It's a simple concept, really, wouldn't you be pissed if a culture that's originated from Arab countries are being claimed by, say, the Americans as being created by them? That is cultural appropriation, imo.

 

[Deleted member 1248]

People don't enjoy culture. They enjoy the things people make while not actually giving a shit about the people who make them.

 

[Artdayne]

The more egregious examples are like Elvis Presley or something. Though even in that case I certainly don't think many would argue there's something wrong with Elvis Presley playing rock and roll music, it's just that the black artists who were at the forefront of that weren't getting the same recognition.

 

[Deleted member 8117]

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Oh! Big fan of ContraPoints here. Didn't know she made a video on the subject. Gonna check it out, thanks!

I am there with you op. Unless it is outright racist, I do not understand the offense. My mom is Indian and she is absolutely delighted when people try on Indian garb and try to make Indian food.
Maybe its a more Western thing.

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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking right now. Maybe living in the more racially and culturally diverse societies the west is gives a context that we're lacking.

 

[ItsBobbyDarin]

I am Egyptian, and my brother in law who is danish wanted a galabeya, so we got him some. The people who want their culture separately and for themselves are idiots. And there is nothing wrong with someone dressing up as an Arab, putting on a thawb or galabeya, for the sake of parody.

The people who gets the most triggered by scenarios like these are ironically enough not part of that mentioned culture.

 

[TaterTots]

People can have different opinions about shit. That's all it really is. Some get offended, some do not.

 

[Doggg]

When people have a legitimate grievance, it's often when they take something that's considered very solemn , sacred, or otherwise important in another culture and treat it in a frivolous way -- like, I dunno, taking the headdress of a tribal elder of a native American tribe and treating it like it's just some sort of funny hat.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

The more egregious examples are like Elvis Presley or something. Though even in that case I certainly don't think many would argue there's something wrong with Elvis Presley playing rock and roll music, it's just that the black artists who were at the forefront of that weren't getting the same recognition.

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Elvis never pretended he was the innovator though.

 

[SonicDaHedgehog]

It's a real thing, but like someone mentioned earlier the McOutrage movement has watered it down so much that now it's almost lost it's meaning.

 

[Deleted member 8117]

That prom girl is a stupid thing, and that lecturer is just a cool thing, not at all cultural appropriation. It's a simple concept, really, wouldn't you be pissed if a culture that's originated from Arab countries are being claimed by, say, the Americans as being created by them? That is cultural appropriation, imo.

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What is the difference between the prom girl and the lecturer cases? They all wear something they thought is cool and belongs to a culture other than theirs. I mentioned the prom girl incident because I remember feeling bad for all the bullying she got online and not understanding the reason why it happened. That's why I wanted someone to explain it to me.

One more relevant example that I remembered is this dude:
https://twitter.com/takatoriya

He's a Japanese dude who lives in the ME and his whole thing is wearing Arab cloth and trying our traditions. He's a low-key twitter celebrity here and no one is seemingly taking offense with him. Most of us just think he's cool and fun af.

People don't enjoy culture. They enjoy the things people make while not actually giving a shit about the people who make them.

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You don't know that. It's an assumption. I for one ADORE Japanese culture and would love to try their traditions and traditional clothes when I eventually travel to Japan. And even if your assumption is right for some people, intentions don't really matter while discussing whether an action is right or wrong, imo.

When people have a legitimate grievance, it's often when they take something that's considered very solemn , sacred, or otherwise important in another culture and treat it in a frivolous way -- like, I dunno, taking the headdress of a tribal elder of a native American tribe and treating it like it's just some sort of funny hat.

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Yup. That was the example I cited in the OP. Thing's like that are objectively, obviously, WRONG. What I'm interested in are the much less extreme examples of individuals adapting/trying things from other cultures.

 

[Laughing Banana]

What is the difference between the prom girl and the lecturer cases? They all wear something they thought is cool and belongs to a culture other than theirs. I mentioned the prom girl incident because I remember feeling bad for all the bullying she got online and not understanding the reason why it happened. That's why I wanted someone to explain it to me.

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You misunderstood me; what I meant by that prom girl is a stupid thing is that it's stupid that people are making a big deal out of it, it's really a nothingburger at all.

 

[Deleted member 8117]

You misunderstood me; what I meant by that prom girl is a stupid thing is that it's stupid that people are making a big deal out of it, it's really a nothingburger at all.

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Ah, my bad. Totally agree with you.

 

[Artdayne]

Elvis never pretended he was the innovator though.

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Right, and that was my point about people not being upset with Elvis persay but more so the music industry and white America that basically ignored black artists that were creating similar music. It's much the same with the British invasion as well, all of those bands were heavily influenced by Blues artists in America that were not popular yet a lot of those British bands became filthy rich.

 

[Haze]

Ponder this:

Fortnite dances have cultural roots and they've basically had those roots eroded in the scope of the wider societal lens. The BlocBoy JB Shoot dance is't his dance anymore. It's "The Hype". The connection to its culture and its creators is lost.

It's also about not making a mockery or trivializing things that are revered or sacred. When white women wear bindis to music fests they aren't respecting the culture, they're insulting it. They're turning something that has meaning to a group of people into a fashion statement, an accessory.

 

[JustinP]

.

 

[Deleted member 11637]

The issue with "cultural appropriation" is a white establishment that loves to steal the unique cultural expressions and contributions of minority communities while at the same time resisting the mainstreaming of those same minority artists. It's the "have your cake and eat it too" phenomenon.

It's not a thing in a post imperialist society. Not sure if we're there yet though.

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:/

 

[Cocolina]

It's not a thing in a post imperialist society. Not sure if we're there yet though.

 

[Okabe]

It's a real thing, but like someone mentioned earlier the McOutrage movement has watered it down so much that now it's almost lost it's meaning.

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Sorry but what is the McOutrage ?

 

[BlackRainbowFT]

Sorry but what is the McOutrage ?

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I'm not sure, but since "McMansions" is used to describe mansions that are unsophisticated displays of wealth (http://mcmansionhell.com), I think it means "an overblown, artificial, gratuitous outrage"... Probably.

 

[molnizzle]

The issue with "cultural appropriation" is a white establishment that loves to steal the unique cultural expressions and contributions of minority communities while at the same time resisting the mainstreaming of those same minority artists. It's the "have your cake and eat it too" phenomenon.

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So it's a racism thing, not a specific cultural thing? Because I've never really understood appropriation either. I always thought the entire point of U.S. culture was for it to mix and match from a huge variety of different backgrounds.

 

[Haze]

So it's a racism thing, not a cultural appropriation thing? Because I've never really understood appropriation. I always thought the entire point of U.S. culture was for it to mix and match from a huge variety of different backgrounds.

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You're looking at it at face value without seeing the implications that happens when the dominant culture "borrows" or steals from smaller groups. Yes, there are racial dynamics to it a lot, but not always. It can be ethnic, religious, etc.

 

[molnizzle]

You're looking at it at face value without seeing the implications that happens when the dominant culture "borrows" or steals from smaller groups. Yes, there are racial dynamics to it a lot, but not always. It can be ethnic, religious, etc.

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Well to reply to the example you brought up earlier, I wouldn't even know who BlocBoy JB was if not for Fortnite. So it's true that his dance is now "Hype," I imagine it brought him a huge amount of exposure as well. More than he would've had without Fortnite, at least. I guess I don't see how that is bad. I also don't see how a video game like Fortnite has a race or culture of its own that it should have to stick to. I was more thinking of individuals though.

 

[nekkid]

I thought it was odd when people called it "cultural appropriation" when Gordon Ramsay had a show where he made his own take on different world foods.

Like he should stick to haggis and battered Mars bars or something.

 

[Owarifin]

It's usually some white person getting upset on your behalf.
White people have to control the narrative unfortunately.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

The issue with "cultural appropriation" is a white establishment that loves to steal the unique cultural expressions and contributions of minority communities while at the same time resisting the mainstreaming of those same minority artists. It's the "have your cake and eat it too" phenomenon.

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Cultural appropriation can likely be traced back for thousands of year in which people are not being credited for their works or ideas in which racial and cultural lines are crossed.
White people might be the focus of it right now.

 

[Glasfrut]

Let's see...I'm gonna try to twist your example in the OP a bit to try and explain one aspect where some people might get offended.

Let's say you lived in a country where people derided you for dressing in your traditional garb. For years you hear how it might not be professional or even "dirty"/"native" whenever you have it on. This is implied directly or subtly with dress codes and other rules here and there.

Then one day, another race starts wearing it and they talk up how stylish it is or how trend-setting it might be. (Also, the majority has now found a way to make money off of it). No one mentions where it came from, no one wants to talk about how they disparaged it before. In a case like this, would you consider it a nice gesture if you saw someone wearing it? Or would you feel some type of way?

(I don't know if it will happen here - but something that annoys me is people who jump and say "all cultures take/borrow things from each other". No one says that doesn't happen. That's not what people are unhappy about when they talk appropriation).

 

[Haze]

Well to reply to the example you brought up earlier, I wouldn't even know who BlocBoy JB was if not for Fortnight. So it's true that his dance is now "Hype," I imagine it brought him a huge amount of exposure as well. More than he would've had without Fortnight, at least. I guess I don't see how that is bad. I also don't see how a video game like Fortnight has a race or culture of its own that it should have to stick to. I was more thinking of individuals though.

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you're an outlier. The vast majority of people who play Fortnite know his dance as "The Hype" and its cultural origins. This is just one example of something that takes and borrows from other cultures and subcultures and sterilizes them.

 

[massoluk]

 

[Deleted member 34725]

When a white girl in the states has a dreamcatcher hanging from her rear view mirror... oof.

 

[Glasfrut]

you're an outlier. The vast majority of people who play Fortnite know his dance as "The Hype" and its cultural origins. This is just one example of something that takes and borrows from other cultures and subcultures and sterilizes them.

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That, and also look at how many people on Gaming side are resistant to the idea of even acknowledging where the dances come from.

 

[Haze]

That, and also look at how many people on Gaming side are resistant to the idea of even acknowledging where the dances come from.

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Right. I really only use Fortnite as an example all the time because it's the biggest offender at the moment on the largest scale in America, at least.

 

[GJ]

It's also about not making a mockery or trivializing things that are revered or sacred. When white women wear bindis to music fests they aren't respecting the culture, they're insulting it. They're turning something that has meaning to a group of people into a fashion statement, an accessory.

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I'm not going to disagree with you here because I don't, but when is something an insult? In your example those people are clearly wearing it because they love the look, which is a positive thing. For example if I want to paint my whole body green or something because I love it and think it looks great, but other people paint their body green for a religious reason, or because it's something their ancestors used to do, am I really insulting them even though I love how it looks? Can't I do it for my own personal reasons without it being an insult? Again, I'm not trying to be insensitive or something, I'm genuinely curious. I don't see why people can't wear a bindi-like accessory just because they love it, when they don't belong to that group of people. Even in that group someone was the first one to do it and give it that meaning. Why can't other people give it their own?

 

[molnizzle]

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Isn't this... progress, though?

Besides the racist ending to the second pic, which wouldn't actually happen in 2018.

Right. I really only use Fortnite as an example all the time because it's the biggest offender at the moment on the largest scale in America, at least.

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I really don't get this one specifically. Fortnite has dances from basically every culture on the planet, and it's a video game (not an individual) so it can't really have a culture of its own. Like a white girl being disrespectful at a concert is one thing, but Fortnite is a product, not a person.

 

[Tremorah]

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God i love her, her takes on things too

 

[shadowsdarknes]

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I suppose this is true in some places. But people in the United States love eating food from other cultures. And when they attend those restaurants, they usually expect to see staff from those cultures preparing and serving those dishes.

I don't really think I know anyone that actually enjoys food and seeks to enjoy it from some mainstream white chef. Most people I know love the authentic experience.

In the United States, certain foods are more popular than others. Chinese, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Vietnamese, and Japanese influenced dishes seem to be among the most popular.

If someone is eating or trying Filipino cuisine from some white guy it's because:
-They are familiar with the chef's other food and thus feel comfortable trying something new yet possibly familiar. They have bought into his brand.
-They don't know where to get Filipino food nor do they know much about it
-White chef is making the food more palatable to traditional American tastes

The chef in that photo is probably the one who's done something wrong assuming the chef doesn't give credit to how he learned to make such dishes.
But on the end of the consumer, it's not necessarily immoral or malevolent.

I can empathize with the frustration, but it seems inevitable. At least such is the case with food. But in my experience, people actually enjoy authentic food maybe dialed back a bit for a more mainstream pallet.

 

[Haze]

I'm not going to disagree with you here because I don't, but when is something an insult? In your example those people are clearly wearing it because they love the look, which is a positive thing. For example if I want to paint my whole body green or something because I love it and think it looks great, but other people paint their body green for a religious reason, or because it's something their ancestors used to do, am I really insulting them even though I love how it looks? Can't I do it for my own personal reasons without it being an insult? Again, I'm not trying to be insensitive or something, I'm genuinely curious. I don't see why people can't wear a bindi-like accessory just because they love it, when they don't belong to that group of people. Even in that group someone was the first one to do it and give it that meaning. Why can't other people give it their own?

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Because you (people, not you specifically) have no business wearing a bindi accessory unless you're doing it as a part of that religion honestly. A lot of the people who wear bindis are ignorant of what it actually is and that's part of the problem and also what propagates it. It's the trivialization of something significant and its often offensive to the people who actually engage in the use of the original thing.

 

[HammerFace]

I'm not going to disagree with you here because I don't, but when is something an insult? In your example those people are clearly wearing it because they love the look, which is a positive thing. For example if I want to paint my whole body green or something because I love it and think it looks great, but other people paint their body green for a religious reason, or because it's something their ancestors used to do, am I really insulting them even though I love how it looks? Can't I do it for my own personal reasons without it being an insult? Again, I'm not trying to be insensitive or something, I'm genuinely curious. I don't see why people can't wear a bindi-like accessory just because they love it, when they don't belong to that group of people. Even in that group someone was the first one to do it and give it that meaning. Why can't other people give it their own?

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I feel like you've seriously misunderstood their post. People taking something that has religious significance or sacred meaning to it because it looks cool takes away from that religious or sacred and trivializes that significance. Your example about painting your body green is just bad? Like if you paint your body green because you like it is significantly different than seeing some religious ceremony where people paint themselves green and then saying to yourself "fuck this shit looks cool, I'm gonna ape their religious practices and paint myself green."

Additionally you're missing a crucial part where most of the time these things are taken and then commodified as well. So not only would you be ape-ing someone's sacred tradition, you'd be making a profit off it without paying any respects to their traditions.

 

[Glasfrut]

I suppose this is true in some places. But people in the United States love eating food from other cultures. And when they attend those restaurants, they usually expect to see staff from those cultures preparing and serving those dishes.

I don't really think I know anyone that actually enjoys food and seeks to enjoy it from some mainstream white chef. Most people I know love the authentic experience.

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Hm. I guess my question would be - are people more open to white faces or chefs from those cultures presenting it and popularizing it on t.v.? (Tales from my ass but) it does often feel like there's a divide. People seem to be willing to have someone from that culture prepare the food...but the establishment won't use the same person to push the culture into the mainstream.

 

[yepyepyep]

Its easily one of the dumbest terms. Sure, things can be offensive or lacking tack, people wearing the Native American dress at festivals for example, but it needs to be argued on a case by case basis. So much dumb shit has been labelled under cultural appropriation. I remember there were Asian Americans protesting wearing a Kimono at an art gallery and then Japanese people started counter protesting saying there is nothing wrong with westerners wearing kimonos.

 

[molnizzle]

Hm. I guess my question would be - are people more open to white faces or chefs from those cultures presenting it and popularizing it on t.v.? (Tales from my ass but) it does often feel like there's a divide. People seem to be willing to have someone from that culture prepare the food...but the establishment won't use the same person to push the culture into the mainstream.

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This is where people lose me in these discussions, because "the establishment" is such a nebulous concept that can't be pinned on anyone specifically. It just feels like a cop-out to try and limit what a person can wear or how they can express themself.

As for the chef thing, I can only speak for myself... but I would be extremely skeptical of a white chef giving sushi advise or something. My own anecdotal experiences make me think that that just about every other person would feel the same.

 

[Glasfrut]

I remember there were Asian Americans protesting wearing a Kimono at an art gallery and then Japanese people starting counter protesting saying there is not

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I don't know if I would call it "dumb shit". Or why we have to call it dumb. Maybe it's just two groups that have had different experiences with the white establishment, and therefore different reactions.

This is where people lose me in these discussions, because "the establishment" is such a nebulous concept that can't be pinned on anyone specifically. It just feels like a cop-out to try and limit what a person can wear or how they can express themself.

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Sorry, I used "the establishment" to be nebulous. I guess if I wanted a specific example I could use Food Network for example.

Why do you feel like someone's feelings about appropriation is an attempt to limit you? I don't think anyone has ever complained about someone cooking an Indian dish at home, for example. The issue tends to come up when (perhaps) we don't have as many Indian faces on tv compared to the white chefs that make money off of this "expertise".

I do agree with your last point about the chef. But that sadly doesn't translate into more celebrity chefs on tv of different backgrounds.

 

[Deleted member 11637]

So it's a racism thing, not a specific cultural thing? Because I've never really understood appropriation either. I always thought the entire point of U.S. culture was for it to mix and match from a huge variety of different backgrounds.

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"Privilege" is a better way to describe it. White people can adopt the slang or music of, say, black or Latinx culture without surrendering their whiteness, whereas minorities have the burden of being both entertaining and non-threatening if they're to succeed in a culture dominated by white gatekeepers. And no, 2018 America is not a kumbaya "melting pot" in which all cultures can integrate equally.

Cultural appropriation can likely be traced back for thousands of year in which people are not being credited for their works or ideas in which racial and cultural lines are crossed.
White people might be the focus of it right now.

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It's not an exclusively white concern, but again it's a matter of privilege. For example, I imagine predominantly Asian countries also liberally borrow from cultures for whom societal integration is denied. But with regard to the US and Europe, white culture has been the dominant elite for centuries, so it's not an unfair short-hand to say cultural appropriation is a white people issue.