I miss when Fighting games had atmosphere and weren't just esports fests.

[MoonsaultSlayer]

I understand that the pro level is what helps hype the genre and all nowadays, but I feel like the games have gotten sterile for the most part, almost conforming into one generic formula with meters and specials.

I miss the dozen-page blowouts in magazines for the newest Tekken, Soul Calibur or Mortal Kombat from casual-to-skilled reviewers/journalists and info on the character bios and overall story. I miss when the games' art and atmosphere cemented itself into that period of time to always look back on fondly.

One could say it's just nostalgia, but it's hard to agree with that when these days, the characters have more just become avatars for the esports/pro players rather than having their own identity. Ugly customization furthers my point.

I loved Tekken 7, it plays wonderfully... but as a long time, hardcore (casual level) Tekken fan, I was a bit underwhelmed in the story/singleplayer modes. And as excited as I am about SCVI, I can't help but shake the same feeling that it won't have the atmospheric tone it once had opting for the generic, soul-less tourney/spectator aspect.

I'm well aware I'm in the minority and this thread will backfire, but I'm sure most of you old folks like me who got into the genre before it became a televised sport with people wearing sponsored gear and instead played for the "durdur fighting game story lol" and casual MP might understand where I'm coming from even if you don't agree...? I don't know the point of this thread other than to point out my issue, but maybe I want to hear if pro players agree but don't let it bother them. Or to hear from folks who definitely don't agree and can tell me why I'm wrong. If anything, I hope the thread stays civil as I'm not bashing these games outright as I'm very fond of T7 and super excited for SCVI.

 

[Manu]

Mortal Kombat still has all of the things you say it doesn't, not sure why it's on your list.

 

[KillLaCam]

Mortal Kombat doesn't suffer from those things. But I think its because of the budget of those other games,

 

[Toadofsky]

I enjoy esports especially EVO and even some of the AGDQ when it isn't too much cringe, but I'd rather a good game be made that can be elevated to the tournament level. It seems a number of games are being made solely to cater to the e-sport scene and not in mind of anyone outside of that.

If I'm not mistaken Street Fighter V got rushed out solelyfor the eports crowd and look how well that turned out for it. The fact that the game didn't have an arcade mode AT LAUNCH was ridiculous. The game has supposedly gotten better (I haven't kept track of it), but it seems to have died down a lot.

 

[hibikase]

Nah, fighting games are poverty as fuck compared to the rest of eSports.

Just compare the tournament prizes to other game genres. Or just don't, if you don't wanna be depressed...

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

I listed MK just for context of what I am into, but yes, it's not part of my current issue.

 

[Platy]

Nah, fighting games are poverty as fuck compared to the rest of eSports.

Just compare the tournament prizes to other game genres. Or just don't, if you don't wanna be depressed...

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Which makes even weirder why some fighting games have such a huge eSports focus

 

[Deleted member 17627]

Agreed. eSports is also the reason why franchises like Street Fighter V and Tekken 7 are able to veil their lack of content by saying that their games are focused on the competitive scene instead.

Feels like the only franchises that are still making comprehensive fighting game packages are Guilty Gear and Blazblue.

 

[Fularu]

Nah, fighting games are poverty as fuck compared to the rest of eSports.

Just compare the tournament prizes to other game genres. Or just don't, if you don't wanna be depressed...

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This isn't preventing fighting games devs to chase after that elusive eSport crowd digging themselves deeper and deeper into irrelevancy

they now sell a fraction of what they used to be able to by catering to a very vocal and incredibly small minority

There's a reason why Smash outsells them all combined with ease, it never lost its casual roots.

 

[Zacmortar]

Esports in general are toxic as all hell and ruin a lot of things by association. For every good story like Sonicfox with dbfz, there's an entire smash crowd fucking booing their grand finals match because of the characters.

Large communities can fester toxicity, and when games are made with that community in mind/for the community first, it reaaaaaaaaaaaaally fucks it over.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I miss the dozen-page blowouts in magazines for the newest Tekken, Soul Calibur or Mortal Kombat from casual-to-skilled reviewers/journalists and info on the character bios and overall story.

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Fighting games had stories?

I mean, yes, of course they did, but you either had to go out of your way to read about them or you only got a small blurb at the end of arcade mode about a character's fate.

 

[crimzonflame]

Ah yes the 10 second Tekken PS1 endings that weren't in the arcade version.

 

[Fularu]

Fighting games had stories?

I mean, yes, of course they did, but you either had to go out of your way to read about them or you only got a small blurb at the end of arcade mode about a character's fate.

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At the height of Street Fighter's popularity no one gave two shits about character balance. Now people bitch and moan because their "main" isn'T powerful enough/can'T counter enough and that others should be nerfed leading to swiping changes and reworks on characters between "balancing patches"

I zoned out of SF5 because I just wasn't having fun anymore (and yet ('m ready to spend 500$ CND on an arcade replica of SF2 CE)

 

[Doctrine Dark]

Feels like the only franchises that are still making comprehensive fighting game packages are Guilty Gear and Blazblue.

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I'd actually say NRS makes more complete packages than all the others.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

I remember reading about all kinds of celebrities and musicians who played Tekken 3. No one was bragging about just frames and infinite combos, just having fun. Over the years during my time at Tekken Zaibatsu, talk got increasingly more about the competitive side and I felt alienated. There's nothing WRONG with it, it's just I wish the devs didn't forget about the casuals.

 

[JoDa]

Characters still have bios and still have stories and still have personalities in fact one of the main points for picking a character is the design and personality, and before you say pros only pick top tiers just look at infiltration in sfv still plays juri because he like her as a character.

I fail to see how the games lack personality for you, it's not like it's just to blobs fighting at each other in a white room

 

[crimzonflame]

At the height of Street Fighter's popularity no one gave two shits about character balance. Now people bitch and moan because their "main" isn'T powerful enough/can'T counter enough and that others should be nerfed leading to swiping changes and reworks on characters between "balancing patches"

I zoned out of SF5 because I just wasn't having fun anymore (and yet ('m ready to spend 500$ CND on an arcade replica of SF2 CE)

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What are you talking about? The whole reason we got CE is because people bitched about Guile and Dhalsim.

 

[Village]

I remember reading about all kinds of celebrities and musicians who played Tekken 3. No one was bragging about just frames and infinite combos, just having fun. Over the years during my time at Tekken Zaibatsu, talk got increasingly more about the competitive side and I felt alienated. There's nothing WRONG with it, it's just I wish the devs didn't forget about the casuals.

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I don't think devs forgot or will ever forget about casuals that's their bred and buttr.

It just seems like the circles you were in got more competitive, and that's it.

 

[Fularu]

I don't think devs forgot or will ever forget about casuals that's their bred and buttr.

It just seems like the circles you were in got more competitive, and that's it.

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SFV is exactly devs forgetting about dem filthy casuals and catering solely to the eSport/celebs crowd

Now the SFV brand is tarnished and will only sell a fraction of what SFIV achieved (let alone SF2)

 

[skillzilla81]

At the height of Street Fighter's popularity no one gave two shits about character balance. Now people bitch and moan because their "main" isn'T powerful enough/can'T counter enough and that others should be nerfed leading to swiping changes and reworks on characters between "balancing patches"

I zoned out of SF5 because I just wasn't having fun anymore (and yet ('m ready to spend 500$ CND on an arcade replica of SF2 CE)

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Just sounds like you're ignorant, tbh. People thought Gief was cheap because throws, dhalsim because limbs. People still complaining about spamming fireballs and uppercuts. Don't confuse anecdotes with reality.

 

[Village]

SFV is exactly devs forgetting about dem filthy casuals and catering solely to the eSport/celebs crowd

Now the SFV brand is tarnished and will only sell a fraction of what SFIV achieved (let alone SF2)

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Ok, that's one instance.

Who else

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Fighting games had stories?

I mean, yes, of course they did, but you either had to go out of your way to read about them or you only got a small blurb at the end of arcade mode about a character's fate.

Click to shrink...

Ah yes the 10 second Tekken PS1 endings that weren't in the arcade version.

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That was part of the charm and fun of it. Filling in the blanks, using my imagination, drawing the characters etc. Hell, Tekken 2 having its own subboss tune was hype enough making the fight seem more epic.

And yes, I loved reading the bios and story synopsis in magazines for Tekken 3 before even its arcade release.

 

[HardRojo]

SFV just released G.

 

[nded]

I think you're pining for a time when you were not aware of the competitive aspect of fighting games and story/lore was hard to come by and you're letting that color your perception of the current offerings.

 

[GooeyHeat]

I don't necessarily think the games themselves have changed that much, but the way we talk about them has.

Tekken 7 is admittedly a rougher example, but I think that's less because of a shift to competition and more because the series has just kind of brushed aside anybody who's not part of the main Mishima conflict since Tekken 5. But plenty of other fighters still have just as much character/story/aesthetic content as previous entries in their series, if not more. Guilty Gear in particular has put a lot into its story modes (so much so that they're basically just an in-engine anime, without actual fighting gameplay, which is an interesting choice that I don't hate). The King of Fighters XIV has a surprising amount of character interaction and intrigue baked into its standard "arcade mode" format, though SNK has excelled at that for a long time, IMO.

However, back in the mid-2000's, the competitive side of fighters was very niche. Tournament footage was distributed on tapes or DVDs, and only the hardest of the hardcore really participated or knew about them. With the rise of streaming, however, thousands of people can become aware of the competitive scene. In addition, the rise of workable online play has raised the average skill level greatly, making many more people aware of the intricacies of gameplay necessary to play at a higher level.

In some ways, this is great! It's super interesting to see the competition pool grow larger and to see more and more people understanding what really makes high-level gameplay tick, because it's some cool stuff. But it also means that general discussion of fighters frequently comes from this directly gameplay-focused direction. There's less of the perspective from people interested in stories, character interaction, aesthetic design, etc. So I can understand missing that sort of discourse, because it is lacking now.

 

[Strings]

I've mentioned it in a couple of posts already, but I'm going through Rival Schools again, and man does that game have a shiton of personality that modern fighters are lacking. I wouldn't mind more games eschewing full cutscene story modes to instead work in a sizeable amount of dialogue scenes:

SCVI actually seems to be going in this direction, which is promising. The Tekken 7 story mode was kind of hamstrung by their reliance on going full CGI, NetherRealm style (though I still enjoyed it - unlike MvCI).

 

[Fularu]

Ok, that's one instance.

Who else

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Tekken 7? Compared to all the previous Tekken games it's suuuuuper light in content for the single player/casual who just wants to play with friends and has the smallest cast (because DLC season characters now duh)

Undoubtly soon to be Soul Calibur 6

Marvel Vs Capcom Infinite (but that bombed anyway and I partially blame SFV's reception on it and not only the poor character designs)

The latest Blaze Blue (and its joke of a roster)

KoF XIV bucked that trend though and I'm positive SNK heroins will be great fun (and clearly not eSports focused)

 

[skillzilla81]

I think you're pining for a time when you were not aware of the competitive aspect of fighting games and story/lore was hard to come by and you're letting that color your perception of the current offerings.

Click to shrink...

A winner is you.

 

[Quad Lasers]

I don't give a shit about fighting game stories or lore, but I also don't give a shit about it being a "televised sport with people wearing sponsored gear"(lol wut?)

I've been playing fighting games for decades and the appeal today is still what it was decades ago: Cool characters doing cool moves and me having fun beating others with them.

They never stopped being about that.

 

[Professor Beef]

SFV is exactly devs forgetting about dem filthy casuals and catering solely to the eSport/celebs crowd

Now the SFV brand is tarnished and will only sell a fraction of what SFIV achieved (let alone SF2)

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Street Fighter 4 was released after a decade of no new SF games and (arguably) revitalize the genre. Comparing sales like that is a bit disingenuous.

 

[Deleted member 15326]

The games don't sell numbers, which is why you don't see big spreads on them anymore.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Characters still have bios and still have stories and still have personalities in fact one of the main points for picking a character is the design and personality, and before you say pros only pick top tiers just look at infiltration in sfv still plays juri because he like her as a character.

I fail to see how the games lack personality for you, it's not like it's just to blobs fighting at each other in a white room

Click to shrink...

The art has become stagnant. Tekken for instance has kept the same character art since T5 for the most part. "Because their look is iconic" which goes against the progression the series once had.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

The games don't sell numbers, which is why you don't see big spreads on them anymore.

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Is it because it became more competitive though?

 

[Kapryov]

There wasn't an online community back then, so they needed to add a lot to justify the price I guess.
Not that it really mattered back then, I put hundreds of hours into the 16-bit MK2 somehow, I don't think there was much if any single player content beyond the standard towers. It was just fun to play.

Now what I miss are hidden characters, I can't say that enough.
Remember when characters were actually secret, and not mentioned in any promotional material? That was magical, bring it back.

 

[Zyrox]

Mainline ArcSys fighters (Guilty Gear and Blazblue) have all the single player stuff you want. Mortal Kombat does too. Unfortunate of course that Tekken and Street Fighter didn't deliver much in that department with their current iterations but there's more stuff in the genre than those two.

 

[Fularu]

Street Fighter 4 was released after a decade of no new SF games and (arguably) revitalize the genre. Comparing sales like that is a bit disingenuous.

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SFV cratering sales wise compared to the previous instalment is definitely something to be discussed.

SF IV had mad hype and actually came out feature complete and while it had a few revisions (Super, Arcade, Arcade rebalancing and Ultra, to stay true with the previous way SF games were handled) they were still very popular

SFV forgoed 6 years of building up the SF brand through 4's various releases and crapped on it all to the now known result.

Also the genre was never dead. Smash was still selling 10+ million units per entry during SF's absence from home consoles.

 

[Chindogg]

There's a reason why Smash outsells them all combined with ease, it never lost its casual roots.

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It clearly doesn't have anything to do with having the most popular franchise characters of all time beating each other up.

 

[Fularu]

It clearly doesn't have anything to do with having the most popular franchise characters of all time beating each other up.

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Yes because SF's cast is absolutely not iconic (SF2 sold over 14 million copies)

 

[Deleted member 1656]

I know what you mean, OP, and it isn't exclusive to fighting games. It concerns me the emphasis esports can have on a game's presentation and atmosphere. I don't think there's anything wrong with it being there—in fact, I think esports should be part of a game's presentation when it has an established scene. But games should be games first, which is to say they should have a personality and world of their own for players to inhabit. I believe games should be tuned for the highest level, but made to interest a noncompetitive audience with their atmosphere, and that's kind of a tough balance to strike. Something like Smite for example, really suffers from a lack of personality in favor of emphasizing competitive aspects imo.

 

[Nemesis121]

These intros died with SF4...

 

[I KILL PXLS]

I just don't see what you're talking about OP. Can you give like a more concrete example of "atmosphere" in older games that newer games don't? It sort of sounds like you're talking about single player content but, other than SF5 not launching with some of that (which I agree was a mistake), I feel like fighting games have WAY more single player stuff than we used to get so I'm kind of at a loss.

I think you're pining for a time when you were not aware of the competitive aspect of fighting games and story/lore was hard to come by and you're letting that color your perception of the current offerings.

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Yeah, OP. If by "atmosphere" you're talking about the conversation around the genre's games, I'm going to have to agree with this post.

 

[Mr Spasiba]

Imma be real with you chief, I got no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Chindogg]

Yes because SF's cast is absolutely not iconic (SF2 sold over 14 million copies)

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I love SF deeply, but let's not bullshit the fact that Smash's fanbase is literally an entire console's fanbase.

This also coming from a Nintendo fan.

I feel like every aspect about this thread isn't so much noting anything poignant about a decline of fighting games in as much as it's just failing to recognize that the industry today is very different than the industry in the 90s when a Street Fighter or Tekken getting a competent home console port was a major event. We can start right there for one: arcades are dead. Secondly I think the genre is healthier than it's been in a while and esports is only a small part of that.

Seriously I find this head scratching. Like I think Tekken was probably at its mass market peak at 3. Single player mode was just playing the same arcade mode over and over again to unlock 30 second CGI videos. There were also neat but hollow Tekken Force and a beach ball modes. I implore you to play that game again.

And there was a competitive scene out there even then. It was just way, way harder to find it.

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Well said.

 

[Deleted member 896]

I feel like every aspect about this thread isn't so much noting anything poignant about a decline of fighting games in as much as it's just failing to recognize that the industry today is very different than the industry in the 90s when a Street Fighter or Tekken getting a competent home console port was a major event. We can start right there for one: arcades are dead. Secondly I think the genre is healthier than it's been in a while and esports is only a small part of that.

Seriously I find this head scratching. Like I think Tekken was probably at its mass market peak at 3. Single player mode was just playing the same arcade mode over and over again to unlock 30 second CGI videos. There were also neat but hollow Tekken Force and a beach ball modes. I implore you to play that game again.

And there was a competitive scene out there even then. It was just way, way harder to find it.

 

[JusDoIt]

We live in a time with the largest variety of fighting games since the golden age, but you're complaining about generic formulas? What is this formula? Who is even following it? What even is the typical fighting game right now? Can anyone describe it, because every major title seems pretty distinct from my view.

And this whole notion that fighting games are just being made for the pros is weird to me too. Fighting games are all about fan service right now, in all the different ways you can define it, from FEXL, to DBFZ, to Smash Ultimate, to SNK Heroines, to Tekken 7, and even yes Street Fighter V AE. Like the pros are on Twitter complaining about how dumbed down the games are getting. They're more accessible and packed with content and easter eggs than ever.

 

[Professor Beef]

I think you're pining for a time when you were not aware of the competitive aspect of fighting games and story/lore was hard to come by and you're letting that color your perception of the current offerings.

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Sounds like this is it

 

[duckroll]

Mortal Kombat, Injustice, Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Dragon Ball FighterZ, Skullgirls, maybe even Soul Calibur 6? Doesn't seem like fighting games as a genre has really gone full tilt into e-sports at all. Most of them still seem to be very much about characters with personalities and backstory, have substantial single player modes, and lots of story content. Street Fighter and Tekken going into the toilet a bit because of crappy management isn't indicative of the genre at large.

 

[skillzilla81]

What is the conversation supposed to be a out with fighters after release? Casual players will complete what single player content there is and move on. Most won't care to engage for very long, and that leaves people who care more about in depth gameplay mechanics. This had nothing to do with esports. It's the reason many people play Fighting games. It's the reason they were made.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

The difference between a Tekken 2 with no dialog and character bios in a manual and a Tekken 7 with a story mode is T2 had an artistic atmosphere, music and look that set it apart and made me invest more time in knowing the story... T7 gave me who Yoshimitsu's first round opponent was.... and that's assuming there was even a tournament with whatever the hell was going on in the Mishima story mode...

 

[KCsoLucky]

Soul Calibur and Tekken Tag were lauded for the amount of content that they had, and what we get in most games today is much more than those two came with. I really don't understand your argument. The "atmosphere" of the games doesn't feel any different to me, besides a move from sprites to 3D art made some characters hideous. I'm also a person who used to plug in 2 controllers to practice before training modes were a thing.

What is the conversation supposed to be a out with fighters after release? Casual players will complete what single player content there is and move on. Most won't care to engage for very long, and that leaves people who care more about in depth gameplay mechanics. This had nothing to do with esports. It's the reason many people play Fighting games. It's the reason they were made.

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Yeah, someone who only cared about the "story" would beat a 20-30 minute ladder and see each character's 30 second ending once and then what? This argument really seems hinged on how we perceive things when we're younger and/or more naive.