Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
Yeah I think this game just suffers from not really committing to either thing fully. It needed to either just be a straight up, high quality Metroidvania with weapon variance or be a complete Rogue-Like where your build variance and start point are always unique and don't feel repetitive. Maybe I'd feel better if the weapons were clicking better, or the upgrade tree seemed like it went anywhere novel beyond "now you have more things and a higher number in your number stat" but it just feels like it doesn't really mesh with either genre well where something like Rogue Legacy did so perfectly.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
I've not given up, I actually just had another run a minute ago.

It was okay, I had a good time overall. First few stages were a little boring but I enjoyed running around with the firebomb thing. Combat is absolutely the games highlight.

I think at the moment I'm in a position where I really don't want to play because my save was lost. I think starting from scratch on this game is really, really awful. When you first play, the gameplay alone is enough to carry the experience till you unlock more items. But playing from scratch when I'm already very familiar with the game, having to unlock health flasks and play with the most boring items in the entire game. It's just a really bad experience.

I think it's especially annoying that you have to pay 100+ cells to randomise your starting weapon. Players shouldn't have to play the metagame to unlock the fun elements of the game.
And even when you unlock the randomization, the game is so built towards specific styles of play that you can't just have these stupid zany builds that compound to break the game. Sure you can makes some builds that just punish with damage, but you always need a CC stun, and you always need sustain damage, which means two of your precious four weapon slots are ALWAYS taken and if you don't roll well within the first six minutes you should just die or spam to the upgrade room to spend your cells before starting over because you can't find inventive ways to make a non-meta build viable later beyond just dumb luck or absurd skill
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,932
There should be a thread (hell, even a whole site) dedicated to games advice that talks about "that one big obstacle" that people overcame to actually understand and truly engage with a game.

Dead Cells is a game I'm toying with right now and I suppose I have *too much* baggage and innate knowledge from similar titles to understand it. It's a beautiful game to look at but I'm just not understanding the terms and trinkets being served up to me.

I might start from scratch and stop being lazy in the first two stages and instead focus on my loadout first up.

There is really no way to avoid the sewers/promenade every run? The locked doors and time portals are quite the tantalising teasers.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,048
I agree that the first few levels are pretty much a slog. I think all of the levels are a bit too long and the average run takes longer than I'd like. I was really high on the game at first, but after 20ish hours I started getting burnt out on the formula.
 
Oct 31, 2017
626
I struggled with the first boss a few times, I think he's easy now but not at first. Even now, I think he's damage aura is cheap and punishes certain builds far more than any other. He's a joke against tactics builds.

I'll have to try a tactics build sometime. I tend to get flustered once I get to him, make a few dumb mistakes, and that's it.

Playing Hollow Knight right now, I do a lot better parked closer to a boss. Feels like I can focus more on the fight instead of getting there.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,526
Denver, CO
Agree with OP for the most part. I love the tight combat, but unlocking things isn't rewarding since there isn't enough variety in the levels or tactics needed to progress to make it worth your while. It's super grindy and overall, the experience isn't meaningful. It's just boring.
 

mephixto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
306
I've not given up, I actually just had another run a minute ago.

It was okay, I had a good time overall. First few stages were a little boring but I enjoyed running around with the firebomb thing. Combat is absolutely the games highlight.

I think at the moment I'm in a position where I really don't want to play because my save was lost. I think starting from scratch on this game is really, really awful. When you first play, the gameplay alone is enough to carry the experience till you unlock more items. But playing from scratch when I'm already very familiar with the game, having to unlock health flasks and play with the most boring items in the entire game. It's just a really bad experience.

I think it's especially annoying that you have to pay 100+ cells to randomise your starting weapon. Players shouldn't have to play the metagame to unlock the fun elements of the game.

Starting weapon is always shit even if its your favorite weapon, it's low lvl and you either gonna drop it in the next lvls or buy an upgrade. So starting weapon doesn't matter. Health flasks are overated, money is your best friend and priority.

About weapons and traps I don't know what to tell you, there are so so so many combiantions and combos, many playstyles and thats why Dead Cells is great.

There are many games that let you pick what weapon you unlock you want to use from the start and there is Dead Cells, you like that or you don't, and it's OK.
 
OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,523
Starting weapon is always shit even if its your favorite weapon, it's low lvl and you either gonna drop it in the next lvls or buy an upgrade. So starting weapon doesn't matter. Health flasks are overated, money is your best friend and priority.

About weapons and traps I don't know what to tell you, there are so so so many combiantions and combos, many playstyles and thats why Dead Cells is great.

There are many games that let you pick what weapon you unlock you want to use from the start and there is Dead Cells, you like that or you don't, and it's OK.

I know this is true, but having a randomised starting weapon adds much needed variety to the first area(s) of the game.
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,484
Also burnt out on it much quicker than I expected for a lot of the reasons outlined in the OP. Though I mostly wasn't engaging with it as much as I expected from the get-go. Admittedly I am not a big run-based fan, but I do very much enjoy Rogue Legacy and Gungeon, so I assumed this was a homerun.

But yea, there wasn't really much of interest here. The majority of my playtime was spent on the first two stages against foes and mazes that I grew so terribly tired of seeing and playing. I didn't feel like many runs contributed much of anything for my playtime either. I never really had the urge to attempt more than a single run each game session largely for that reason.

I never did make it very far, but in the several weeks of playing I neither felt my skill overcame a necessary hurdle no matter how many orbs I slowly grinded or blueprints I struggled holding onto and lost to death. It just felt like a much flatter progression curve(at least in my experience) compared to similar games.
 
OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,523
Also burnt out on it much quicker than I expected for a lot of the reasons outlined in the OP. Though I mostly wasn't engaging with it as much as I expected from the get-go. Admittedly I am not a big run-based fan, but I do very much enjoy Rogue Legacy and Gungeon, so I assumed this was a homerun.

But yea, there wasn't really much of interest here. The majority of my playtime was spent on the first two stages against foes and mazes that I grew so terribly tired of seeing and playing. I didn't feel like many runs contributed much of anything for my playtime either. I never really had the urge to attempt more than a single run each game session largely for that reason.

I never did make it very far, but in the several weeks of playing I neither felt my skill overcame a necessary hurdle no matter how many orbs I slowly grinded or blueprints I struggled holding onto and lost to death. It just felt like a much flatter progression curve(at least in my experience) compared to similar games.

Well, Gungeon doesn't really help you all that much either. I think Gungeon has a similar problem in that if you're not good at twin stick shooters, you'll never beat it. Rogue Legacy has a progression curve, so you'll win eventually, just by playing. It's not really a problem, though, I think it's valid to design games like that, but I imagine there are lots of players feeling similar to you on Gungeon.

Issac eventually lets you win just by getting good RNG. Gungeon doesn't, because of the ammo limitations. You still won't clear hell unless you're very good at the game, as you'll likely run out of ammo.

Rogue Legacy has steady progression of various core stats, so that helps a lot in ensuring players progress further and further into the game.
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,357
I thought this would be a regular Metroidvania. If I had known it was a rogue-like/lite (which is the current one?) I wouldn't have bothered with it. Still haven't finished it despite spending several hours on it, I'm terrible and the game is unforgivingly hard, but I'm not knocking down Dead Cells for my own mistake.

It's great, just not for me.
 

mephixto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
306
Oh great they drop a big patch while I'm on vacation, there's a shit ton of changes can't wait to try it.

Also I know many of you started playing this when it launched on the Switch, the game is totally different from when it started on early access on Steam, some of the things you like to be in the game were on it at some point and were removed or redone cause it didn't work on how the game is build some featrures made the game repetitive, others made it too easy (OP weapons, combos, etc).

Every big patch they drop changes the game a lot, and thats what I love the team behind the game.

I'm gonna try to download the game in this shitty laptop and try the new patch, fck it.
 

SaintBowWow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,097
I dropped this game pretty quickly and had many of the same complaints as the OP. I generally dislike any roguelike that has permanent upgrades as the games are largely a grind to boost your stats to the point where you can reasonably beat the game. The starting item pool is too small as well and as a result most runs feel incredibly similar. Adding no variation in bosses on top of all this caused me to pretty easily drop it. It's also not really a Metroidvania at all and I don't know why people keep saying it is.
 

Tuxedotank

Member
Jan 9, 2018
274
I'm kind of bummed a thread like this didn't pop up sooner or I might have spent my money elsewhere. The effusive praise I heard from many outlets convinced me to bite during a black Friday sale and having started it recently, it does not click as much as I hoped. Dead Cells absolutely feels great and combat is good, but at this point is a victim of its own success.

One of the biggest repetitive issues for me is I can see the skeleton of some levels like the promenade so easily it makes me wonder why they bothered making it procedurally generated at all. You start on the left, go right, find a teleporter and a path down to a timed door, go right to a teleporter and a path down, go right to a teleporter and a path down, a vine, a teleporter and a path down, and then the path to the ramparts. They want so many features intact for each run and that familiarity breeds contempt for the game structure, especially since I think a traditional metroidvania Dead Cells could be very promising.

I may pick at Dead Cells a little bit more, but I will definitely keep an eye out for any future games by Motion Twin.
 

XaosWolf

One Winged Slayer - Powered by Friendship™
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,977
When I was playing it I wasn't exactly digging the combat that everyone was praising. Especially as you go forward and it becomes apparent that you're far better off just hurling traps at enemies to have them kill them for you. Anything that doesn't stun or hold an enemy in place is worthless for your run so you end up with similar weapon sets every time just with slightly different numbers.

Add to that the way unlocking things works: find/buy a new item > reach the next checkpoint > unlock the ability to pay to to unlock the item for future runs. I hate this. Playing Gungeon prior and if you find an item in the dungeon its instantly added to the pool for future runs. More stuff can be bought in the shop and immediately goes in the pool. And challenge/boss based weapons also go straight into the pool.

Its the unlock system that ultimately made me give up on the game. Grindy and unrewarding on top of the repetitive runs and I just don't have the patience to do that when there are much more fun roguelites available.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
The first few areas being devoid of challenge turns nearly every run into a slog.

It's the game's biggest fault.

Great mechanics though, and frankly a very good game.
 

Nose Master

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,731
I haven't played since a few weeks after the official release, but I get it. My main beef was a turret build spanked everything so thoroughly, and that the bosses had way too much health. It's not challenge, it's just repetition. You spend 5+ minutes dodging two attack patterns from a boss while whittling away bullshit amounts of HP.

The level generation is a bit too samey for what it's going for, also. If you've played one run, you've played them all.
 

protonion

Member
Dec 10, 2017
156
Yes.
I was expecting a better Rogue Legacy (a game I adore), but Dead Cells did nothing for me.

It is not as much fun and the levels are just boring. I felt no excitement at all.
In RL or Binding of Isaac I couldn't wait to enter a new room and see what awaits there.
Id rather it was a proper metroidvania.
 

Deleted member 8791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,383
I enjoyed my time with the game a lot despite never beating the final boss. The reason I stopped playing too was that getting to the last boss got too easy but beating that too hard. (Makes me sad to hear final boss is BUFFED in next update too.... What?)
 

LebGuns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,131
1.1 patch is coming to console soon with custom mode to help drop what you want to drop too.
lots of big changes coming.

https://dead-cells.com/patchnotes

Some of the best devs right now, all ears on feedback.

The new patch also buffs him against root effects (Wolf Trap, Root Grenade). It's ridiculous.

For the most part though, the 1.1 update looks to be really, really awesome.

What the fuck? Fuck that. I can't beat him as is!
 
OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,523
I dropped this game pretty quickly and had many of the same complaints as the OP. I generally dislike any roguelike that has permanent upgrades as the games are largely a grind to boost your stats to the point where you can reasonably beat the game. The starting item pool is too small as well and as a result most runs feel incredibly similar. Adding no variation in bosses on top of all this caused me to pretty easily drop it. It's also not really a Metroidvania at all and I don't know why people keep saying it is.

I agree with the permanent upgrades. I think the health upgrades are a big waste of time, and arbitrarily extend the life of the game without making the player feel rewarded for playing. WIth that said, it's not too bad in Dead Cells.

In Rogue Legacy, I hit a point where I had to stop playing because some of the enemies would take 10+ regular sword hits to kill. I knew I had to play the same content over and over to grind damage. I might go back to it but I found it disheartening.

Dead Cells isn't like that though. You can beat the game with the starting gear, it feels possible if hard to achieve.

Moonlighter is a good example of a roguelite where I feel permanent upgrades really work. They're built into the game in an interesting way and while the game is repetitive, the shopkeeper mechanics make even repetitious unsuccessful runs feel rewarding. Perhaps it's just me, but I forgive that game for similar issues that really grate on me in Dead Cells. I think it's because I play Moonlighter for different reasons.
 
Last edited:
Nov 1, 2017
187
I feel the same way. It was a fun challenge to reach the final boss but after my first attempt I got the feeling that the only way that I will ever beat him is by grinding hours upon hours. And since I''ve unlocked all the tools required for exploration, I have seen every branching path and every secret.
The 15h it took me to get this far were fun though.
 

Mexen

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,934
The more I interact with ERA the more I realise that I am not very good at games. Or maybe I play them wrongly? I dunno. Threads like this offer great perspective though.
Usually when I find a game too easy, it's because it just is. I recently made a thread on this when I asked for advice from ERA because I found Pokemon Moon boring even after 30 hours of gameplay. But the consensus there was that it just is. I beat Sahenlanthropus in 9 minutes, I got reports of 4- minutes. Turned out I wasn't just good at TPP, that boss fight is just easy.
Dead Cells, Into the Breach even, kicked. My. Ass. And I love it. There's a challenge there I'm relishing.
I guess someone like OP is really good at video games. But perhaps, I'm just not good at them.

I'll check out Enter the Gungeon out. Until now, I've never bothered to find out more.


Edit: and Moonlighter
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,595
UK
Glad this thread was made Chronospherics cause I was reading GOTY lists and none of these criticisms were mentioned that would put me off the game.

And can we stop people from gatekeeping what threads can be made outside the OT? It's the equivalent of thread whining. Because I don't see another Dead Cells criticism thread.
 

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
Still have to play it myself but the OP's points reflect exactly the doubts I have about this game, from the many videos I have seen. The moment to moment gameplay looks fun but at a distance the game always looked repetitive and not diversive enough to me, even in the roguelike genre where you do the same things over and over again.

I've only played for a few hours and haven't gotten too far but I agree with OPs sentiments. I loved Binding of Isaac and Enter the Gungeon and was expecting the same variety in each run here but unfortunately it feels too samey. Its always the same weapons and none of them feel too creative or different from one another. In Gungeon everytime I unlocked a new weapon it could be anything, in Dead Cells its always the same bow, trap or grenade. Slower melee weapons like the hammer or firebrand feel unviable (to my playstyle at least)

Maybe all this will change when I unlock more stuff to the itempool but the game isn't exactly motivating me to do that. And like the OP, I rarely wanna start another playthrough after dying whereas in Isaac or Gungeon I'd instantly start a new run to discover the different possibilities.

A shame because I was really looking forward to Dead Cells and it being the next big roguelike but what I've played so far hasn't hooked me at all.
Or this. Also reflects my impressions. Maybe it's just a lack of experience from the developers?
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
It goes without saying, that while I find Dead Cells boring, this isn't a truism. I'm interested in discussing this. I'm struggling to find the game engaging, for the reasons I'll go on to describe.

The first two to three levels offer no challenge and feel repetitive

The game incentivises replayability, but the first few levels are boring. The RNG offers diverse weapons (provided you've unlocked them) but no variation in the enemies you encounter. The enemies in the first few stages are few in variety and have the same, simplistic attack pattern (either attempting to melee, or shoot something at you).

There's zero chance that I'll die within the first 3 levels, and there's no varying levels of accomplishment. In Enter the Gungeon, even though the first level is easy, I can pursue a no-hit run for extra loot, and attain an extra heart if I can beat the boss without damage.
You can skip to harder levels later on and if you really want you can rush though the first couple of levels in like a minute and the game even rewards you for it.

The Early Boss Fights are Dull and Invariant
Similar to the issue with the first three levels, the games boss fights are interesting when you first encounter them, but they stop being so one you've figured out their attack patterns. Every run I do, I know I'll defeat the first two bosses. I always know which bosses I'll be facing on a run (because there's no variance) and that means there's never any surprises. Again, the only interesting thing happening here is the loot.
I don't really see the problem here to be honest, of course you will figure out how to fight the early bosses since you will face them way more often. the first time I fought the Bridge-boss he destroyed me so figuring the guy out and being able to beat him without getting hit was super rewarding to me.

The Meta-Progression Often Fails to Meaningfully Impact the Gameplay
Early on, most of your cells will likely be sunk into health flask upgrades. These cost a large number of cells, and they don't meaningfully change the game in any way. They just allow the game to forgive your mistakes more frequently. There are many similar upgrades, such as increased gold when you restart.
They don't change the game in a meaningful way? Having more health is crucial, what are you talking about? If you don't think they change the game, don't invest in them. I didn't just go for the health potions but also for interesting weapons which where much cheaper and made the game way more fun.
Death Feels Like a Bitter Experience Rather than an Encouraging One

Die in Dark Souls and you're pushed forward with the hope that you can reclaim your Souls. Die in Enter the Gungeon, and the game reminds you how well you did and how the Gungeon will be different next time, with new items and weapons present in the dungeon. Die in Issac, and while the game provides no explicit incentive, you know that the game varies so wildly, the next run will likely be, very different.

None of this is true in Dead Cells. When you die, you're reminded of what you have lost. There's nothing new added to your run at that point in time, and you're not pushed forward by the prospect that the next run will be different, because it won't be. The first 2-3 floors, the first 15 minutes of the game will be the same repetitive grind as they were before.

I really don't understand what mean here. The first level in Isaac is always the same, the game doesn't get really crazy until much later on - which is exactly what you criticize Dead Cells for. When I played Enter the Gungeon the first levels were by far the worst since you had to fight the same enemies again and again but with a really uninteresting weapon. The starting weapons in EtG are abysmally boring. Maybe they changed that later on, that I don't know. So what is it that makes death in Enter the Gungeon encouraging (leaving aside the question whether dying should actually feel rewarding) but not in Dead Cells?
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,450
I think Dead Cells succeeds precisely because it encourages players to push themselves. It's very easy to pass levels while being slow, methodical, and cautious--but the game has lavish rewards for players that dash with breakneck speed through each area and hit the timed gates; with rewards that equal or surpass that which you'd get for finely combing the level. It is a game that gives you tools and knowledge, and challenges you to make the most of them. At every turn, Dead Cells knows what players can do, and challenges them to do better.

The best part of this is how good everything in Dead Cells feels. Movement is fluid, allowing the player to literally flow over obstacles like water, and gets more frenetic the faster and more efficient players are--it's a sweet combo that makes for incredibly satisfying gameplay that compliments the level design and progression.

Dead Cells is just... exceptionally fun.
 

Kiraly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,848
I think Dead Cells succeeds precisely because it encourages players to push themselves. It's very easy to pass levels while being slow, methodical, and cautious--but the game has lavish rewards for players that dash with breakneck speed through each area and hit the timed gates; with rewards that equal or surpass that which you'd get for finely combing the level. It is a game that gives you tools and knowledge, and challenges you to make the most of them. At every turn, Dead Cells knows what players can do, and challenges them to do better.

The best part of this is how good everything in Dead Cells feels. Movement is fluid, allowing the player to literally flow over obstacles like water, and gets more frenetic the faster and more efficient players are--it's a sweet combo that makes for incredibly satisfying gameplay that compliments the level design and progression.

Dead Cells is just... exceptionally fun.

Agree with everything in this. Playing Dead Cells feels so good it really feels like you get in a state of 'flow' as you blow through the levels and enemies. This game has helped me immensely this past year to forget about a lot of bullshit. Very quick to pick up as well.

The fact you always feel like you make some sort of progress is a plus. Dead Cells is the only rogue-like I've greatly enjoyed. Rogue Legacy couldn't grab me because by now it is mechanically far surpassed by Dead Cells (the movement feels very stiff, etc.) even though I can recognise that the permanent progression in the game is sound. Fuck Enter the Gungeon where it feels like you start at exactly 0 after every single run.
 

Deleted member 9305

Oct 26, 2017
4,064
I played 120+ hours of Dead Cells and was never bored. That's just me, YMMV.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
Do you disagree? Has anyone else felt the same? Is there something that I'm missing about the game?

For me the OP is hilarious as in my opinion it's the most fun game of the year.

The first two to three levels offer no challenge and feel repetitive

-The only level that is mostly the same is the first one, already for the second you have a choice, play in the Sewers or in the Promenade. That helps a bit to alleviate boredom from repeated runs.
-The challenge of the first few levels is higher on higher difficulties, of course so 'there is no challenge in them' is relative. In these higher difficulties you won't have guaranteed the replenishment of health, so it's more important to not being hit, the game no longer is about reaching safely the end of each level, each hit matters more.
- In said difficulties more types of advanced enemies can spawn also, in hard mode you get Inquisitors in the first level, and the guys who spawn 3 shots and a group of bats, so the gameplay variety is bigger.
-You talk about how in Enter the Gungeon you can pursuit other goals, it's the same here. You can do quick runs to reach the timed doors, or you can kill x enemies without being hit for the new challenge doors.

The Early Boss Fights are Dull and Invariant

/shrug. I mean, yeah, it would be nice to have even more variety of bosses. Having 6 of instead of 3. Or 12 instead of 6. Or 24 instead of... you get my point. Wanting more enemies, more weapons, more bosses, more levels.... you can always wish for more in almost any game. I think this game already have much more true variety than most roguelites.

The Meta-Progression Often Fails to Meaningfully Impact the Gameplay


There area only a few upgrades like the ones you are mentioning: the health upgrades, the gold upgrades, the recycling upgrades. I think there was one more? The rest (95% of them) are new weapons, new items and new mutations that impact the gameplay a lot.

The problem is the slow grind of getting cells, which is even worse in that early part of the game you mention, as you have to invest the cells you win in upgrades that won't change the gameplay a lot. Which is why you should play the superior version of the game, the PC version, which has integrated mod support. There are mods that give you more cells (I created two of them, counting a compilation mod, more than 11k players are subscribed to them, mine weren't the most popular version, there are others), which I recommend using. Hell, or just use a trainer and give yourself 1000 cells to make shorter that part of having to spend your cells in ever-increasing expensive upgrades for one more potion use.

Death Feels Like a Bitter Experience Rather than an Encouraging One


So just because you are reminded in Gungeon the next run will be different, is it better? Lol, what do you want, a text on screen literally saying 'next turn will be different!'. It has procedural generation of levels, of course it will be different, who cares if there a message that says it or not.
And Dead Cells runs vary wildly, more than Gungeon or Isaac.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
I will use the chance to plug in my lastest rebalance mod:

KTq8iBh.png

(that's supposed to represent a gentle ramp, lol)

If you skill level moves around BC1-BC2, this mod is for you.

Description:

This mod intends to put the different difficulties closer, with less skill gaps between them, making the game in general easier with the exception of normal mode which right now in my opinion is too easy in 1.1 (so BC0 is a bit harder and BC1-4 are easier), it also smooth out difficulty bumps in some of the bosses or specific levels.

In more detail:
-The game has 5 difficulties, from BC0 (Boss Cell 0) to BC4. They are also called Normal, Hard, Very Hard, Expert and Nightmare.
-BC0 (the starting mode) has been made slightly harder, to be honest it's even hard to notice the difference. It's still notably easier than both BC0 in the previous (1.0) version of the game and the BC1 of this mod.
-BC1 is somewhat similar in difficulty per level (enemy health and damage) than before, it's only in the last threes levels where small tweaks have been done; however the health fountain has been activated again (like BC0 in the unmodded game).
-BC2 to BC4 have been made much easier than before. They play just increasingly a bit harder than the previous difficulty. To illustrate this, for example, the scaling of enemies (health/damage) in BC4 is very similar to what you had in BC2 without the mod. The main difference in challenge in these difficulties comes now from other factors like extra enemy density, harder enemies found before, extra elites, less fountain uses, less gold, etc.
-Fountain health in general has been changed by one tier. In the original game you start having broken fountains in BC1 and BC3 and BC4 are all broken, in the mod it starts at BC2 and only BC4 are all broken.
-BC4 keeps the infection mechanic and the extra enemy aggressiveness.
-BC3 and BC4 had a gold reduction multiplier, I kept it but much more less punishing. In BC3 you will win 10% less gold, and in BC4 you will win 20% less gold.
-BC0 and BC1 has the same cell multiplier than in BC2, to alleviate another issue I find this game, the cell grinding. BC3 & BC4 has even a higher cell multiplier.
 

GOOCHY

Member
Oct 29, 2017
299
I liked it a lot. It's probably my 2nd favorite game of 2018 next to Astro Bot. The feeling of progression even when you go deep into the game and die is really fun.
 

Fortinbras

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,647
Bought it during the Xbox countdown sale and I'm not enjoying it as much as I thought I would.

I like hard games but most deaths in this game feel super cheap.
 

stan_marsh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,688
Canada
I liked it a lot. It's probably my 2nd favorite game of 2018 next to Astro Bot. The feeling of progression even when you go deep into the game and die is really fun.

Yea the initial banking of cells feels like it'll take forever but once shit unlocks man the runs become so varied. I can do a run where I just slash every enemy to pieces or runs where I just use traps + arrow or arrow+bombs ..etc can mix it up a lot.
 

Kabukimurder

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
550
I agree with a lot of OP critisism but i think the gameplay is still pretty damn fun after 10-15 hours.

It's far less engaging as a Rogue-lite than Rogue Legacy however. A game wich for me pefected how a metroidvania style game could work with a run-based formula. The biggest difference for me is that the runs are too damn long in DC and that your progression is too vague. A similliar issue i have with Enter the gungeon.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,949
There's zero chance that I'll die within the first 3 levels, and there's no varying levels of accomplishment. In Enter the Gungeon, even though the first level is easy, I can pursue a no-hit run for extra loot, and attain an extra heart if I can beat the boss without damage.

Silly comparison to make when you can do similar things in Dead Cells as well...

The only difference is instead of the passive play of a no hit run in Enter the Gungeon, you are encouraged to be more reckless and do speed runs of the levels to find the timed doors and the gear hidden behind them. Doing so increases the risk of death while also guaranteeing a solid reward for playing more reckless. So my recommendation is if you find the game too easy, play for the timed doors.

It's been several months since I last played so i don't know what else they've added since, but I really don't agree that the game is too easy or boring since I was able to make the game as difficult as I wanted to based on my play style.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,402
I don't like it either, but I still tried it because I liked the look of a lot of it. Thing is, I can't stand procedurally generated levels, for me that's a game-killer, so I can't really blame the game for that.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
There is a lot of brilliance in the basic action of this game. Everyone agrees the animations, the controls, the enemy feedback are great, but the game feels so good thanks to that, and a series of systems added into the game that are more subtle, like:

-the rally effect: you can recover some health you just lost by dealing damage to the enemies quickly. This allows for a somewhat fast, agressive and fun style within a game that otherwise is hard enough to be better to play conservatively.
-death prevention: if someone would kill you in one hit when you are over 25% hp, you are left with 1 hp and with a time slow down, enough to save the situation.
-interrupt system/breach: you can briefly stun enemies by dealing a big amount of damage to them while they are doing an attack or defense animation. Some weapons are better/worse in doing this, and some enemies are better/worse at resisting it.
-speed bonus: kill several enemies in a limited amount of time, and you win a speed bonus, which allows you to maintain the bonus even more time.

It's thanks to all this that the flow of the game is so good.

It also has a nice environment interaction layer that increase the variety of the action, like:
-breaching a door and stunning who is behind it.
-break a ceiling and do a lot of damage to whatever is below it.
-dive from the heights to do damage on the ground in aoe.
-Pull or push enemies with some items and weapons to make them fall from ledges and receive damage.
-Water interact with fire, cold and electricity damage in the way you would expect. Fire also interact with oil.

The variety is also superb for an action roguelite, a few examples of different builds you can do:
-You can try to max hp by balancing correctly your stats and take then the +50% hp mutation.
-You can try go full offensive by investing in only one stat (red/purple/green), killing everything in one or two hits but being a glass cannon.
-You can use a combination of stuns like frost blow and heavy melee weapons.
-Or quick weapons like the dagger or the gauntlets and try to interrupt their attacks, rolling to avoid any enemies.
-or you can use shields to block damage, parrying hits and even returning projectiles.
-You can use ranged weapons, like bows that have to be fired on the precise moment, or that do extra damage at long or close range.
-Or find a great combo with the random affixes for the weapons and items, that for example apply bleed, poison and fire all at the same time.
-Maybe you prefer to use two turrets and let them kill everything for you while you try to stat at the optimal range.
-Some items are interesting for the defensive ways they ca be used, like the explosive decoy that makes you invisible or the Wings of the crow that allow for limited floating around.

Finally, it has the best group of enemies in a game from the last years. Each one has a clear gameplay niche that isn't covered by any other one. They all have different attack patterns, and special abilities.
There are enemies that:
-attack you in melee, leaps (zombie)
-attack you with ranged weapons (archer)
-throw cluster or normal explosives (bombardier, grenadier)
-have ranged attack that goes through walls. (inquisitor)
-have a chained attack combo (slasher)
-make a dash charge against you (bat)
-fly around (bat, corpse fly, etC)
-explodes in close proximity to you (kamikaze)
-teleports close to you (Runner)
-teelports you close to him (golem)
-have a wide aoe attack (tornado knight, mushroom)
-spawns more enemies by itself (Hammer)
-can bury on ground (Scorpion)
-spawn explosives on death, or spawn more enemies on death (purulent zombie, worm)
-have a side that deals damage to you if you melee them (Thorny) or have an invulnerable side (shield zombie)
-make other enemies invulnerable (dummy enemy)
-Makes enemies invisible (fog guy)

Hell, I think lots of other roguelikes or even normal action or action rpg games could learn a bit from Dead Cells in how important is to have truly different enemies to mix up the action.
 

PeterVenkman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,778
Dead Cells is one of my favorite games of all time. Others have explained this more in depth, but the game's minute to minute feels fantastic. It's a combination of speed boosts on kills, rally damage to recover health, and the constant buying of items to create a build.

I have the most fun going into a run without a build in mind. Piecing together weapons and items that develop an unexpected synergy is endlessly fun. Any boredom I have of basic challenge early levels is quickly negated because of how fun the builds are for me.

Or just speedrun the early level - the game encourages that too.
 
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Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,523
Don't be so defensive to a game as to insult the OP on their person for criticising when a game is not challenging enough in their opinion.

I think you're defending me here so, thanks. But Dead Cells is actually plenty challenging enough for me, it's just not a varied challenge and I feel that you become accustomed to the first few stages far sooner than you beat the game.

I don't really see the problem here to be honest, of course you will figure out how to fight the early bosses since you will face them way more often. the first time I fought the Bridge-boss he destroyed me so figuring the guy out and being able to beat him without getting hit was super rewarding to me.

I really don't understand what mean here. The first level in Isaac is always the same, the game doesn't get really crazy until much later on - which is exactly what you criticize Dead Cells for. When I played Enter the Gungeon the first levels were by far the worst since you had to fight the same enemies again and again but with a really uninteresting weapon. The starting weapons in EtG are abysmally boring. Maybe they changed that later on, that I don't know. So what is it that makes death in Enter the Gungeon encouraging (leaving aside the question whether dying should actually feel rewarding) but not in Dead Cells?

In Gungeon, when you die you get helix credits to spend on new items, and it also tells you you've unlocked all these extra things that have been added to the gungeon. It's a small, but worthwhile encouragement that Dead Cells doesn't have. Typically, a failed run ends up adding between 2 and 5 items to the gungeon, especially early on.

This is just my opinion but I think Dead Cells would be a much more addictive game if I had cells to spend at the end of a run. This would give players a reason to buy something and try something new.

So just because you are reminded in Gungeon the next run will be different, is it better? Lol, what do you want, a text on screen literally saying 'next turn will be different!'. It has procedural generation of levels, of course it will be different, who cares if there a message that says it or not.
And Dead Cells runs vary wildly, more than Gungeon or Isaac.

My general issue is that it won't be different, or at least not that different early on. It's interesting that you feel Dead Cells is more varied, because as I see, it Gungeon has
  • vastly more room layouts
  • 10 times the number of enemies to encounter
  • more than 10 times the number of items/weapons
It's a different game though, I appreciate that, the weapons are doing different things. If you don't like twin stick / bullet hell, then you might not appreciate how things are different.

In any case, I didn't intend to make this thread about Gungeon. It has its own issues and I think the starter weapons being boring to use are one of those issues.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,922
I beat Dead Cells up to it's last difficulty, but still feel like the game left me meh. Honestly, I couldn't stop thinking about Rogue Legacy and how much more fun I had with it.
 
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Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,523
Finally, it has the best group of enemies in a game from the last years. Each one has a clear gameplay niche that isn't covered by any other one. They all have different attack patterns, and special abilities.
There are enemies that:
-attack you in melee, leaps (zombie)
-attack you with ranged weapons (archer)
-throw cluster or normal explosives (bombardier, grenadier)
-have ranged attack that goes through walls. (inquisitor)
-have a chained attack combo (slasher)
-make a dash charge against you (bat)
-fly around (bat, corpse fly, etC)
-explodes in close proximity to you (kamikaze)
-teleports close to you (Runner)
-teelports you close to him (golem)
-have a wide aoe attack (tornado knight, mushroom)
-spawns more enemies by itself (Hammer)
-can bury on ground (Scorpion)
-spawn explosives on death, or spawn more enemies on death (purulent zombie, worm)
-have a side that deals damage to you if you melee them (Thorny) or have an invulnerable side (shield zombie)
-make other enemies invulnerable (dummy enemy)
-Makes enemies invisible (fog guy)

I agree that the enemies are well designed. Most enemies exist for a reason and I even think the first stage is well crafted, it teaches you everything you need to know about the game. With one enemy that can block attacks, one enemy that shoots projectiles, another that will melee you, and another that can shoot through walls. These are effectively an archetypal model of all of the other enemies in the game.

It's a well designed, discrete tutorial stage which I think would benefit from being more varied for long-term players.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
In Gungeon, when you die you get helix credits to spend on new items, and it also tells you you've unlocked all these extra things that have been added to the gungeon. It's a small, but worthwhile encouragement that Dead Cells doesn't have. Typically, a failed run ends up adding between 2 and 5 items to the gungeon, especially early on.

This is just my opinion but I think Dead Cells would be a much more addictive game if I had cells to spend at the end of a run. This would give players a reason to buy something and try something new.
But you can spend cells during a run? what made it addictive for me is that "Oh god, I have so many cells right now I can't die oh god, oh god, oh god" feeling. If there were no stakes to it it would completely kill the fun and tension of the runs for me.
 
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Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,523
But you can spend cells during a run? what made it addictive for me is that "Oh god, I have so many cells right now I can't die oh god, oh god, oh god" feeling. If there were no stakes to it it would completely kill the fun and tension of the runs for me.

I never really felt that personally. I don't really worry or expect death in this game. That's not to say that I don't die, but I think because the level of challenge is generally quite constant, I didn't find myself worrying about the cells. I would only think about it when I was dead.

I think a big part of that comes down to how successful builds tend to focus on minimising risk and killing enemies before they can attack.
 

Phabh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,734
Never was interested in rogue-lites-likes but since I'm enjoying Downwell very much, I'm wondering if I'll like this as well.
Downwell have that arcade feel, combo system and short play sessions going for it.
Dead Cells has a longer play cycle so maybe I won't enjoy it as much, I don't know.
 
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