I watched Hustlers, by and large I enjoyed it but there's something I found really disturbing. (mild spoilers i guess)

[Deleted member 8861]

...Why is spiking people's drinks (with MDMA and ketamine at that) in a strip club not depicted as a form of sexual abuse in this movie, especially when the victims (e: technically protagonists as well) are deliberately there for sexual purposes? The moment you drug someone in such a situation it becomes something coercive and I doubt the sexual side of the situation immediately got shut off the moment someone drank the spiked drink.

They ultimately took advantage of someone's sexuality, for one. Furthermore, whose word do we have that nothing sexual happened to the men who were there? The very women who drugged them?

I'm especially concerned because the movie's apparently (half?) based on a true story.

Another reason this really disturbed me was that the movie comes close to acknowledging the fact that men's reports of sexual abuse go unnoticed- the whole scene with the pizza eating cop is the best example- but this feels hollow (e: not even hollow but outright backhanded) in light of what happened in the movie.

 

[Deleted member 6949]

They needed new fur coats.

 

[Snack12367]

It was one of my complaints about the movie as well. The movie vilified these men largely and while I'm not sure what happened would be classed as sexual assault, as opposed to assault, the film doesn't do a good job flipping the coin. Even the last guy, is kind of laughed at in the film.

 

[Dice]

Another reason this really disturbed me was that the movie comes close to acknowledging the fact that men's reports of sexual abuse go unnoticed- the whole scene with the pizza eating cop is the best example- but this feels hollow in light of what happened in the movie.

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That's sorta the point. Of course women would get off (sorry) on this easier because they are sexual women whose "victims" are men. Way too often media makes light or ignores of male sexual assault because people largely don't take male sexual assault serious --- especially among Men™ who loooove getting laid.

The movie IIRC didn't show them actually sexually assaulting them other than doping them and taking advantage of..the sexually charged-environment (please stop me if I'm wrong). The hustlers were never in the right, but part of the point was to expose the double-standard we have when women commit this sort of crime versus men. But also, while there's little doubt a male version of this sort of story can/has happened in some proximity, but when women (an incredibly over-sexualized gender compared to men) take advantage of people in a "sleazy place", our world has institutionalized how "severe" such a crimes are treated inside these places.

Recommended watching if you havent seen it yet:

....and I doubt the sexual side of the situation immediately got shut off the moment someone drank the spiked drink.

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Eeeh, that can be presumptuous. Most women aren't stripping (or are generally involved in the sex trade) because it's a dream job; I also feel you're being a bit vague to what's being implied here. IIRC the film was more exclusively about them doing some glorified robbing than trying to get themselves wet.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

That's sorta the point. Of course women would get off (sorry) on this easier because they are sexual women whose "victims" * are men. Way too often media makes light or ignores of male sexual assault because people largely don't take male sexual assault serious --- especially among Men™ who loooove getting laid.

The movie IIRC didn't show them actually sexually assaulting them other than doping them and taking advantage of..the sexually charged environment (please stop me if Im wrong). The hustlers were never in the right, but the point is to expose the double-standard we have when women commit this sort of crime versus men; especially because of the circumstances around it.

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I can't buy the movie doing that as some sort of meta-narrative point though. The movie is straight up about the perpetrators and the relationships they had among themselves- that's why the ending is a 15-minute misty-eyed sequence of Destiny talking about Rhonda and Rhonda talking about Destiny.

The movie... never really explored the consequences of what the hustlers did, and they themselves knew that their victims couldn't call the police, so who the fuck are we to know if they were abused?

Also, would anyone really take a bunch of men on their word if they said they repeatedly drugged women in a sexually charged environment in order to lower their inhibitions but didn't actually rape them?

Stripping is a sexual thing and requires mutual consent, the thing is, men can just walk out if they don't want any more- usually. I don't see how "taking advantage of the sexually charged environment", in itself, doesn't lie between sexual harassment and outright assault in terms of severity, even if we could be sure that's all that happened.

 

[olag]

The movie presents these actions as sort of "taking back control" for the women which is understandable given that the stripper/prostitution/porn industries regularly take advantage of women in desperate situations a lot of the time.

Unfortunately this has created an image that pretty much all men who take part in these industries are sexual predators who deserve to be swindled, conned and taken advantage of. In effect, you're not supposed to feel sorry for these men cause they could be/are absolutely horrible human beings.

This kinda feeds into the various conversations of how society treats both men and women who work within these industries, how it treats both men and women who hire these services and the double standards applied ie women being able to get away with a lot more shit when they hassle people, but also how I've noticed male porn stars are actually able to have a relatively normal off set life due to significantly less harassment than women.

I'm getting off tangent sorry. Point is yes its absolutely disgusting how the authorities ignore male assault and yes these needs to be highlighted , but there are definitely gonna be a lot of conversations which need to happen to progress that issue.

 

[Dice]

The movie present these actions as sort of "taking back control" for the women which is understandable given that the stripper/prostitution/porn industries regularly take advantage of women in desperate situations a lot of the time.

Unfortunately this has created an image that pretty much all men who take part in these industries are sexual predators who deserve to be swindled, conned and taken advantage of. In effect, you're not supposed to feel sorry for these men cause they could be/are absolutely horrible human beings.

This kinda feeds into the various conversations of how society treats both men and women who work within these industries, how it treats both men and women who hire these services and the double standards applied ie women being able to get away with a lot more shit when they hassle people, but also how I've noticed male porn stars are actually able to have a relatively normal off set life due to significantly less harassment than women.

I'm getting off tangent sorry. Point is yes its absolutely disgusting how the authorities ignore male assault and yes these needs to be highlighted , but there are definitely gonna be a lot of conversations which need to happen to progress that issue.

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way better put than me, well said

 

[Deleted member 6949]

The movie present these actions as sort of "taking back control" for the women which is understandable given that the stripper/prostitution/porn industries regularly take advantage of women in desperate situations a lot of the time.

Unfortunately this has created an image that pretty much all men who take part in these industries are sexual predators who deserve to be swindled, conned and taken advantage of. In effect, you're not supposed to feel sorry for these men cause they could be/are absolutely horrible human beings.

This kinda feeds into the various conversations of how society treats both men and women who work within these industries, how it treats both men and women who hire these services and the double standards applied ie women being able to get away with a lot more shit when they hassle people, but also how I've noticed male porn stars are actually able to have a relatively normal off set life due to significantly less harassment than women.

I'm getting off tangent sorry. Point is yes its absolutely disgusting how the authorities ignore male assault and yes these needs to be highlighted , but there are definitely gonna be a lot of conversations which need to happen to progress that issue.

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They aren't even targeting the customers of the strip club. They pick them up at bars and bring them there.

 

[shaneo632]

I thought the film towed the line pretty well but yeah it's definitely a problematic part of the film. I feel like for the most part they weren't terribly likeable characters so it was fine but there is a clear "getting their own back" element to the narrative.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

Eeeh, that can be presumptuous. Most women aren't stripping (or are generally involved in the sex trade) because it's a dream job; I also feel you're being a bit vague to what's being implied here. IIRC the film was more exclusively about them doing some glorified robbing than trying to get themselves wet.

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I mean, that's fair, but how do you know nobody (say) got groped to elicit a reaction or anything?

My point is, if you have someone robbed of their capability to consent in a sexually charged situation and even though it's not outright rape, I don't see how abusing that inability to consent to exploit that drugged man's sexuality is not a sexual form of abuse as well as robbery.

Might be going off on a tangent myself, but when people say sexual abuse is fundamentally about power, that strikes me as true especially here. Yeah, the hustlers didn't get sex out of it, but they still used a sexual situation to coerce someone into doing something. I'd call that a form of sexual abuse.

Incidentally, thanks for the video. I've watched part of it, seems really good.

The movie present these actions as sort of "taking back control" for the women which is understandable given that the stripper/prostitution/porn industries regularly take advantage of women in desperate situations a lot of the time.

Unfortunately this has created an image that pretty much all men who take part in these industries are sexual predators who deserve to be swindled, conned and taken advantage of. In effect, you're not supposed to feel sorry for these men cause they could be/are absolutely horrible human beings.

This kinda feeds into the various conversations of how society treats both men and women who work within these industries, how it treats both men and women who hire these services and the double standards applied ie women being able to get away with a lot more shit when they hassle people, but also how I've noticed male porn stars are actually able to have a relatively normal off set life due to significantly less harassment than women.

I'm getting off tangent sorry. Point is yes its absolutely disgusting how the authorities ignore male assault and yes these needs to be highlighted , but there are definitely gonna be a lot of conversations which need to happen to progress that issue.

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I fully agree with you.

However, to me, in this movie the "taking back control" angle straight-up overwrote the entire angle about how... drugging people to exploit their sexuality into giving up their money is actually a disgusting and terrifying thing to do.

Like, they "took back control" by being abusers (of a less severe caliber, perhaps) than themselves. As Destiny put it, "hurt people hurt people", but this movie really came off to me as dismissing what happened to the people 'hurt by hurt people', hell, even the reason they got caught up in a sting in the first place was because of the money trail and not the fact that drugging people to bring them to strip clubs isn't extremely rife for abuse, and a nonconsensual sexual activity.

Especially once they started to trade designer clothes for Christmas in designer condos, the entire "reclaiming control/being independent" angle fell out to the wayside for me, because at that point you just have a story of abusers, and yet the narrative refused to shift.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Midsommer had the same problem. A man is literally drugged and raped in that film and it's not framed as rape at all.

As usual, mainstream media ignores and denies male rape

 

[Penny Royal]

I've got to say...how fucked do you have to already be not to notice how AWFUL a drink that's had MDMA or ket poured into it? I've diluted MDMA in drinks before (and FWIW it doesn't dissolve properly either so you end up with powder sludge in your drink) and it tastes dreadful.

 

[Deleted member 6949]

I thought the film towed the line pretty well but yeah it's definitely a problematic part of the film. I feel like for the most part they weren't terribly likeable characters so it was fine but there is a clear "getting their own back" element to the narrative.

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At one point the reporter literally says something like "I have no sympathy for these men"

 

[shintoki]

Enjoyed the hell out of it, but it was one of the most problematic movies of the year. The movie even says, fuck them dudes. While they drug em, kidnap em, rob them, gaslight em, then glorify the lifestyle while completely hand waving their crimes while continually showing them as the real sympathetic victims.

 

[Neece]

At one point the reporter literally says something like "I have no sympathy for these men"

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Yup. If the comedic framing done in the movie wasn't enough to tell the audience how they should feel about what the women were doing, I believe the line by the reporter tipped it over. Fuck these guys, celebrate the sisterhood (even though in real life these women weren't besties like the film suggests).

Even at the end when Constance Wu's character feels a bit of remorse over the guy that lost everything, you can tell that scene existed solely to humanize Wu and contrast her with Jennifer Lopez's character so they can have a dramatic falling out, rather than it really being about the men that were affected by any of this.

 

[shintoki]

Yup. If the comedic framing done in the movie wasn't enough to tell the audience how they should feel, I believe the line by the reporter tipped it over.

Even at the end when Constance Wu's character feels a bit of remorse over the guy that lost everything, you can tell that scene existed solely to humanize Wu and contrast her with Jennifer Lopez's character so they can have a dramatic falling out, rather than it really being about the men that were affected by any of this.

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Wu's character is always painted as a victim for the audience to latch on too, alongside Lopez getting her redemption at the end.

 

[StrangeRoboMemory]

The film was odd because the characters do this really gross shit as you point out, and are almost completely unlikable (Wu especially, J. Lo less so), but the film champions them and tries to get away with some "it was out of my control" type moments right on the heels of "I was making bank and loving it" type moments. It's not an awful film and there are some excellent scenes, but the praise this got on release was way overblown.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

At one point the reporter literally says something like "I have no sympathy for these men"

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The protagonist, Destiny, who has entire control for the framing for almost all of the story, at one point gets angry at the reporter for getting 'caught up' on the serial drugging, and it's the reporter who ends up apologizing.

The whole portrayal of this seems to be an edge case trying to earnestly make the argument "Is retributive sexual violence okay now? Is it okay now? Is it okay now?".

Like, if they'd approached this case from a more neutral angle and portrayed the hustlers as also abusers, and made the story about how those abusers came to be and what they did, like a documentary, I might've really liked it.

But what it actually is is very little more than a realized feminist media strawman an MRA would create-- I went into it expecting a "gurl power" kind of narrative, and that's what I got mostly... at the expense of minimizing (sexual) abuse of men.

 

[Masoyama]

Yeah, sure, but I just don't care about what happens to these men. They can get robbed of everything they own and thrown naked into a pit and I would still cheer for Constance and JLo

 

[Elderly Parrot]

Midsommer had the same problem. A man is literally drugged and raped in that film and it's not framed as rape at all.

As usual, mainstream media ignores and denies male rape

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And some posters were like that's not rape Even though it clearly was

 

[olag]

However, to me, in this movie the "taking back control" angle straight-up overwrote the entire angle about how... drugging people to exploit their sexuality into giving up their money is actually a disgusting and terrifying thing to do.

Like, they "took back control" by being abusers (of a less severe caliber, perhaps) than themselves. As Destiny put it, "hurt people hurt people", but this movie really came off to me as dismissing what happened to the people 'hurt by hurt people', hell, even the reason they got caught up in a sting in the first place was because of the money trail and not the fact that drugging people to bring them to strip clubs isn't extremely rife for abuse, and a nonconsensual sexual activity.

Especially once they started to trade designer clothes for Christmas in designer condos, the entire "reclaiming control/being independent" angle fell out to the wayside for me, because at that point you just have a story of abusers, and yet the narrative refused to shift.

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Oh I definitely agree. From what I can recall from the movie, there were parts where I was genuinely uncomfortable because ofcoarse male assault is "hilarious" and ofcoarse its made fun of because you got robbed in a strip club, your not a good person obviously.

This is pretty much in line with your typical rags to riches film. You got your underdogs who you supposed to root for until they inevitably fuck themselves over or go too far. I think the narrative refused to shift because it was being told from their perspective however unlike other mob films the story doesn't want to admit and commit to these guys being reprehensible human beings thus it largely focuses on the "taking back control/payback" angle and things spiraling out of control for the likable protagonist.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Yeah, sure, but I just don't care about what happens to these men. They can get robbed of everything they own and thrown naked into a pit and I would still cheer for Constance and JLo

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At best this response is incredibly tone deaf. This thread is a discussion about male rape/abuse not being taken seriously, and you come in here saying the film could've depicted even worse abuse and you wouldnt care. Gross.

And some posters were like that's not rape Even though it clearly was

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Yup, because people are conditioned to minimize and ignore male rape and abuse.

 

[Z-Beat]

They go that Cardi B route in the movie?

 

[Deleted member 6949]

Yeah, sure, but I just don't care about what happens to these men. They can get robbed of everything they own and thrown naked into a pit and I would still cheer for Constance and JLo

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jackass

 

[ElBoxy]

At one point the reporter literally says something like "I have no sympathy for these men"

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The men they're talking about are the Wall Street rich guys who are simplified as assholes throughout the movie, with the exception of one. Of course the movie was going to side with the women who had everything to lose. They spend like 10 minutes telling you how these rich dudes robbed the entire country. I think of it as a lesser of two evils kind of thing.

 

[Neece]

The men they're talking about are the Wall Street rich guys who are simplified as assholes throughout the movie, with the exception of one. Of course the movie was going to side with the women who had everything to lose. They spend like 10 minutes telling you how these rich dudes robbed the entire country. I think of it as a lesser of two evils kind of thing.

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The movie didn't really have to take a hard lean to any side. I think it would have been more interesting if it didn't go out of the way to frame the story so simplistically, or going for the "sisterhood" (invented for the film) angle as the bond between the two main characters rather than straight up hustling.

 

[Deleted member 6949]

The men they're talking about are the Wall Street rich guys who are simplified as assholes throughout the movie, with the exception of one. Of course the movie was going to side with the women who had everything to lose. They spend like 10 minutes telling you how these rich dudes robbed the entire country. I think of it as a lesser of two evils kind of thing.

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They just go into bars and look for men with nice clothes. That's all they know about them.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

Yeah, sure, but I just don't care about what happens to these men. They can get robbed of everything they own and thrown naked into a pit and I would still cheer for Constance and JLo

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That kind of attitude is what gets male victims of sexual violence laughed at

 

[ElBoxy]

The movie didn't really have to take a hard lean to any side. I think it would have been more interesting if it didn't go out of the way to frame the story so simplistically, or going for the "sisterhood" (invented for the film) angle as the bond between the two main characters rather than straight up hustling.

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The family aspect is the movie's strongest feature. It's how they could humanize the strippers.

They just go into bars and look for men with nice clothes. That's all they know about them.

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The most you can say is it doesn't have sympathy for the rich, which some people can care less about them in today's environment.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

The most you can say is it doesn't have sympathy for the rich, which some people can care less about them in today's environment.

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Or that, you know, it justifies (arguably retributive) sexual violence enacted on men by depicting them as people who would've consented (to being taken to a strip club, a sexual act) anyway

This argument falls off the moment the hustlers start to trade designer clothing for Christmas, anyhow.

 

[Neece]

The family aspect is the movie's strongest feature. It's how they could humanize the strippers.

The most you can say is it doesn't have sympathy for the rich, which some people can care less about them in today's environment.

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The "family" angle made the story less interesting to me. Even before I knew the actual story, it felt manufactured and fake to me, like generic Hollywood characterization. When I looked it up fter I left the theater and saw this

Ramona and Dorothy are closer in the movie than Roselyn and Samantha are IRL

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On-screen, the 'hustlers' frequently refer to each other as 'sisters' and 'family'. This is especially evident in the mother-daughter-esque relationship between Ramona and Dorothy, who, without giving away any spoilers, share a fairly intense scene towards the end of the movie that proves their dedication to one another.

In real life? They reportedly weren't the best of friends, according to an interview with Keo featured in Vulture, and were just co-conspirators in their scheme.

Keo followed up this sentiment in another interview for The Oprah Magazine, where she revealed that she wished Dorothy had "beat [Ramona's] ass" at the end of the movie.

In the same interview, she went on to say "she [Barbash] has a strong character and personality, and so do I. We're both alpha females that never stepped to each other. If we had to, we would, but it never came to that."

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https://www.elle.com.au/culture/hustlers-true-story-22410

All I could think about was how much more interested it would have been to see the characterization displayed in that article rather than what I saw on screen.

Also, the fact that the manufactured friendship is the movies strongest feature is part of the problem in the first place. Why isn't an exploration of such a unique premise a stronger element?

 

[BioDigital Jazzman]

They go that Cardi B route in the movie?

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People just laughed it off when Cardi admitted to actually sleeping with the drugged men in real life

 

[FreezePeach]

I legit was wondering while watching this 'wait, why is this movie treating these women as empowered heroes while they drug and rob people? I mean they could end of killing someone!' Sure in the end they basically get caught and people know it's wrong but the majority tone of the movie was basically celebrating these awful awful women.

 

[Carnby]

And some posters were like that's not rape Even though it clearly was

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Some here even admit to laughing at the scene.

Fuck Midsommar.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

I legit was wondering while watching this 'wait, why is this movie treating these women as empowered heroes while they drug and rob people? I mean they could end of killing someone!' Sure in the end they basically get caught and people know it's wrong but the majority tone of the movie was basically celebrating these awful awful women.

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That's the entire fucking tone, the movie spends 10-ish minutes on the ramifications of their actions and then the end is still "Dorothy you should call up Ramona uwu".

Not to mention they almost did kill a couple people, in the film.

 

[ElBoxy]

Or that, you know, it justifies (arguably retributive) sexual violence enacted on men by depicting them as people who would've consented (to being taken to a strip club, a sexual act) anyway

This argument falls off the moment the hustlers start to trade designer clothing for Christmas, anyhow.

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Cuz J.Lo's character got too greedy and mentally abusive.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

Cuz J.Lo's character got too greedy and mentally abusive.

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Nah, not just that, this is some toxic ass bullshit

 

[Glenn]

The movie isn't painting the woman as good guys though. A lot of people compared this movie to Goodfellas. It's the same thing.

Killing people is obviously wrong, yet we still root for the protagonist

 

[Deleted member 6949]

The movie isn't painting the woman as good guys though. A lot of people compared this movie to Goodfellas. It's the same thing.

Killing people is obviously wrong, yet we still root for the protagonist

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It's like Blow if you took out the part at the end where Johnny Depp has a potbelly.

 

[ElBoxy]

Nah, not just that, this is some toxic ass bullshit

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That is what happened. She pushed the gang to mess with all the rich dudes she thought deserved it and they got caught by someone who really didn't deserve it.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

The movie isn't painting the woman as good guys though. A lot of people compared this movie to Goodfellas. It's the same thing.

Killing people is obviously wrong, yet we still root for the protagonist

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Its kinda like Goodfellas, if the director was *really* rooting for the protagonists and kept finding excuses for their behavior. Even the professional journalist Julia Stiles is on their side as the REAL victims. Even the credits are like "Dont worry ya'll, they got parole and they're just fine!" They dont even interrogate the ethics of their actions. Its just "FUCK those guys!" and thats it. The dramatic conflict in the second half is "awwww J Lo and Constance Wu may not be friends anymore :(", instead of, ya know, the drug/date rape stuff???

but girl power or whatever

 

[HeavenlyOne]

Rendering someone unconscious for the purpose of stealing their money is not sexual assault.