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Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,209
UK
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Essay by Mona Eltahawy on Feminist Giant.

Patriarchy is an overwhelming issue on top of the sport, violence, alcohol, toxic gender norms, misogyny, and entitlement.

"It is not football that makes cisgender men abuse women and children. It is not the alcohol those men readily consume while watching football that makes them hurt women and children. And win, lose or draw, the score doesn't make a man beat a woman. Patriarchy does."

Relevant statistics:
During lockdown, Refuge logged a 61 percent surge in calls to its domestic abuse helpline in England. In Italy, women who could not call a helpline or directly report domestic abuse to the police could call a police emergency number and say: "I'd like to order a margarita pizza" which would alert the operator to send round a patrol.​
...

Moreover, researchers from UK's Lancaster University who analysed domestic violence figures from England's games in the 2002, 2006 and 2010 World Cup found that incidents of domestic abuse were 11 percent higher the day after an England match.​
More alarmingly: incidents of domestic abuse rose by 38 percent when the England team lost and increased by 26 percent where England won or drew, compared with days when there was no England match.​
...
Whether England is the home of football or not matters little to women and children whose abusers make home hell after major football games. It is a hell that decreases by 5 percent during the 2-hour duration of the game, but that starts increasing and peaks about ten hours after the game, researchers at the London School of Economics Centre for Economic Performance found. They examined eight years of call and crime data from Greater Manchester police, correlating with the timing of almost 800 games played by Manchester United and Manchester City between April 2012 and June 2019.​
The researchers say that "all increases are driven by perpetrators that had consumed alcohol, and when games were played before 7pm,"; games which start during the day give supporters more time to drink.​
As useful as it is to know all of that, it is imperative to resist the temptation of thinking that simply moving all football games to evening start times will end domestic abuse associated with games. The starting time of games is the trees. We must stay focused on the forest: patriarchy.​
...
During the 2014 and 2018 World Cups, cases of intimate-partner violence against women rose by an average of 38 percent and 25 percent respectively when Colombia played. And by nearly 50 percent during the 2015 Copa America, compared to days when Colombia did not play. Colombia won third place in this year's Copa America tournament.​
Abusive men will abuse you whether their team wins or loses or draws, whether there is a lockdown or not, because it is about the abuser and about the ways patriarchy enables and protects his belief that he is entitled to control you. As lockdowns are being lifted in Europe, there has been a resurgence of deadly violence against women as abusers experience a "loss of the control" they enjoyed throughout the coronavirus lockdowns.​

Violence isn't just towards women:

The violence that goes home with the men's game is a wholly-owned subsidiary of patriarchy. You would be naive to think that such violence is limited to women and children. It is what fuels the boos when players take a knee and the racial abuse yelled at Black and players of colour; it is what fuels homophobic chants that are brushed off as "jokes." Misogyny is not patriarchy's sole crime.​
How when we know that at least 10 percent of any population belongs to the LGBTQ+ community, is there not a single out player in the men's top leagues while the women's game has a long history of openly gay players?​
Patriarchy. That's how.​
What men can learn from women and LBGTQIA+ friendly competitions:
If queer is the opposite of heteronormativity, the queerest--and joyously so--sporting environment I've witnessed were the Women's World Cup matches in Montreal in 2015.​
There were no reports of abuse going home after the matches; no campaigns that warned that "If England is beaten, so is he,"; and the players on the pitch were there to play, not engage in bombastic flops and fake injuries.​
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Dec 2, 2017
20,656
If our terrible team ever lost when i was a child (they usually did as they were and are a terrible team) i always got a kicking from our dad when they lost. Or I'd be left outside a pub while he went in to drown his sorrows. Or as often happened if it was an away game, he'd get so drunk he couldn't stand, or get into a fight, and the police would drag him away and I'd be a child on my own in a city i didn't know well. Then people act like I'm just being stupid when i say i fucking despise this game.
 

Kyari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,851
Can confirm, as someone working in the public sector where this particular thing would be reflected, this is a very real problem
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,202
If our terrible team ever lost when i was a child (they usually did as they were and are a terrible team) i always got a kicking from our dad when they lost. Or I'd be left outside a pub while he went in to drown his sorrows. Or as often happened if it was an away game, he'd get so drunk he couldn't stand, or get into a fight, and the police would drag him away and I'd be a child on my own in a city i didn't know well. Then people act like I'm just being stupid when i say i fucking despise this game.
Damn dude thats terrible.
I hate football becuse its a boring as fuck game. But you got a better reason than me.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,303
A friend of ours is a teacher and they've been told to be double vigilant looking out for abused kids when then go back to school this week because of the football.

Shocking state of affairs.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
If our terrible team ever lost when i was a child (they usually did as they were and are a terrible team) i always got a kicking from our dad when they lost. Or I'd be left outside a pub while he went in to drown his sorrows. Or as often happened if it was an away game, he'd get so drunk he couldn't stand, or get into a fight, and the police would drag him away and I'd be a child on my own in a city i didn't know well. Then people act like I'm just being stupid when i say i fucking despise this game.
terrible experience, I am sorry you had to endure those traumas as a child. It could not have been easy.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,209
UK


Having the match be at 8pm didn't do anything to reduce full on stupidity and violence by breaking windows, throwing bottles around, making a whole mess of Leicester Square, and possibly get into fights. The group mentality and alcohol were probably some of the factors fueling this nonsense.
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,568
That is shocking and terrible, mostly shocking in that I live in a country where football (soccer) isn't a big deal we don't get huge groups for it like depicted here. I wonder how true this is of all professional sports - NFL, NHL, NBA, etc.
The underlying point of that essay holds true for several reasons, this is disgutingly among them.
 

OtakuCoder

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,384
UK
I remember hearing similar stuff about the Old Firm derby (Rangers vs Celtic). It's just awful.
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,922
blogs.lse.ac.uk

The link between England football victories and the recorded increase in alcohol-related domestic abuse is likely to be causal

Anna Trendl writes that, while the exact mechanism by which national football victories lead to an increase in the number of domestic abuse cases is complex, the evidence shows that alcohol plays a…

_This was the conclusion of a study published in 2014, which found that reported cases of intimate partner violence increased by 38% when England lost and by 26% when they won or drew in the tournament._


This shit is heartbreaking.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Chauvanist nationalism is bad. I can tolerate it if everyone agrees it's just a game but when they can't...



I have always considered sport as a peacetime proxy for war, recent events have not changed this perception.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
This is the only reason I didn't want England to lose, all that anger which is going to be taken out on families.

Fuck this sport and the fans who take it way too seriously
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,712
I saw very specific analysis on this related to alcohol consumption, time of game in the day, score at half time etc. Fucking depressing.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,209
UK
This is the only reason I didn't want England to lose, all that anger which is going to be taken out on families.

Fuck this sport and the fans who take it way too seriously
It is scary how much people can tie themselves to a sport like a religion and they'll project their violence on others.
 

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,626
Worth noting I got banned from here for mentioning this during the world cup in 2018. Have no idea how or why. I emailed asking why and it never got lifted. Was a 3 day ban.

This is indeed a big issue and needs to be talked about more.
 

Ducarmel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,363
I would not be surprised if this was a thing for all major sports. I remember as a young kid on my block hearing some grim shit after a big game in the NBA or a big pro fight.

I think sports league should just suck it up and take some responsibility like limit alcohol sales to the first half of the game, run anti-violence ads during the game, and remind everybody its just a game.

Bars too, they do not help selling alcohol to these guys losing there shit over nothing.
 

n!smo

Member
Oct 16, 2020
25
User Banned (3 Days): Ableist language
This is the only reason I didn't want England to lose, all that anger which is going to be taken out on families.

Fuck this sport and the fans who take it way too seriously

That ist no reason to give in to those fucktards. The issues lay deeper, beginning with the excessive alcohol consumption. They will find something else to get angry about.
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,534
This is a strong reason why I hold little "pride" in my country, for people to act like this because of football (Or more broadly speaking, sports) is shameful.

So much damn anger in men, what the heck can be done to solve this? Trying to tackle the problem directly leads to scorn or accusations of being a traitor, or worse you get physically attacked.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,740
DFW
It's many sports that drive this mentality, unfortunately.
Would be interesting to see cross-sectional research. I'm sure that the NFL in the USA is the "worst" sport, but I'm curious how basketball and baseball compare. Wonder if it could adjust for popularity too. Put another way, are some sports more toxicity-friendly than others? I think it's obviously yes due to the culture surrounding them, but I'd like to see the differences and how they've changed over time.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,490
blogs.lse.ac.uk

The link between England football victories and the recorded increase in alcohol-related domestic abuse is likely to be causal

Anna Trendl writes that, while the exact mechanism by which national football victories lead to an increase in the number of domestic abuse cases is complex, the evidence shows that alcohol plays a…




This shit is heartbreaking.

This is why I hate football I've seen it personally, some men are fucking animals.
 

Blent

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,174
East Midlands, England, UK
English football fan culture has a ugly side that is far too large and it's just accepted as a part of our national identity

It's why I just can't bring myself to find joy in football anymore
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,308
It's particularly raw and maddening to read this article right as England has lost and knowing it will only prove this true.
 
Jun 24, 2019
6,379
Thanks for bringing this into light. I do hate the rabid fan culture surrounding football, but from what I seen in the recent years, it calmed down...so as I thought.

It's a shame nothing had changed.
 

Syder

The Moyes are Back in Town
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
12,543
Historically, this talking point has been brought up to bait responses in the wake of sporting results. Due to the tribalistic fervor induced after sporting events, we feel this will not generate good discussion and hence it is locked, if you feel like having this discussion at a moment less likely to create a powderkeg of a thread it is extremely welcome due to the importance of the topic.
 

Syder

The Moyes are Back in Town
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
12,543
Due to the time this thread was originally posted we locked it due to the tone of the thread on the result and we did not want for people to weaponize this important topic in existing barbs and snipes at each other. Now that things have calmed down, we're opening the thread back up so that people can discuss this very important issue unimpeded by spillover from elsewhere.

Thank you for your patience.
 

microgreen

Member
Jun 24, 2020
364
Were some posts deleted or something? I don't really see any posts that are just for bait.

Anyway, sports culture really brings out the worst in people. I love watching some of it but I can't stand the toxic masculinity or jingoism it brings out in a lot of people.
 

Animus Vox

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,524
NYC
I was just thinking during the match last night that no matter which team won or lost, both cities are fucked due to celebration/loss. Never thought about the secondary effect to people who this might get taken out on and it's scary to even imagine. Some fans are truly passionate about this sport.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,209
UK
Historically, this talking point has been brought up to bait responses in the wake of sporting results. Due to the tribalistic fervor induced after sporting events, we feel this will not generate good discussion and hence it is locked, if you feel like having this discussion at a moment less likely to create a powderkeg of a thread it is extremely welcome due to the importance of the topic.
A thread about domestic violence statistics has been used to bait people after sporting results? I didn't even know the thread got locked until someone told me when I woke up. I just thought it was something to be aware of in regards to the sport and patriarchy at this time, it wasn't even a reaction thread made after the results to bait people to get angry and "weaponise" or trivialise the topic. 🤷🏾
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,295
I never go out to watch elite level sport any more - either live or on pubs/bars - because I hate the loutish culture around it. It has definitely got worse over the last 30 years, and I now find groups of "lads" out to watch the football incredibly intimidating because there's always an increased chance they're going to immediately cause issues.

And I'm a 6'2" white dude who played regional rugby and has the build to go with it. I can't imagine what its like for women.

Some of it is certainly a drink issue, but it can't be written off as that as some people would try to do - there's a massive cultural issue especially in the UK that some men just seem to have absolutely no emotional maturity and are so self centered they only care about their own sense of the world.

There's a reason why so many working class men in the UK are buying into the alt right bullshit Tory wankery and it's fucking terrifying to tbh.
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,986
I never knew things were that bad. I guess maybe it puts into perspective a work interaction from a few weeks ago. A girl made a joke about wasting 70 min watching nothing happen in one of the recent England games, then as soon as the team split up afterwards to do some work, a (usually mild mannered) guy started venting about how much of a b**** she is because of this one bad thing she said about football. Some guys take it way too seriously.
 

Tangyn

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,281
I never go out to watch elite level sport any more - either live or on pubs/bars - because I hate the loutish culture around it. It has definitely got worse over the last 30 years, and I now find groups of "lads" out to watch the football incredibly intimidating because there's always an increased chance they're going to immediately cause issues.

And I'm a 6'2" white dude who played regional rugby and has the build to go with it. I can't imagine what its like for women.

Some of it is certainly a drink issue, but it can't be written off as that as some people would try to do - there's a massive cultural issue especially in the UK that some men just seem to have absolutely no emotional maturity and are so self centered they only care about their own sense of the world.

There's a reason why so many working class men in the UK are buying into the alt right bullshit Tory wankery and it's fucking terrifying to tbh.
Yep very well said.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I never go out to watch elite level sport any more - either live or on pubs/bars - because I hate the loutish culture around it. It has definitely got worse over the last 30 years, and I now find groups of "lads" out to watch the football incredibly intimidating because there's always an increased chance they're going to immediately cause issues.

And I'm a 6'2" white dude who played regional rugby and has the build to go with it. I can't imagine what its like for women.

Some of it is certainly a drink issue, but it can't be written off as that as some people would try to do - there's a massive cultural issue especially in the UK that some men just seem to have absolutely no emotional maturity and are so self centered they only care about their own sense of the world.

There's a reason why so many working class men in the UK are buying into the alt right bullshit Tory wankery and it's fucking terrifying to tbh.
It's everything I hate about toxic masculinity, lad culture, tribalism and nationalism all rolled into one big fucked up mess. It's so ingrained in the culture that we will probably never get rid of it
 

Stencil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,386
USA
Jesus.

I mean, my initial thought was "it's just a game, how silly" but I suppose the entire point is that it's more deeply rooted than that. Be that as it may, I'll add this to my list of reasons why I don't much care for sports in general.

Abusive men will abuse you whether their team wins or loses or draws, whether there is a lockdown or not, because it is about the abuser and about the ways patriarchy enables and protects his belief that he is entitled to control you. As lockdowns are being lifted in Europe, there has been a resurgence of deadly violence against women as abusers experience a "loss of the control" they enjoyed throughout the coronavirus lockdowns.
Wow I hadn't thought about that.
 

Menome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,426
I never go out to watch elite level sport any more - either live or on pubs/bars - because I hate the loutish culture around it. It has definitely got worse over the last 30 years, and I now find groups of "lads" out to watch the football incredibly intimidating because there's always an increased chance they're going to immediately cause issues.

Whilst I don't follow any of the sports, I just do NOT go out if there's an England vs Scotland game of anything on that night. I love Scotland dearly, and I'm never leaving, but as I'm English-born, the last time I made that mistake back in 2006 I was just harassed all evening by a group of guys who heard my accent and kept jeering as though I was paying attention to what game was on and ruined the night out I was having with friends. There were then later reports of a group hanging around the student area I lived in, looking for English people to start fights with.
 

blaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
754
UK
That is shocking and terrible, mostly shocking in that I live in a country where football (soccer) isn't a big deal we don't get huge groups for it like depicted here. I wonder how true this is of all professional sports - NFL, NHL, NBA, etc.
The underlying point of that essay holds true for several reasons, this is disgutingly among them.

A few of these reports have come out across most sports, sadly it's not just a problem that relates to football but it's always important to bring this up again and again especially when big games like yesterday happens. The likes of the UK will have study groups doing good work on highlighting the problems, there will be many countries where that won't happen so it's difficult to determine the true picture - given the few studies we've had it's very likely going to look similar across all popular sports especially so for those which have a culture of drinking alcohol. Violent individual sports like boxing and MMA are also reported to trigger these kind of aggressive reactions in abusers.
 

Tangyn

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,281
Yea stuff like this sadly is well know in social work. I'm not looking forward to work this week one bit. Schools are closing this week too which will make it even worse.

It will be a busy day today that's for sure.