Same.
Is this like something you do while you say your name and something about yourself?
"I'm TheMango55, I love cooking, and I go by he/him"
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In a dilemma about Natalie Wynn's tweet about pronouns
- Thread starter Deleted member 46489
- Start date
Same.
Is this like something you do while you say your name and something about yourself?
"I'm TheMango55, I love cooking, and I go by he/him"
Sadly it doesn't realy work because of the social implications, it is pretty comparible to saying "it" in english.
I think the answer is to assume positive intent and move on. People's needs are at odds with each other, acceptance is less about rules and norms than it is about flexibilty and this goes both ways.
This is why people go stealth, even if you pass you're still not treated as an actual man or woman once people know you're Trans.
I'm not the biggest fan of CP for a lot of reasons, mostly because of their awful drag queen aesthetic and because they give off a lot of AGP vibes, which is a really bad look for the person who has become the defacto "transbassador" to the cis community. I'd almost rather have Blaire White in that role, as awful as most of her politics are.
But I do agree with them on this. The whole sharing your pronouns thing upon introduction is extremely cringeworthy and awkward, and its definitely alienating and isolating for passing Trans people, and potentially dangerous if they are deep stealth. What pronouns to use should be obvious based upon the person's general appearance and presentation. If people misgender you because you don't pass that's on you to fix somehow, and if you can't, then its probably time to consider other avenues for managing your dysphoria.
I'm not the biggest fan of CP for a lot of reasons, mostly because of their awful drag queen aesthetic and because they give off a lot of AGP vibes, which is a really bad look for the person who has become the defacto "transbassador" to the cis community. I'd almost rather have Blaire White in that role, as awful as most of her politics are.
But I do agree with them on this. The whole sharing your pronouns thing upon introduction is extremely cringeworthy and awkward, and its definitely alienating and isolating for passing Trans people, and potentially dangerous if they are deep stealth. What pronouns to use should be obvious based upon the person's general appearance and presentation. If people misgender you because you don't pass that's on you to fix somehow, and if you can't, then its probably time to consider other avenues for managing your dysphoria.
what the fuck is this bullshit
"as bad as her politics are"
fucking lol
I think its important for the primary faces of the Trans community to be highly passing and binary in order to signal hope to trans youth that it is possible to transition and look like a person of your desired gender, so that they do not needlessly repress until it is too late.
Blair is a shitty reactionary (although tbh I think she's more of a grifter than a true believer) but she unquestionably passes 100%. 10 years ago when I was a young kid there were no Nicole Maines or Hunter Schafers in the media, I had no idea it was possible to transition and pass as a woman until my late teens, at which point it was already too late.
Also Contrapoints is now they/them
Also the real trans ambassador
So perfect
User banned (permanent): extreme hostility
Fuck you. Go kill yourself
Yeah that's the main reason I don't like Blair. The fact that she's against minors transitioning is pretty unacceptable as that's the only way most will ever be able to pass as Cis.
She is right about Yaniv though. They're a terrible and disgusting person who deserves no respect whatsoever.
Maybe because I'm straight cis dude but the fuck does drag queen aesthetic mean for a trans woman
As a (femme-presenting, trans-femme/androgynous) nonbinary person who's mostly meh on their own pronouns and what gender they're referred to as, I'm still pretty bad at asking for pronouns and giving my own. Like, I am afraid of putting someone in the position Natalie was, and I'm nervous about introducing my own with every person I know is cis because then I have to explain how I'm fine with anything, even "he" though I don't want to be known as a man or them assuming some real dumb bullshit I don't have the patience to explain. And depending on when I'm out and how I'm presenting, I just wanna be "he" or "she" for my own safety and won't state my nb-Ness, or rather just roll with whatever I get slapped with
But then...there are certain people I may meet who I can't tell how they identify at a glance, and I will most like introduce mine and ask theirs, because I feel safe enough to do so, Buuuut I realize this is still kinda shitty because I'm doing things differently based on one's appearance
But then...there are certain people I may meet who I can't tell how they identify at a glance, and I will most like introduce mine and ask theirs, because I feel safe enough to do so, Buuuut I realize this is still kinda shitty because I'm doing things differently based on one's appearance
Honestly, this seems like a Catch-22. Either one draws attention to the trans person and their trans-ness or one doesn't and runs the risk of misgendering.
Although, really, I fail to see how socially well-adjusted people can fuck up a pronoun in most circumstances without actively trying to do so. Presumably, in the hypothetical scenario that someone 'doesn't pass', it's still self-evident what their gender identity is. And if it isn't, just ask. The idea of some sort of group naming ritual strikes me as more exclusionary than anything else.
There are trans drag queens. Miss Peppermint, Jiggly Caliente, Gia Gunn... and those are just the one's who have been on Drag Race. Wynn has referred to her own on screen looks as drag.
That's because it IS a catch-22.
The trans experience is the most damning evidence of gender as a spectrum we have in the modern age, and that is reflected perfectly in how easily the trans community eats itself regarding generalities and assumptions about the totality of the trans experience.
You never even hear about Transmen, because the conversation about abuse and misgendering is like 99% about Transwomen, which is another issue in a sea of issues that the community at large is forced to tackle, and the difficulties in speaking about any and all difficulties only gets more exaggerated when people who pass can't even discuss their own issues, little as they may be, without being treated like they come from the same privileged position as fucking cis gendered people, what the fuck.
My point is, criticism is all well and good, and when given and taken in a healthy forum can greatly improve the community at large. But there needs to be a healthy forum first.
There needs to be a big, curated central place for trans people to be able to speak to each other in confidence, and discuss issues they face with their unique situation, without it spiraling out into a tornado of bullshit and classism. A forum for trans folks, a gated discord, whatever can be healthily moderated.
Because twitter isn't working. Saying somebody passes beautifully or handsomely, will always sound like "you look great, hon," in a wide space like twitter. Criticizing somebody's unique issues in their unique way of living will always look sketchy or righteous out in the open. And no matter what, if even an inkling of your identity is out in the open, you will most likely be harassed every single day, and for many, that is rightly impossible to live with.
Is there a hangout strictly for Trans Folks? Because maybe there should be one. The community at large needs to stick together, work out their own system for discussing the troubles they face, individually and as a group, and find a method of supporting each other that feels legitimate, and helps them grow together, regardless of hardship.
And that's not going to happen if they constantly have to hold themselves accountable to the internet at large, majorly ignorant and sadly quite hostile. They need to get together and lock the doors until they have a foundation of support that they can rely on.
Maybe turn off the other social media's, go dark and make their own echo chamber, whatever can be done to enrich a community of individuals, brought together out of love and support despite wide differences, and help them focus on building something trans people of all walks of life can truly feel safe coming back to.
Maybe I'm lecturing too much. I do not identify as a trans person, so I may be out of my element, and Mansplaining here, giving a community deserving of love and respect a ton of bullshit. And if that is what i'm doing, I sincerely apologize.
I just want the best for the trans community, and it consistently breaks my heart to see the same issues come up again, and again, and again, with no clear way out. I only hope my impassioned words bring an option for safe discussion into the light, and I will continue wishing the best for the trans community at large.
I don't know this is why we need to listen to marginalized groups and see what they want. Last thing I wanna do is patronize someone especially someone who's constantly "othered" everywhere else. On the other hand I hate how this is being framed as "hyperwoke", I know she doesn't mean it but it reads like "woke, but bad" which sort of plays into the hands of shitheads who will use it as a excuse to continue to rag on percieved "SJWs" including most LGBTQ.
If someone asks me my pronouns:
That isn't to say the solution is to ask everyone their pronouns all of the time. I don't know the solution. I just know the attitude of 'if I misgender you then that's your problem and it's on you to correct me' seems to treat me stating my pronouns unprompted and someone asking them as a 1:1 equal and easy experience, when it isn't.
- I'll pause briefly to consider the people in the room
- I'll likely tell them my pronouns as they've shown to care and feels like an inclusive space
- I will always be misgendered everywhere unless I put myself out there. In doing so..
- I need to consider you and whether I think you will a) understand transgender identities and b) respect them
- Be prepared to be mocked and face ridicule and either a) lighten up and appreciate the 'banter' or b) stand up for myself and thus be seen to sour the situation.
- Find an appropriate avenue to try and tell them, without it edging into the "you're not special" territory (and trusting they won't go there anyway)
- Consider the fact that even if they react well that behind closed doors this might spread in an unsavoury manner
That isn't to say the solution is to ask everyone their pronouns all of the time. I don't know the solution. I just know the attitude of 'if I misgender you then that's your problem and it's on you to correct me' seems to treat me stating my pronouns unprompted and someone asking them as a 1:1 equal and easy experience, when it isn't.
Language isn't at a stage to accommodate gender neutral pronouns without some amount of clumsiness, and that isn't going to change overnight.
I use whatever pronouns I assume someone is presenting as, and if I'm corrected, I correct myself from that point and we move on amicably.
The assholes of the world aren't gonna correct themselves whether you announce your pronouns before initiating conversation or after.
I use whatever pronouns I assume someone is presenting as, and if I'm corrected, I correct myself from that point and we move on amicably.
The assholes of the world aren't gonna correct themselves whether you announce your pronouns before initiating conversation or after.
It's not a great take, but it certainly reflects an interesting conflict. On one hand, "transwomen are women and transmen are men" is a sentiment that has to be repeated 1,000,000 times before certain people can finally internalize it, and it's understandable if having to announce your pronouns as a transwoman/man contributes to the sense that your gender will never simply be taken for granted. If you're passing, like Natalie is, perhaps a regressive-ass sports bar in North Carolina could even end up being more conducive to reaffirming experiences than a more inclusive, LGBTQ+-literate environment.
Even putting aside that that leaves out a lot of people, though, (trans folks who aren't as passing as Natalie, non-binary people, etc.) it seems to me one thing Natalie is doing here is overemphasizing gender expression. There's very good reason that people have tried to detach gender expression from gender identity, to make it that we stop taking gender for granted just on the basis of these or those physical features. Again, I can sympathize with Natalie's perspective, but in the grand scheme of things, a society where people are more likely to ask for your pronouns is one in which "transwomen are women and transmen are men" is more likely to seen as just another societal norm.
To be honest, though, it kinda can change overnight. Some initial clumsiness is to be expected, I guess, but it doesn't take much work to get used to saying "they" more often.
Even putting aside that that leaves out a lot of people, though, (trans folks who aren't as passing as Natalie, non-binary people, etc.) it seems to me one thing Natalie is doing here is overemphasizing gender expression. There's very good reason that people have tried to detach gender expression from gender identity, to make it that we stop taking gender for granted just on the basis of these or those physical features. Again, I can sympathize with Natalie's perspective, but in the grand scheme of things, a society where people are more likely to ask for your pronouns is one in which "transwomen are women and transmen are men" is more likely to seen as just another societal norm.
To be honest, though, it kinda can change overnight. Some initial clumsiness is to be expected, I guess, but it doesn't take much work to get used to saying "they" more often.
I didn't mean that it's difficult or inconvenient to use gender neutral pronouns more often, just that mistakes will happen and well-meaning people will correct themselves during this period when language itself is transitioning (pun not intended).
The enemy, meanwhile, doesn't give a shit.
Yeah. Clearly I'm saying you should shut up and agree. No room between "yass queen" and "she's bad and she should feel bad."
I don't get this thread. Aren't the tweets talking about situations where there's only one passing transgender person in a group with cis-people and they still do the pronoun circle? They never mention situations where non-passing or non-binary people are present.
I'm not sure if OP is aware or why the thread wasn't updated, but Natalie had to close her twitter over the shit she got over this.
Oh no! That sucks... it's hard to tell when shit gets flung about stuff like this all the time, but I'm not being sarcastic.
It's honestly for the best these days though, Twitter can be a place of coming together as much as it can be a place of abuse. I hope the vacation from it helps her out.
I still think there needs to be an inclusive community by trans people, for trans people, since this shit gets out of hand when open to regular, often shitty people far too often.
Wynn got a lot of pushback from NB and other trans ppl on this and other tweets where they described themself as 'old school', and wanting to pass (which is of course their right). However, they implied that those who choose to present on the spectrum outside of normative gender presentation are somehow new, novel, and mystifying. Many pointed out that this isn't actually new - NB and androgynous people have always been around, and some were miffed that Wynn seemed to view them with some side-eye.
If I'm unsure, I just go with "sir or ma'am" and then go with what they ask.
No need to act like it's Minesweeper.
No need to act like it's Minesweeper.
I knew the second I saw her post it that it was going to cause a fucking shitstorm, but not that bad. That's awful.
This kind of thing always seems to crop up when certain members of marginalized groups have the potential opportunity to become a normalized part of the mainstream.
Gay men have been asking other gay men to "tone it down" for this exact reason for decades.
Gay men have been asking other gay men to "tone it down" for this exact reason for decades.
i feel the same, but it wouldn't be surprising given all the ~criticism~ being lobbed at her from should-be allies. no room for being constructive here or promoting other voices to help represent such a broad, diverse group; nah just tear this lady down instead.
As someone who isn't trans but is more interested in learning about the nuances in trans discourse, can someone give me an explanation as to why this caught so much heat? I understand she's a big voice in the LGBT YouTube community but based on the tweets I saw, it seemed all she was saying is that what the community at large has considered trans identity has changed significantly in the past decade and that it's sometimes difficult and strange for older generations of trans people to see how younger generations of trans express their gender identity. The tweets didn't come off as aggressive or dismissive, and she seemed like she was copiously aware of how she couldn't speak for non-binary people because she's not one and didn't come-of-age in a time where non-binary folks had a voice. She's not being suppressive, she's just outmoded. As an outsider looking in, I don't see how that's a controversial position to take. Like, of course there's inter-generational strife when it comes to how people perform their identities, that's how cultures work. The way I perform masculinity is different from my dad's which was different from his dad's and so on. It doesn't mean one of our versions of masculinity is oppressing the other. All the rhetoric I've seen on online makes it seem like she's like Graham Lineham which seems reductive, immature, and actively harmful.
I'm not sure why people talk as though a discussion about an issue here is the same as people collectively harassing her directly on Twitter.
There's three pages with numerous posts discussing it here. If you want to discuss the topic engage with those posts. The whining meta-commentary does nothing to help foster the discussion you're claiming to seek.
in any fast moving social moment yesterday's revolutionaries are tomorrow's reactionaries
the discussion here can be good and on twitter can be dozens of people telling her to kill herself.
if my twitter account ever somehow got big i think i'd probably close it before i generate that kind of backlash. the platform is garbage for big accounts unless you're using it to grift or troll.
Considering all the highlighted points I find it hard to believe you're actually interested in learning over just having a pretence to tell people taking issue why their points have so far been reductive, immature and actively harmful.
It might help to begin by reading and then responding instead of stating you're here to learn why it's an issue before immediately telling people it isn't one.
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one of my favorite things about natalie wynn is how often she stresses she's speaking from her personal experiences, and how those experiences made her feel, and how her experiences are not universal, and how often people ignore all of that to complain that their new idol isn't living up to the expectations they placed on her.
I've been a fan of Contra since long before her videos were even remotely popular but one of the consistent running conflicts that underline a lot of her videos is that she's just not a radical leftist. Contra at her core is a left-leaning liberal who really just wants to live her life, she's not interested in deconstructing centuries of social conditioning or uprooting our entire economic structures in anything more than a kind of academic sense of "Yeah, I suppose we should do that, but since we obviously can't, we should just make do with being better." I remember one interview or another with her where she discussed her eating habits and she basically said ever since she got enough money to stop cooking herself, she just orders out constantly, gets tons of food Uber Eats-delivered, and even though she respects the Vegan argument about stopping meat eating, she can't commit to doing it. Like, the character in her climate denial video (the one who petulantly just screams "No! I don't wanna! I don't wanna be inconvenienced! I like stuff!") always felt a little too close to home.
All this is to say: her dialogue on gender issues always runs into this wall, because when she gets accused of being a bit NB-phobic, I get where both sides are coming from (though I should state I'm not trans - being gay is as far as I go on the LGBT grouping though I've never cared about gender expression ever since I was a kid and always felt like it was a silly dichotomy, so I've always been close to the NB perspective even if I don't identify as such), because Natalie herself clearly sympathizes on some sort of objective level with the idea of gender being silly and entirely socially constructed and something we would probably be better off without, but due to her political imagination being what it is, she just has no desire in personally pursuing that and finds it a bit of a nuisance. She genuinely values socially constructed gender roles, she likes being incredibly feminine even if she will occasionally admit how meaningless those distinctions are. So the NB rallying cry of gender roles being completely dismantled is something that I actually do feel, sometimes, Natalie is unironically "phobic" of - as in, genuinely fearful, not hateful/disdainful. She does seem to find it as being something that threatens her personally preferred methods of gender expression.
It's a shame she felt the need to leave Twitter over it, obviously she has consistently been the target of a monumental amount of shit, and tons of alt-right people love trying to keep using it as a means of making her some sort of alt-right figure by proxy or something, but I think the discourse over her attitudes toward gender do deserve some criticism. She does sometimes come off as genuinely phobic of the non-binary identity.
All this is to say: her dialogue on gender issues always runs into this wall, because when she gets accused of being a bit NB-phobic, I get where both sides are coming from (though I should state I'm not trans - being gay is as far as I go on the LGBT grouping though I've never cared about gender expression ever since I was a kid and always felt like it was a silly dichotomy, so I've always been close to the NB perspective even if I don't identify as such), because Natalie herself clearly sympathizes on some sort of objective level with the idea of gender being silly and entirely socially constructed and something we would probably be better off without, but due to her political imagination being what it is, she just has no desire in personally pursuing that and finds it a bit of a nuisance. She genuinely values socially constructed gender roles, she likes being incredibly feminine even if she will occasionally admit how meaningless those distinctions are. So the NB rallying cry of gender roles being completely dismantled is something that I actually do feel, sometimes, Natalie is unironically "phobic" of - as in, genuinely fearful, not hateful/disdainful. She does seem to find it as being something that threatens her personally preferred methods of gender expression.
It's a shame she felt the need to leave Twitter over it, obviously she has consistently been the target of a monumental amount of shit, and tons of alt-right people love trying to keep using it as a means of making her some sort of alt-right figure by proxy or something, but I think the discourse over her attitudes toward gender do deserve some criticism. She does sometimes come off as genuinely phobic of the non-binary identity.
With regards to the topic itself, I don't think that there's a one-size-fits all solution, even within the binary trans community. I've seen a self-identified non-passing binary trans woman proclaim that she found Natalie's comments hurtful. On the other hand, I've seen a male-presenting trans woman who is still in the closet say that, much like Natalie, pronoun declarations are a reminder of her otherness and thus a source of dysphoria.
One nb youtuber mentioned that it's going be a compromise of needs. They mentioned an example in which they (someone with ADHD) wanted to watch a movie with a deaf friend. The deaf friend needs the subtitles, whereas the the subtitles serve as a distraction and a detriment to the movie experience for their ADHD. But because they share this space, they needed to decide whose needs win out.
One nb youtuber mentioned that it's going be a compromise of needs. They mentioned an example in which they (someone with ADHD) wanted to watch a movie with a deaf friend. The deaf friend needs the subtitles, whereas the the subtitles serve as a distraction and a detriment to the movie experience for their ADHD. But because they share this space, they needed to decide whose needs win out.
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