leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,120
It really seemed like Capcom was starting to get it and head in the right direction with SF3 (Elena, Dudley and Sean are all great PoC representation compared to anything else in the series, IMHO), which was freaking 20 years ago, and then has just been backsliding since. One can hope that with Ono being gone things. might improve, but it's got to be deeper than just that one guy.
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,163
"the designation loses meaning" when you dig into it because it was always a rough designation. This sort of colour language was a European way of painting the world in broad strokes to both understand a world that's much bigger than they are, and were used by the scientific racism community to express ideas of white supremacy. Humans aren't built with ideas of people in colour groups in their heads, and they've spent more time identifying by tribe and religion than by nationality or colour. The language and terms which seek to supplant is kept around nowadays often because those simplifications are convenient to conversations or because identities have formed around them, not because they're accurate descriptions.

Oh yeah, you don't have to tell me how arbitrary Black, White, etc. can be and about the artificial nature of race, I'm well aware :P But to me that's an argument for a broad, inclusive read of the designation rather than a narrow, exclusive read. For example, I understand and appreciate the want and need to fight against colorism (I'm pretty dark myself LOL) but if you cling too hard to "if they aren't this dark then they ain't Black" then you end up excluding even a lot of Black people IRL who are mixed or have lighter complexions. You need to be flexible.

Egypt is part of Africa. Egyptian representation is African representation. It is true not ALL Egyptians would be considered "Black" but if someone looks at Menat and is trying to "well actually" the Black out of her well that's just up straight crazy to me. IMO that's a reading of Blackness so narrow that it veers into bad-faith and/or people with that reading strike me as the type of person impossible to please and maybe not even looking to be pleased.

B) Blue eyes and red hair are a common combo for white characters though, and given her skin complexion is a shade of white skin tone I see no reason to see her a black female

19_viper01.jpg


Especially when she appears even lighter in SF5 appearances

Again, I don't think eye/hair color mean much in the world of Street Fighter. But I'll take your point that there is enough weirdness with her skintone in SF5 (Are they officially changing her design? Does Bengus just not give a shit?) relative to SF4 and MvC3 (which are pretty consistent) that I might want to step off this ledge and wait to see how SF6 pans out.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,469
Laura is black. She's coded as a character of African descent. Hakan and Necalli are not. Menat could be black, but she also could not be. All we know is she's dark skinned and Egyptian, and there are many dark skinned Egyptians who are not black.

Right, and Its funny how darker skin tones throw people though a loop. There are many shades of black, white, and brown. But we can't say Menat is African representation when everything about her character design and theme says Egyptian

Again, I don't think eye/hair color mean much in the world of Street Fighter. But I'll take your point that there is enough weirdness with her skintone in SF5 (Are they officially changing her design? Does Bengus just not give a shit?) relative to SF4 and MvC3 (which are pretty consistent) that I might want to step off this ledge and wait to see how SF6 pans out.

Thats true, but when red hair and blue eyes, are on a medium white skin tone (that is even lighter in art) it is just too far away to say "this is a black female Street Fighter character". I'm saying her skin is a shade of white but she could very well be hispanic or something else, but I would think she is a terrible excuse for a black female fighter with how white washed she is and even 2008 Capcom wouldn't be that stupidly offensive.
 

Zekes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,837
Yeah it sucks. Laura's my favourite addition in SFV, and I hope we see her in SF6 but I'm not holding my breath
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,116
South Central Los Angeles
Yeah it sucks. Laura's my favourite addition in SFV, and I hope we see her in SF6 but I'm not holding my breath

She's my favorite fighting game character to debut in the last 20 years. I'm pretty sure she won't be in at launch for the next game, tho. Sean and Makoto (Laura is basically the Makoto function of SFV) will make it in before she does. I can see her as DLC, because she's wildly popular and one of the most played newcomers (if not the most played according to Capcom's usage stats most months).
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,160
Houston, TX
It really seemed like Capcom was starting to get it and head in the right direction with SF3 (Elena, Dudley and Sean are all great PoC representation compared to anything else in the series, IMHO), which was freaking 20 years ago, and then has just been backsliding since. One can hope that with Ono being gone things. might improve, but it's got to be deeper than just that one guy.
While I could see a scenario where Luke may have already been put in place before the development reboot, stuff like the racist caricatures in Luke's character story show that Ono wasn't the only problem.
 

Dreamboum

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,031
But if they share the same blood then Laura can be considered black as well. Japanese fighting games have a problem with Brazilian designs since characters like Tekken's Eddy and SF's Sean can easily be seen as black fighters but when it comes to the females like Laura and Tekken's Christie they look like they lean way heavier on being "hispanic" looking and in the case of Lura having notably lighter skin than her brother. It can't be a coincidence with both these series.



Yeah that is clearly white skin, it just looks a little more medium toned due to the lighting? But look at her SF5 character design (that was never used)

cv02.jpg
what the fuck did they do to her? This game is so ass they managed to ruin non-playable characters.

I was praying that Dudley didn't make it in SF5 so he could have a shot at being in a better game but it turns out so was Capcom.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,160
Houston, TX
what the fuck did they do to her? This game is so ass they managed to ruin non-playable characters.

I was praying that Dudley didn't make it in SF5 so he could have a shot at being in a better game but it turns out so was Capcom.
Thankfully they didn't make Dudley pale.

dudley.jpg
 

Bob White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,976


Dude, stop being so cringe by asking for more representation in fighting games! Also, would you like to see my new youtube vid titled "Kathleen Kennedy HAS GOT TO GO"?
 

Adnor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,981
is K' considered black? (His backstory is that he is a kyo clone but is it just tan or… his skin looks about the same tone as the two black females).
He's not a clone clone of Kyo, but someone who was experimented on, and I don't think we know from where he was kidnapped as a kid. His sister, Whip, is white.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,160
Houston, TX
is K' considered black? (His backstory is that he is a kyo clone but is it just tan or… his skin looks about the same tone as the two Black ladies).
While Dolores is Black, Isla (the one with the ghost hands) is Latina.

He's not a clone clone of Kyo, but someone who was experimented on, and I don't think we know from where he was kidnapped as a kid. His sister, Whip, is white.
Isn't K' a cyborg?
 

Adnor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,981
While Dolores is Black, Isla (the one with the ghost hands) is Latina.


Isn't K' a cyborg?
Iirc he was kidnapped as a kid and experimented on by NEST with Kyo's DNA, and told he was a clone of Krizalid, when Krizalid was a clone of him. I know Maxima is a cyborg, but I think K' is just augmented? Not 100% sure though.
 

Tsuyu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,870
Not surprising.

All the big japanese studio ( Nintendo, Square Enix, Capcom etc ) panders to white males more than anything.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,211
is K' considered black? (His backstory is that he is a kyo clone but is it just tan or… his skin looks about the same tone as the two black females).

He is from an unknown country. Consider that Whip is a clone of his biological sister, and she is white as far as I know
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Yeah that's fuckin lame. And while it's not intentional, I can't help but see it as a slight to all the black players.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,469
what the fuck did they do to her? This game is so ass they managed to ruin non-playable characters.

I was praying that Dudley didn't make it in SF5 so he could have a shot at being in a better game but it turns out so was Capcom.

It looks pretty rough and like they never seriously considered her to be return in this installment. Hopefully her SF6 design is more remarkable
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,160
Houston, TX
Not surprising.

All the big japanese studio ( Nintendo, Square Enix, Capcom etc ) panders to white males more than anything.
Actually, most other Japanese fighting game developers have been improving regarding Black representation. Bandai Namco, SNK, Arc System Works, & even Nintendo EPD Group 9 got the memo. The only major issues right now are Sakurai's team & Capcom.
 

Vee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,560
I don't know why but something about Lucia being half puerto rican bothers me? Like it feels a little bit like they're trying to get free brownie points for diversity?

I'm not puerto rican so it's not my place but it just feels like you wouldn't know unless you really dug into the lore? And I'm not saying she has to look a certain way but if a puerto rican friend asked me about any fighting game characters that repped them Lucia would not come to mind.
 

RumHam

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 12, 2019
514
It's especially a major step back when you consider that Street Fighter V's main character was a new MENA character (Rashid).
You keep pushing this narrative that Rashid is the main character and he's really not. If you want to make a case that at launch Necalli was I'd listen to that conversation, but this one isn't accurate at all.

On topic though, I feel like Capcoms approach to making a Black fighter is "What kind of fighter can we make a Black person" and they don't have any idea's that they haven't already done. E.g. they only make Black stereotypes.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,160
Houston, TX
You keep pushing this narrative that Rashid is the main character and he's really not. If you want to make a case that at launch Necalli was I'd listen to that conversation, but this one isn't accurate at all.
That fact was cited by Capcom themselves twice, to the point where Ryu's design was slightly modified to accommodate Rashid.

Character Guide 114: Rashid | The Character Guides | Activity Reports | CAPCOM:Shadaloo C.R.I.

Rashid Here we are with the main character of Street Fighter V's general story! He's a young man ...

latest



On topic though, I feel like Capcoms approach to making a Black fighter is "What kind of fighter can we make a Black person" and they don't have any idea's that they haven't already done. E.g. they only make Black stereotypes.
And that's a problem in-&-of itself.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,746
Blonde Fighter needs to tone it down next game. They must really like that hair color over there considering even birdie is blonde.

C. Viper is just not described as far as I know.
None of these people are described as anything. If someone wants to consider C. Viper black, what's the matter?
I don't know why but something about Lucia being half puerto rican bothers me? Like it feels a little bit like they're trying to get free brownie points for diversity?

I'm not puerto rican so it's not my place but it just feels like you wouldn't know unless you really dug into the lore? And I'm not saying she has to look a certain way but if a puerto rican friend asked me about any fighting game characters that repped them Lucia would not come to mind.
It is conceivably something the English voice actress made up on the spot lol. She said she asked if she could incorporate some of her own slang and they said okay.
That said we have all kinds of people in Latin America.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,214
Blonde Fighter needs to tone it down next game. They must really like that hair color over there considering even birdie is blonde.

*Looks at Luke* We're off to a great start. Dude couldn't be more blonde and blue eye'd than we got.

edit; I was just guessing he had blue eyes too, and of course he does.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,929
I know that the OP tends to use "black" very specifically in reference to African-American blackness as opposed to "dark-skinned", to which I say this: I would love to see Capcom recycle and reuse King Cobra. That design is fire, the idea of his combat style is fire, and it's a horrible fucking shame that Ono looked at that and thought fatass dumbass Rufus was a good alternative. Fuck that, fix that shit.

Also I always read Crimson Viper as a tan-skinned Latina to the point where I will straight-up accuse SFV of whitewashing. Similarly Lucia should also be a lot more tanner than she actually wound up.
 

jacket

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,063
I know that the OP tends to use "black" very specifically in reference to African-American blackness as opposed to "dark-skinned", to which I say this: I would love to see Capcom recycle and reuse King Cobra. That design is fire, the idea of his combat style is fire, and it's a horrible fucking shame that Ono looked at that and thought fatass dumbass Rufus was a good alternative. Fuck that, fix that shit.
i agree 100%
 

Crashman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,242
It's actually a bit puzzling how this seemed to ramp up as part of SFV's DLC, since the starting four newcomers are pretty diverse.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,920
I don't know why but something about Lucia being half puerto rican bothers me? Like it feels a little bit like they're trying to get free brownie points for diversity?

I'm not puerto rican so it's not my place but it just feels like you wouldn't know unless you really dug into the lore? And I'm not saying she has to look a certain way but if a puerto rican friend asked me about any fighting game characters that repped them Lucia would not come to mind.
If she didn't come out with random spanish words at times, I never would have known.

You keep pushing this narrative that Rashid is the main character and he's really not.
He is though.



FE7y0V0aQAAxEmh
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,116
South Central Los Angeles
You keep pushing this narrative that Rashid is the main character and he's really not. If you want to make a case that at launch Necalli was I'd listen to that conversation, but this one isn't accurate at all.

Rashid is 100% the protagonist of SFV. It's not a narrative he's pushing. Capcom has stated it again and again over the last 5 years.

Watch Luke's character breakdown even. While demonstrating Luke they pit him against all of the series protagonists who are in SFV. Ryu (at the 2:20 mark), Alex (7:35), and Rashid (10:35).

 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,929
So much fat hate on Era :(

When they made Santamu black instead of Vietnamese, they could've at least made her playable.

It bums me that they never added Azam even though he was part of the story from the beginning. Meanwhile they added the most generic member of Ed's junior Shadaloo posse.
 

Deleted member 1102

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,295
It's probably not going to get any better after how well received Luke was in Japan.

At this point I just want Sean in 6 and then go from there. Him not being a complete joke is a totally separate battle I'm not ready to think about right now.
 

NexusCell

Member
Nov 2, 2017
858
It's probably not going to get any better after how well received Luke was in Japan.

At this point I just want Sean in 6 and then go from there. Him not being a complete joke is a totally separate battle I'm not ready to think about right now.
Wait Luke was well received in Japan?
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,514
Ridiculous especially when you consider how strong a presence we (black people) have in the FGC compared to every other esport and genre, especially when it comes to Street Fighter.
 

ev0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,443
I get annoyed whenever I think about the awesome Rufus concept art and compare it to what we got
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,929
Meanwhile KOF XV has 2 new female (black and latina) characters in the cover of the game
E9qVlxTVkAA0Vup

To be fair, KOF15 has its own share of problems. They cut the 3 black newcomers from KOF14, plus Najd, Xanadu, every Chinese char minus Shun'ei and Meitenkun, and every Korean char.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,116
South Central Los Angeles
I know that the OP tends to use "black" very specifically in reference to African-American blackness as opposed to "dark-skinned"

OP is not using black to mean "African-American."

Laura is black and not African-American. Birdie, Sean, Dee Jay, Elena, and Dudley are black and not African-American. Balrog is the only playable African-American in Street Fighter. Mike is the only African-American NPC you can fight against in a mainline Street Fighter.

Black is not synonymous with darkskin or African-Americans (which is an ethnic group). Most black people live outside of the United States, but all African-Americans are from the US. There are many black people who are not dark-skinned. There are many black people in Africa who are not of mixed heritage even who are not dark-skinned.

When discussing black people, the "black" almost always means "of African descent." I say almost always because some of the indigenous people of Oceania also identify as black, but they are not of (recent) African descent.