Is bad or mediocre HDR still better than no HDR?

[TickleMeElbow]

My Samsung TV has "fake" HDR lol, and it looks like ass except for Death Stranding. It's the only game where it looks better with the jank HDR turned on.

For everything else I turn on dynamic contrast and it looks better than the HDR.

Edit: actually it's called contrast enhancer not dynamic contrast.

 

[DrScruffleton]

I had a Sony X800D before, games looked like shit with HDR, I would constantly be turning it off. Stuff looked all washed out and ugly. I got an LG C9 recently and wow the difference. Everything looks amazing.

 

[Black_Stride]

My Samsung TV has "fake" HDR lol, and it looks like ass except for Death Stranding. It's the only game where it looks better with the jank HDR turned on.

For everything else I turn on dynamic contrast and it looks better than the HDR.

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Doesnt Dynamic Contrast just end up hiding details that would even be present with SDR content?

Ive never seen a good implementation of Dynamic Contrast.
I had one TV some time back that had it on, and it was the worst experience ever because there would be scenes where the Dynamic Contrast would actually hide details that were in shadows because of something like the HUD being bright.

Also, just turn off HDR, you are likely spoiling your experience with fake HDR.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Doesnt Dynamic Contrast just end up hiding details that would even be present with SDR content?

Ive never seen a good implementation of Dynamic Contrast.
I had one TV some time back that had it on, and it was the worst experience ever because there would be scenes where the Dynamic Contrast would actually hide details that were in shadows because of something like the HUD being bright.

Also, just turn off HDR, you are likely spoiling your experience with fake HDR.

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Actually I just checked and it's call contrast enhancer instead of dynamic contrast haha. Has off, low, and high as options.

Anyways I usually have that on high, and it looks better to me. Doesn't hide the details or anything. Seems to mimic HDR better than the fake HDR which I have turned off (except for Death Stranding).

 

[Jonboy]

I bought an LG B9 a few weeks ago and have decided to not use HDR at all. It's bugged on many OLEDs through Apple TV/some internal apps/PS4 and I think maybe Xbox one x.

There are raised blacks which you then have to drop the brightness to correct which then crushes blacks.

I've had the issue with Death Stranding, AC Origins and Odyssey, Days Gone and a couple others I'm not remembering right now.

It's ok because SDR content looks incredible anyways. I still hope LG or whoever is responsible eventually fixes it, but it's been going on for years so I'm not betting on it.

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Was having the exact same problem, but I found a fix. It has to do with the PS4's auto setting for rgb range. When you have it on auto, the PS4 will default to Full RGB for SDR, but drops to limited RGB for HDR (limitation of HDMI 2.0).

I can't remember the LG default for black level (I believe it's low), but essentially the PS4 doesn't handshake properly with the tv when it makes the change from Full RGB to limited. Not sure if this is Sony's fault or LG but I can confirm I had handshake issues with other tvs as well.

There are 2 ways to fix. Go with option 1 if you ever watch blu rays or any other video content on your PS4. Option 2 if you only game on it.

Option 1
- Manually set your PS4's rgb settings to limited.
- Make sure your B9's black level is set to low as well (under picture settings)

Option 2
- Manually set your PS4's rgb settings to Full RGB (leaving it on auto should work too, but I don't trust it)
- Manually set the B9 black level to high
- Launch an HDR compatible game and make sure the tv switches modes (hdr logo in the top right)
- Go back into the LG picture mode settings and now set the black level to low

If you're having the same issues I was, then this should work. Let me know how it goes.

 

[Uncle Fester]

The only thing that requires a brightness drop of 1 point is dolby vision through hdmi. Nothing else should give you any issues.

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That's what I thought when I bought the tv. I knew about the issue, but after testing a lot of stuff it's happening with HDR10 in certain circumstances as well like I mentioned earlier. The problem is is that I just don't know if the problem areas I've found are just that, problem areas. Or does it affect the whole game or movie? If it only affects certain scenes then dropping brightness will negatively affect everything else. On Prometheus I had to drop brightness to 47 to get it to display accurately In one scene. That was on my Apple TV and the internal Apple app.

Even dropping brightness by one point on Dolby vision on my Apple TV crushes shadow detail.

Near the beginning of death stranding when it is just cut scenes, there's a part with black bars like a movie would have. If you are in a dark room with no lights, go up close to your tv and the black bars are not black. They display the same way the broken Dolby vision does on Apple TV. If you drop brightness to 49 they turn jet black. But how do you know if it only affects that scene or the whole game? You don't.

My oled replaced a Sony x900f. The Sony has very dim and washed out Dolby vision. You can read on all the complaints about that. It is almost u watchable in a bright room.

I just don't think hdr was ready for prime time. Sure, when it works the way it should it's beautiful. There's just too many issues with black levels, dimness, washed out, bad implementation etc. throughout many devices and content.

 

[JohnnyToonami]

Yeah Bad HDR is not better than no HDR.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Was having the exact same problem, but I found a fix. It has to do with the PS4's auto setting for rgb range. When you have it on auto, the PS4 will default to Full RGB for SDR, but drops to limited RGB for HDR (limitation of HDMI 2.0).

I can't remember the LG default for black level (I believe it's low), but essentially the PS4 doesn't handshake properly with the tv when it makes the change from Full RGB to limited. Not sure if this is Sony's fault or LG but I can confirm I had handshake issues with other tvs as well.

There are 2 ways to fix. Go with option 1 if you ever watch blu rays or any other video content on your PS4. Option 2 if you only game on it.

Option 1
- Manually set your PS4's rgb settings to limited.
- Make sure your B9's black level is set to low as well (under picture settings)

Option 2
- Manually set your PS4's rgb settings to Full RGB (leaving it on auto should work too, but I don't trust it)
- Manually set the B9 black level to high
- Launch an HDR compatible game and make sure the tv switches modes (hdr logo in the top right)
- Go back into the LG picture mode settings and now set the black level to low

If you're having the same issues I was, then this should work. Let me know how it goes.

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I appreciate your post, but I already knew about this. It's not the cause of the issue I'm having. Thank you for trying to help.

 

[OneThirtyEight]

but replaying The Last of Us Remastered with HDR on (and using the PS4 Pro's HDR calibration tool in the settings of the console) I'm unsure if the game is better on this TV with it on or off.

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Last of Us does not have good HDR. I'm not an expert on the subject but games like Uncharted 4, Shadow of the Colossus, Days Gone and Death Stranding looks fucking fantastic with HDR however The Last of Us does not. I switched off the HDR when replaying it.

 

[Kickfister]

Say you have a scene that is particularly dim. Think Shadow of the Colossus, that fight with the colossi in the water, with the deep, moody lighting. Think of what type of nit range that would probably occupy in HDR. It's going to be something extremely low on average (probably no more than 50 nits). Now if you take that signal and throw it onto a TV that doesn't have local dimming and the contrast ratio is fairly poor, that TV still needs the make that signal work like it could make use of the full range. So that 0-50 nit range is further compressed by the subpar HDR tonemapping (as required by the TV) to make sure all the information can at least be presented in some capacity. As a result, the image is going to look washed out. The same thing will occur with the inverse, if the majority of the HDR signal occupies high nit values.

In SDR, the total range isn't trying to be physically correct necessarily, and all TVs can meet this spec, so the tonemapping done by the developers is going to be far more flattering in SDR. The contrast in the scene is just going to look more correct.

Basically the most important thing with HDR is good contrast ratio and at least decent peak brightness. Honestly, 8-bit + FRC vs 10-bit panel isn't nearly as big of a deal (especially because a lot of HDR content, at least for games, isn't even true 10 bit and will exhibit banding).

The TL;DR is that bad HDR is worse than SDR, and the worst looking HDR on a bad set is probably one of the better HDR implementations on a good set.

 

[discotheque]

The fake HDR on my LG 27GL650F-B makes all the colors look desaturated and dim. I've turned it on a few times and it's never been worth it.

 

[plagiarize]

On the TV side? I had an entry level low end HDR set and I preferred games with HDR on vs off, so long as the game had calibration sliders.

On the game side? No. Bad HDR on the game is not better than no HDR, although what I think of as 'bad' is different to many. I like RE2 and RE3, for example. Bad for me is RDR2's initial implementation. Anything that just takes an SDR image and pushes the highest brightnesses above 100 nits, or anything where the HUD elements are at stupidly high brightness (again, like RDR2 at launch).

Never liked the TV modes that take SDR and try to make it HDR though. Those suck.

 

[Jonboy]

I appreciate your post, but I already knew about this. It's not the cause of the issue I'm having. Thank you for trying to help.

Click to shrink...

Darn. Thought it was the same thing.

Now I'm afraid to read your newest post on detail as I have the exact same TV.

 

[Lump]

Bad HDR is objectively worse than SDR in almost every case. At least with games you can turn it on and off. With streaming services, you're stuck with cases of bad HDR unless you change system settings somewhere and it's just a pain in the ass.

 

[J_ToSaveTheDay]

With Resident Evil 2 Remake, I felt that it had imperfect HDR, and I preferred that imperfect HDR to the SDR presentation. Thankfully, RE3 performed much better on the HDR front (as did Devil May Cry 5, to name another game with the same engine).

But bad HDR like the original implementation of Red Dead Redemption 2 was not to my liking and I preferred SDR in that game. Thankfully, the game has been updated to have better HDR implementation that's actually good, though the original bad HDR is still available in the settings. I also feel like God of War 2018 has imperfect/bad HDR where I actually prefer the SDR presentation, though at times the God of War HDR implementation can look gorgeous — it just doesn't apply to every scene equally.

 

[Zor]

Just wanted to quickly say thanks to the folks who pointed me at settings recommendations for my specific set. I've been playing The Last of Us Part 2 with HDR, some slight tweaks to recommended TV HDR settings (notched Contrast up two levels to 92) and it really looks spectacular. I'm really happy with the results.

 

[Bennibop]

Was having the exact same problem, but I found a fix. It has to do with the PS4's auto setting for rgb range. When you have it on auto, the PS4 will default to Full RGB for SDR, but drops to limited RGB for HDR (limitation of HDMI 2.0).

I can't remember the LG default for black level (I believe it's low), but essentially the PS4 doesn't handshake properly with the tv when it makes the change from Full RGB to limited. Not sure if this is Sony's fault or LG but I can confirm I had handshake issues with other tvs as well.

There are 2 ways to fix. Go with option 1 if you ever watch blu rays or any other video content on your PS4. Option 2 if you only game on it.

Option 1
- Manually set your PS4's rgb settings to limited.
- Make sure your B9's black level is set to low as well (under picture settings)

Option 2
- Manually set your PS4's rgb settings to Full RGB (leaving it on auto should work too, but I don't trust it)
- Manually set the B9 black level to high
- Launch an HDR compatible game and make sure the tv switches modes (hdr logo in the top right)
- Go back into the LG picture mode settings and now set the black level to low

If you're having the same issues I was, then this should work. Let me know how it goes.

Click to shrink...

This, its an issue for other TVs also including Samsung, make a massive difference when you change.

Option 1
- Manually set your PS4's rgb settings to limited.
- Make sure your B9's black level is set to low as well (under picture settings)

 

[Heidern]

What do you mean by bad HDR though? I feel like people that dislike HDR have a TV that might not be as capable of approaching a good level of quality with the HDR presentation. I think fake HDR is bad, but I don't think an HDR implementation that is "correct" can be bad, only the display that presents it.

 

[Skyebaron]

Is there a list of games with bad HDR? I can only think of Red Dead 2 at launch. Also Destiny's 2 PC implementation is weird cause you need to adjust the brightness in SDR to get a good result in HDR.

 

[MrBS]

Bad HDR should be turned off, especially those cheap Samsung tvs with low low nits and no wide colour gamut, amazing those TVs can be advertised as having HDR at all.

 

[Prine]

No. Ruins the artistic intention of devs.

 

[MazeHaze]

I appreciate your post, but I already knew about this. It's not the cause of the issue I'm having. Thank you for trying to help.

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There is absolutely a black level mismatch somewhere in your settings for PS4/xbox. Neither display elevated blacks in HDR for me on my LG B7 and my LG C9. HDR looks great on both. Black bars are true black in Death Stranding. The Dolby Vision via HDMI elevated levels is definitely a thing though.

If a TV has local dimming and WCG or is OLED, HDR is great as long as the implementation is good (I've only turned it off in RDR2 and TLOU. Destiny 2 has some wonky crushed blacks too in HDR that are a separate issue from the calibration tool error Evil Boris describes, which I have never been able to replicate on my own displays tbh)

I have a Samsung NU6900 we got as a budget screen for one of our spare rooms, this has "HDR" but it looks like SDR with the backlight maxed out to me. I've owned a bunch of HDR displays and most were/are great. I also briefly owned the Sony 850D which is an IPS panel with no local dimming that puts out like 1000 nits. HDR looked like POOP on that one, even worse than the "HDR" samsung, it got returned immediately.

 

[nded]

Bad HDR can really fuck up an image, so no.

 

[Iron Eddie]

Solo, A Star Wars Story looks very washed out in HDR. I take it that was the way it was filmed, terrible.

 

[Landford]

My philips 6654 50" is a night and day difference between no HDR and HDR. In Destiny 2, specifically, everything pops out more, more vivid colors and brighter highlights. Only problem is that the dark areas are REALLY dark, but that seems to be more of a Destiny 2 problem than the TV.

 

[Th3BranMan]

Fake HDR / poor HDR implementation is awful and I frequently find myself disabling HDR on my set for games like Red Dead / Fallout 76. HDR, if done correctly, should lead to eye popping colors and dazzling bright imagery. Yet too often are games presenting HDR as a muddled mess of washed out colors, horrible contrast ratios, and on occasion, color banding.

Like others have stated - do it right, or not at all.

 

[Deadceptor]

A lacking in-game HDR calibration is already a sign of bad/fake HDR to me. So SDR is definitely better than shitty half baked HDR.

 

[klastical]

Bad hdr activly ruins games. RDR2 looked much worse with HDR on in the beginning.

 

[EvilBoris]

I think as long as it doesn't look worse than the game in the SDR reference version, then a mediocre one is still valuable
Even at that level, there are still some minor benefits.

Obviously not beneficial if it is so stringently controlled it is unusably dim.

 

[Flandy]

I think as long as it doesn't look worse than the game in the SDR reference version, then a mediocre one is still valuable
Even at that level, there are still some minor benefits.

Obviously not beneficial if it is so stringently controlled it is unusably dim.

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I've found straight up bad HDR to be rather rare. Even when HDR is mediocre I find that it usually isn't worse than an SDR presentation. The only really garbage HDR implementations I can think of off the top of my head are RDR2 Cinematic mode, Witcher 3, and Nier Automata.

 

[EvilBoris]

I've found straight up bad HDR to be rather rare. Even when HDR is mediocre I find that it usually isn't worse than an SDR presentation. The only really garbage HDR implementations I can think of off the top of my head are RDR2 Cinematic mode, Witcher 3, and Nier Automata.

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I think RDR2 cinematic mode kind of falls into that let's be doggedly "reference" in our output with a total disregard for the players who will play your game.
Like the Mandalorian and a few other HDR movie releases.

 

[Hugare]

TLOU Remastered does the stylistic thing with lots of murky grey in dark areas instead of black just like in the modern Resident Evil games. People complain all the time because they're expecting pure blackness in areas but it looks all grey. Some games were just made that way. Games like God of War, Gears 5, Horizon Zero Dawn had good HDR implementations IIRC.

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It wasnt like that on the PS3, and that pisses me off

This "grayish" presentation fucked up specially the downtown area of the game. It looks horrible.

Don't know why Naughty Dog never fixed it in a patch or something. I believe that was a deliberately change, to improve visibility, but it was unnecessary and for the worse.

Anyway, SDR is prefferable to Bad HDR, always

Thats how I play RDR 2 since HDR in that game is atrocious, even post patch

 

[Flandy]

I think RDR2 cinematic mode kind of falls into that let's be doggedly "reference" in our output with a total disregard for the players who will play your game.
Like the Mandalorian and a few other HDR movie releases.

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Question. Is the Cinematic mode actually attempting to mimic "cinema" or is just it fake HDR like Witcher 3 and Nier Automata? Can't say I've ever seen a 4k blu ray with HDR that looks worse than the SDR version lol

 

[Pulp]

Red Dead Redemption 2 is a good example of bad usage of HDR, so no HDR rather than bad

 

[Deleted member 50232]

Nope. SDR is better than bad HDR. RDR2 comes to mind, certainly pre patch.

 

[plagiarize]

Bad? No. Mediocre. Sure. Middle of the road HDR beats SDR easily.

 

[deathsaber]

No because bad HDR usually either means things are so dark to be near invisible (half the Dolby Vision shit on Disney plus right now), or for things to look incredibly overbright and washed out. No HDR might not be as shiny or extreme, but you at least get a normal balance of colors.

 

[DixieDean82]

On or not, I can't notice it anyway.

 

[The Albatross]

Yes, bad HDR can make games worse. Madden '19 or '20 had really bad HDR at least on my TCL TV (and HDR heads, I know, some TVs have like legit HDR and others don't or something, just forgive me I'm not an expert), and it made the game look much, much worse... Like every outdoor game was being played overcast, or like the stadium lights weren't turned on. If you use replay mode they looked good, but while playing the game it looked terrible. I thought it was just the graphical style of the game, until I played it on my Xbox One S on my older TV that didn't support HDR and I was like "wait..... this looks way better wtf...." and then I turned off HDR on my 4K TV and played the game and it looked much better, like what I expected it to. I wasn't crazy in teh end and this ended up being a bug that they fixed.

Otherwise I have a really hard time noticing HDR. I remember when HDR came out and everybody was like "This is the future!" "this is more NExtGen than 4K!" And like... I felt like I was blind or something... Because like, ok sometimes it looks better to me, but honestly like....... I couldn't tell if it was *better* or just different. But I think I'm a broken person.

As a person who plays a lot of RDR2 I should probably turn it off. I think I have to turn it off system wide though, which is annoying to me, rather than game by game.

 

[EvilBoris]

Question. Is the Cinematic mode actually attempting to mimic "cinema" or is just it fake HDR like Witcher 3 and Nier Automata? Can't say I've ever seen a 4k blu ray with HDR that looks worse than the SDR version lol

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Live, Die, Repeat is painfully hard to watch in anything but pitch black