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Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
I'm asking because it occurred to me, on the rare times that I stream, I get DMCA violation notifications and therefore get muted portions of my streams, or the VOD won't actually get archived, and I'd like to know what the actual difference between playing licensed music at a private function at someone's house, vs playing it on my own stream to probably less then 10 people.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,800
well, to perform or display a work publicly means:

(1) to perform or display it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered; or

(2) to transmit or otherwise communicate a performance or display of the work to a place specified by clause (1) or to the public, by means of any device or process, whether the members of the public capable of receiving the performance or display receive it in the same place or in separate places and at the same time or at different times.

17 USC § 101

so that's why showing a movie or playing a record at your home is fine and distinguishable from playing on a stream that any member of the public can access

your local coffee shop, restaurant, bar, or retail that plays music for its patrons is supposed to have a public performance license -- i would guess that some of them don't though, but who is going to go after them?
 
OP
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
Streams are monetized?
Not necessarily. If you're not an affiliate on Twitch, ads aren't run. You don't have a sub button or anything. Technically, your only revenue source would be a hypothetical donation button if you have that set up.

If I had the option to, I'd actually consent to revoking my affiliate status just to stream licensed music so as not to make money, just because it would make that much of a difference in my enjoyment of streaming, and hopefully would make the actual stream experience more enjoyable for my audience.
 

pizzaparty

Member
Oct 28, 2017
777
You don't need a license for a private event. What does and doesn't constitute a private event can be complicated.
 

Dest

Has seen more 10s than EA ever will
Coward
Jun 4, 2018
14,106
Work
No, it is a private gathering.

If your house party is open to the public though technically yes. But shut the fuck up. Don't give them ideas.
 

Wonky Mump

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,619
The difference is you're broadcasting publicly and as such you're governed by the rules and licenses of DMCA.

Private events don't need a license for music.

If the muted VODs concerns you, learn how to use a VOD audio track to separate the music in your streams.
 
OP
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
well, to perform or display a work publicly means:

(1) to perform or display it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered; or

(2) to transmit or otherwise communicate a performance or display of the work to a place specified by clause (1) or to the public, by means of any device or process, whether the members of the public capable of receiving the performance or display receive it in the same place or in separate places and at the same time or at different times.

17 USC § 101

so that's why showing a movie or playing a record at your house is fine and distinguishable from playing on a stream that any member public can access
So the law is indifferent to the actual amount of people, it's only concerned about a hypothetical situation where people lay their naughty eyes on something that's licensed without paying for it.

I mean I guess.

No fun allowed 🤷
 

lostsupper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
130
If the copyright holders could enforce bans against music at house parties they would. So fuck them.
 
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
No, it is a private gathering.

If your house party is open to the public though technically yes. But shut the fuck up. Don't give them ideas.
Yeah, I mean that's sort of the modus of this whole convo. I think that the actual amount of money that a hypothetical stream of under 10 people potentially could've garnered universal records or whoever is so small that it would make no difference anyway.

It'd never happen, but it'd be cool if there was an agreed upon revenue cut that could be given to any music distributor based on monetization of the stream, but of course, we're never going to have that conversation.
 
OP
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
If the copyright holders could enforce bans against music at house parties they would. So fuck them.
Yeah, seriously. DMCA and copyright laws are unbelievably stupid. Being a content creator is a balancing act of walking on eggshells praying you don't get nuked by some greedy IP owner.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,800
So the law is indifferent to the actual amount of people, it's only concerned about a hypothetical situation where people lay their naughty eyes on something that's licensed without paying for it.

I mean I guess.

No fun allowed 🤷

you are free to obtain a public performance license for any music you want to broadcast on your stream (lol)
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,908

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,328
Did OP just admit to a crime?

robocop-dead-or-alive-youre-coming-with-me.gif
 
OP
OP
Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
Did OP just admit to a crime?
No! For the record I never play music on stream, and if I do, it's music that is ok to use, and if it isn't you're probably wrong, and if you aren't then I'm probably allowed to use it anyway, and if I'm not then I never play music on stream.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,800
ASCAP will absolutely go after them in the US. Many countries have something similar. https://www.insideradio.com/free/co...cle_61ff2d2a-7163-11ee-8c06-9362c4eba5c8.html

right, i guess it's a matter of how big you are. like if i go to some hole in the wall restaurant run by immigrants playing pop music i would bet that they do not have any license, but i don't think anyone would bother with them.

regardless, if you are told you are violating the law and broadcasting music at your business without licensing that music but keep doing it anyway, i don't see how it would be a surprise you would get sued.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,703
Yeah, seriously. DMCA and copyright laws are unbelievably stupid. Being a content creator is a balancing act of walking on eggshells praying you don't get nuked by some greedy IP owner.

It's more walking on egg shells praying that someone PRETENDING to some greedy ip owners nukes you.

I still have videos that are muted from some random ip farm based out of Iran who tried to copyright gun shot sounds from a public library.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,120
At a private house party, usually not. If you're running a commercial business and anybody from the public can attend, then usually, yeah, you're commercially distributing the music/video/whatever. Similar to how bars/restaurants need a special subscription to cable/TV to broadcast, and why many bars have to charge a fee to broadcast a premium sports event, they're not supposed to just stream it or w/e. There's a little dumpy bar down the street from me and I go there randomly, and sometimes I get there at ~9pm and they want a $30 cover, which is fuckin nuts for the place (which is always no cover, it's a townie bar), but it's because they're broadcasting a UFC fight that night and it costs them like ~$1500 to broadcast because of the max occupancy.

It's common enough in a restaurant/bar for an employee to take over the audio and stream from non-commercial service, but yeah there have been lawsuits over it. Most streaming services/creators don't pay attention to small stakes, but if you're a big commercial business eventually they will.

But yeah your stream VOD can't play copyrighted music. This is why music from GTA gets cut out of VoD or people mute music audio on their streams. I think it's a little ironic that you're frustrated being a content creator that other content creators don't want their content used commercially in your content... or at least want to be compensated for it.
 
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Wonky Mump

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,619
No! For the record I never play music on stream, and if I do, it's music that is ok to use, and if it isn't you're probably wrong, and if you aren't then I'm probably allowed to use it anyway, and if I'm not then I never play music on stream.
This is a bad response that needs clarifying - is what you're comparing to about music in-game for example? To which the publisher has paid rights for that doesn't cover public exhibition to which streaming on a platform such as Twitch counts as? To which some games have "streamer mode" options.

Yeah I agree that it's kinda shit but your "being a content creator" argument is a bit shit here imo.
 
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
It's more walking on egg shells praying that someone PRETENDING to some greedy ip owners nukes you.

I still have videos that are muted from some random ip farm based out of Iran who tried to copyright gun shot sounds from a public library.
100%, you also have to balance the fact that TOS on ALL of these websites changes every 2 weeks. I have a video that I got a copyright strike for on YouTube for a TOS violation, a video that I uploaded TEN YEARS AGO. It wasn't in violation back then, and I'm supposed to pay THAT close of attention to every TOS change and make sure every single video of mine doesn't violate whatever bullshit new changes they make?
 
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
This is a bad response that needs clarifying - is what you're comparing to about music in-game for example? To which the publisher has paid rights for that doesn't cover public exhibition to which streaming on a platform such as Twitch counts as?
This was a joke response? Was that not obvious?
 

Klotera

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,556
your local coffee shop, restaurant, bar, or retail that plays music for its patrons is supposed to have a public performance license -- i would guess that some of them don't though, but who is going to go after them?

There's a whole market of devices dedicated to retail music, where I assume the licensing is part of the cost. Techmoan on YouTube has a few videos with retail background music devices, old and new. This is a just a couple:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_5DPvPiUMY

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNG8Qy782Iw
 
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
There's a whole market of devices dedicated to retail music, where I assume the licensing is part of the cost. Techmoan on YouTube has a few videos with retail background music devices, old and new. This is a just a couple:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_5DPvPiUMY

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNG8Qy782Iw

This has me thinking that maybe there should actually be a path to licensing your livestream in a similar way to how retail does, that would permit using music in a public stream.
 
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
If you want to continue using their services, yes.
This kind of response is obviously not reading the intent of my message. I fully understand the rules, but that's actually archaic. There are people who have uploaded 10000 videos on youtube over the span of 10 years, what are they actually intended to do here. What's being asked is actually impossible short of having an army of legal experts at your side.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,302
I think for your house party analogy it would be different if you charged entry to the party. Bars and restaurants don't pay the same price as Joe Consumer does for Pay per View. They pay based on occupancy maximum. I think music works the same way
 
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
Messy wording on your side, should have ended with "/s"

As I said in my first response, if you're that concerned about VOD muting music played you should learn how to use separate VOD audio tracks in your streaming setup.
I'm sorry but it's very clearly sarcastic. I shouldn't need to spell it out for you, lol. It's pretty heavy handed, especially with the repeating of the initial line.
 
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
I think for your house party analogy it would be different if you charged entry to the party. Bars and restaurants don't pay the same price as Joe Consumer does for Pay per View. They pay based on occupancy maximum. I think music works the same way
That's something I was thinking about as well. It's just something I was interested in having a discussion about for this exact purpose. It's cool to have everyone's perspective on it, if nothing else just because it gives me perspective that I just didn't have before.
 

Wonky Mump

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,619
I'm sorry but it's very clearly sarcastic. I shouldn't need to spell it out for you, lol. It's pretty heavy handed, especially with the repeating of the initial line.
I wouldn't go assuming people can pick up what you post as sarcastic comments on the internet - especially people who don't speak English natively and need to translate/look for context.
 
OP
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
I wouldn't go assuming people can pick up what you post as sarcastic comments on the internet - especially people who don't speak English natively and need to translate/look for context.
Whether I'm at fault or you are is irrelevant. Maybe as a more tactful approach, don't approach something with an accusatory tone, and try for something more balanced and impartial instead of characterizing something you're explicitly asking for more context on?

Also, I wouldn't even know that you don't speak English natively, so why try and hold that against me?
 

septentrion2

Member
Apr 11, 2023
1,830
This kind of response is obviously not reading the intent of my message. I fully understand the rules, but that's actually archaic. There are people who have uploaded 10000 videos on youtube over the span of 10 years, what are they actually intended to do here. What's being asked is actually impossible short of having an army of legal experts at your side.

I am not a youtuber so I don't know what youtube's process is - I would assume that when a posted video violates TOS, the account owner is notified and the video is either de-listed, de-monetized, or outright deleted?
If that is the case, then that is the answer to your question of "what are they actually intended to do" - De-list or delete the videos that violate the TOS.

if people want to use the platform, they gotta play by the rules, no matter how tough it might be to keep up with them.
 

teruterubozu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,975
well, to perform or display a work publicly means:

(1) to perform or display it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered; or

(2) to transmit or otherwise communicate a performance or display of the work to a place specified by clause (1) or to the public, by means of any device or process, whether the members of the public capable of receiving the performance or display receive it in the same place or in separate places and at the same time or at different times.

17 USC § 101

so that's why showing a movie or playing a record at your home is fine and distinguishable from playing on a stream that any member of the public can access

your local coffee shop, restaurant, bar, or retail that plays music for its patrons is supposed to have a public performance license -- i would guess that some of them don't though, but who is going to go after them?

You'd be surprised. They go after them hard, especially lately in this age of social media. "Here's a video of my friend's band playing Journey last night at Rick's Cafe!"
 
OP
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
I am not a youtuber so I don't know what youtube's process is - I would assume that when a posted video violates TOS, the account owner is notified and the video is either de-listed, de-monetized, or outright deleted?
If that is the case, then that is the answer to your question of "what are they actually intended to do" - De-list or delete the videos that violate the TOS.

if people want to use the platform, they gotta play by the rules, no matter how tough it might be to keep up with them.
So, sure. This is correct, but there's also the problem of copyright strikes. If you're in violation of the rules in 3 separate cases, no matter when the system decided to act upon it, but once you are, your account is deleted. You can appeal and have it restored in rare cases and misunderstandings/actual YouTube error, but if you have multiple old videos that are public and that now violate TOS and the algorithm decided to hit you with a triple whammy, there is quite literally nothing you can do. Livelihood potentially instantly destroyed because you don't have the ability to read adjustments to TOS and reflect how that can affect every single video you've uploaded. It's a tall order.
 

Wonky Mump

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,619
Whether I'm at fault or you are is irrelevant. Maybe as a more tactful approach, don't approach something with an accusatory tone, and try for something more balanced and impartial instead of characterizing something you're explicitly asking for more context on?

Also, I wouldn't even know that you don't speak English natively, so why try and hold that against me?
Never said anything to hold against you but reading your original post and some of the responses you made it's appeared like someone complaining because they can't play the music they want on a Twitch stream, and then tried playing a 'I'm a content creator' card which just doesn't work. If you stream on any platform you should understand the rules of the platform and what is and isn't allowed. The comparison you tried to make about playing music on a publicly viewable internet stream just because it's viewed by like 10 people to a private house party was honestly a strange one to begin with.

Anyway, to prevent derailing your thread further I will bow out.
 
OP
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Jera

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
223
I am not a youtuber so I don't know what youtube's process is - I would assume that when a posted video violates TOS, the account owner is notified and the video is either de-listed, de-monetized, or outright deleted?
If that is the case, then that is the answer to your question of "what are they actually intended to do" - De-list or delete the videos that violate the TOS.

if people want to use the platform, they gotta play by the rules, no matter how tough it might be to keep up with them.
Again, I'm really not arguing about the actual logistics of the question. I'm stating that I am a single person, and I just don't have the time to sit there and review every single video I've ever published every time TOS is updated. So I guess, I should probably just delist all of my videos and shut down my account.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,302
That's something I was thinking about as well. It's just something I was interested in having a discussion about for this exact purpose. It's cool to have everyone's perspective on it, if nothing else just because it gives me perspective that I just didn't have before.


So to expand on this a bit. If you play music or sports in a public environment but your business doesn't make money from food and drink as a base then you don't pay for the public license fee that's why you can play movies, sports and music at Best Buy because for the most part people dont go there with that express reason. But like I said if you go to Buffalos Wild Wings or Hooters they will spend a few grand to 5 figures based on the Fire Marshalls Occupancy for PPVs. Their other licenses (Expressed Written Consent ) should be included with the contract of the Service provider. They pay a handsome monthly fee for Sunday Ticket and NBA League Pass etc...
 

FizzMino

Shinra Employee
Member
Sep 15, 2022
3,178
Colorado, USA
your local coffee shop, restaurant, bar, or retail that plays music for its patrons is supposed to have a public performance license -- i would guess that some of them don't though, but who is going to go after them?

Oh they will 100% go after you. There are companies that you can pay to play music in your business and it covers the licensing issues. I think the company I work for actually pays two different companies to cover all the music we play here and we are a mid sized company of like 180 employees.
 

Dhx

Member
Sep 27, 2019
1,731

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,176
right, i guess it's a matter of how big you are. like if i go to some hole in the wall restaurant run by immigrants playing pop music i would bet that they do not have any license, but i don't think anyone would bother with them.
There are people who are paid to go around and report on these things. There are also a lot of disgruntled employees that call in on these things. ASCAP are absolutely equal opportunity assholes and do not care how deep the pockets might be.
 

9wilds

Member
Jan 1, 2022
3,666
Yeah, seriously. DMCA and copyright laws are unbelievably stupid. Being a content creator is a balancing act of walking on eggshells praying you don't get nuked by some greedy IP owner.

The law is there to protect the artists, not the users. But it's not stupid, really.