Is it okay to support developers with ideologies you don’t support?
- Thread starter Fart Master
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I want to avatar post this so hard
it's too early for this thread, im out
I think people should not only be alarmed by Vavra and his misogynist actions and far-right ideology, but also with the game itself since it adamantly creates an all-White historical space that feeds into contemporary white nationalist fantasies about the past (which also aren't historically accurate).
Jeez Lime, you're really pushing the "I'm going to generalize every single person on Resetera if they even diverge 1% away from what I think".
I don't agree with the idea of projecting wider problems with society onto all developers that happen to come from that country. To me that is almost as crazy as not wanting to buy American games because the population voted for Trump (are there really people who do this? I've seen the idea brought up a few times.)
That seems like a twisted kind of discrimination of its own to me.
That said, Japan's widespread problem with both misogyny and xenophobia is extremely well known. It's not hard to believe that this would influence some developers from that part of the world.
Except they are historically accurate. You're just angry because the historical reality doesn't suit your progressive ideals.
People like you are what made nonsense like Margaret of Anjou turning from teenage white girl into middleaged black women on BBC possible.
"I'm <member of oppressed group>, and I'm ok with <oppression>" is not really a defensible position. See House Negro (particularly Malcom X's usage of the term).
Misogyny on one society's part does not justify any other kind of prejudice or discrimination. Also, is Japanese society really that much more misogynistic? What percentage of CEOs or politicians are women I hour country?
one thing is someone having a shitty opinion and another is kevin spacey who actually hurt people.
User Warned: Promoting and suggesting piracy
So I guess if you're comfortable separating the art from the artist, pirate the game in question - you can play it but not support them. Problem solved??
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The problem is that americans are the privileged ones here, trying to use their position to enforce their own views on team from much poorer country made up of group that's been opressed through history and is now marginalized in western society. This is essentially attempt at cultural colonialism. Just because some of americans attempting it aren't white as snow doesn't change anything.
They are not historically accurate though? Maybe you should read up on recent scholarly work before you talk about things you are clearly not very knowledgeable about. See this post by the same person you quoted:
Do whatever you feel is right.
Personally it'd have to be widely spread throughout the studio for me to boycott them, just 1 guy out of hundreds or even dozens isn't enough for me to completely lose interest in something (assuming I'd be looking forward to it before finding out). But I don't see anything wrong with being far more strict with this stuff.
Personally it'd have to be widely spread throughout the studio for me to boycott them, just 1 guy out of hundreds or even dozens isn't enough for me to completely lose interest in something (assuming I'd be looking forward to it before finding out). But I don't see anything wrong with being far more strict with this stuff.
I wasn't saying "all people", but those people "who are defending Vavra, gaslighting what it means to be alt-right, obfuscating the issue on the white-washing of history, and the white supremacist misogynist harassment done by Vavra and his followers"
->
Vavra actually hurts people and has been reinforcing the far-right elements and misogyny in games culture
Pushing harmful ideologies hurt people, how is this a foreign concept to you?
Listen to your own advice and do some research. You don't seen to realize Europe is big continent and was filled with many verious countries of very different situations. All those sources you point to describe diversity in western/souther Europe, where it was pretty common because of trade routes and other historical events. Kingdom Come is set in bohemian countryside, where there wasn;'t any real diversity as americans see it (plenty of diversity in european way of thinking though).
Even today Czechia is white as hell. If you're not living in big city you might spend your entire life not seeing even one black person in real life. Just because there are tons of people of color in London or Paris doesn't change that.
Europe is quite literally the second smallest continent....
I... kinda make maps for a living.
Thanks for that post. I don't think that Warhorse have ever argued that there were no black people at all in 15th century Bohemia. Their research even indicates that there are two documented cases of black persons present at the court of Charles IV. 15th century Prague was a major hub for culture and commerce so it is quite likely that other ethnicities would be present there.
However, the game does not take place in Prague or even smaller cities like Plzen or Tabor. The game is set in a 9 km² rural area around the town and monastery of Sazava. The chance of a black person living here would be very, very small. Of course, they could include a black person in this community, however unlikely this would be. This also means they would have to spend a significant portion of their game on exploring race relations in 15th century Bohemia. Given the unlikeliness of this event and the narrow scope of the game, I understand very well why they do not want to do this. Attributing this to some sort of malice on part of the developer seems very far-fetched and unfair to me.
Personal anecdote: I was in Prague and Brno last summer and black people are not a common sight. At all. It does not seem very hard to believe that there were no black people in 15th century Sazava.
The Cumans actually play a large role in the game.
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Frankly, the game doesn't look particularly inspired or engaging, so not supporting the creator is kind of a foregone conclusion for me. I'll wait for Butterlord, thanks.
Bohemia was not completely isolated back then. They had lots of trade with the rest of the Roman Empire. Such trade brought in e.g. Jewish people. During this time, Europe dealt with Mongol and Tatar invasions, which made people move around a lot. This caused migration to Bohemia as well.
Of course, but this is countryside, while divertsity was mostly found in big cities. And most of all to americans diveristy is pretty much "lots of black people" and that's what the complains about Kingdom Come are. The devs already said there will be jews, romani people and other ethnicities in the game.
There are no historical data that black folk existed on the tiny portion of land the game covers. Is it possible some random dude stumbled into that place? Sure. But there's no proof about it, so pretending that lack of such character in the game is somehow historicall falsehood is utterly bizzare.
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Lime please, it's ok to stop posting. Learn something about where Vavra came from.....or why even bother, sorry just my emotion is talking and I could not make it into some argument, but to just saying that he is a Nazi. Just what fuck. Czech "literal Nazi", really? Have your skipped your history classes? What is your definition of Nazi?
Let me guess, someone who disagrees with utopian philosophy? And I have been lurker in "the old place", I have no basis on this, but let say, you totally went out of the way of argument, "just feelings now, shhh". So I am going to do that now as well.
I am a getting some strong Amir0x vibes from your posts, because they appears to be, at least in my eyes, really extreme.
By the way, what's your take on the David cage situation, which actually harm people in real life? Not on some social something network, which no sane person cares about?
Thanks in advance, for answer.
And yes, I know the guy personally, I stated this in this very thread, so I might be under his Nazi command which may have swayed me towards his anti-everything-human stance on everything.
By the way, I am somewhat getting angry on Dan, just because I know him, that I feel that is right to protect him from stupid internet comments, even though it's okay for me to stop posting too. I am really conflicted in what is right thing to do. But "literal Nazi"....I have to react, I am sorry. I am fully aware that my feelings does not matter at all and if my arguments are bad, then fine. Tell me. But let say I had a grandfather who actually fought Nazis and this sort of rhetoric that "Nazi" is someone who I don't agree with. I like my grandfather a lot, so that's why I might be sensible for such words. I am conflicted if I should even give a fuck, but something inside me do care. So I had to wrote this piece of probably useless piece of text, just to express at very fucking least, that the Nazi's was not that nice, how those "Nazis" in current definition are. They were hardly human and something who (sadly not "is") was my relative, told me a lot of stuff about them and....
....fuck, why do I even care.
Let me guess, someone who disagrees with utopian philosophy? And I have been lurker in "the old place", I have no basis on this, but let say, you totally went out of the way of argument, "just feelings now, shhh". So I am going to do that now as well.
I am a getting some strong Amir0x vibes from your posts, because they appears to be, at least in my eyes, really extreme.
By the way, what's your take on the David cage situation, which actually harm people in real life? Not on some social something network, which no sane person cares about?
Thanks in advance, for answer.
And yes, I know the guy personally, I stated this in this very thread, so I might be under his Nazi command which may have swayed me towards his anti-everything-human stance on everything.
By the way, I am somewhat getting angry on Dan, just because I know him, that I feel that is right to protect him from stupid internet comments, even though it's okay for me to stop posting too. I am really conflicted in what is right thing to do. But "literal Nazi"....I have to react, I am sorry. I am fully aware that my feelings does not matter at all and if my arguments are bad, then fine. Tell me. But let say I had a grandfather who actually fought Nazis and this sort of rhetoric that "Nazi" is someone who I don't agree with. I like my grandfather a lot, so that's why I might be sensible for such words. I am conflicted if I should even give a fuck, but something inside me do care. So I had to wrote this piece of probably useless piece of text, just to express at very fucking least, that the Nazi's was not that nice, how those "Nazis" in current definition are. They were hardly human and something who (sadly not "is") was my relative, told me a lot of stuff about them and....
....fuck, why do I even care.
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You purchasing their games doesn't mean you support their actions, and there's nothing you can do to really control their actions anyway and you're getting something in return, a video game.
It's still a large land mass though. Especially when you consider how transportation worked in medieval era compared to today. And most of all, it's incredibly diverse plece shaped by long and turbulent history. You can't assume anything that was true for France or UK will be also true for some eastern countries. Americans have very skewed view of culture and ethnicity, to them Europe is pretty much one country and european white people are all one big happy family. The reality is completely different.
Well mongol invasion was like 300 years before stopped thousands of km before bohemia and jewish, romani, turks are still ethnically white and from tatars there are cumans which are actually part of invading army.
Its like americans see europe as one single entity with single same history and dont see opression between two "white" cultures as an opression.
Its kinda offending me as a czech person to be honest
You know I have no idea what this was about, so I decided to search it (at work no less so I'll probably be fired for the results).
All the results I get (that are complaining about it) are from british conservative tabloids and a site that is lovingly named whitegenocideproject.com
Any other result talking about it doesn't even seem to bring up the fact that she's black.
So is there actually a controversy to this "nonsense"? Or are people trying to make it that way, and given that this happened a year or two ago, failed? Is there anything inherently wrong with casting a minority to play a role that is already overserved and represented?
Edit: Also the Youtube comments for a clip I saw were just people complaining about political correctness. Sooooooo business as usual, same thing they would complain about whether or not the character was real or imaginary.
I feel the same way, but on the one hand "being offended" in here is not an argument...so my logic told me to stop care about this, but on the other other hand emotions tell me to keep care about this. and I am really conflicted on all of this....
No offense, but I don't often hear Turkish and Romani people described as ethnically white.
Mongol invasion stopped before the game took place, which means that the descendants of displaced people would still live in the areas they were displaced to. And the Mongols reached all the way to Poland.
And this.
Well the word wasnt really an argumnet just an emotional reaction to what i would call cultural collonization. The american progressives or however should i call them seem to fail to inderstand that europe isnt one single entity but very diverse landmass with ton of individual nation, ethnicities and cultures with very bloody history of oppression.
yes if you're talking about size, absolutely no if you're talking about population numbers which is pretty much the most important metric here, definitely even more during the middle ages
I would go one step further and say that, geographically, Europe is not a continent at all. You can make an argument for Europe as a continent as a social construct, but in the geographical sense of the word, I don't see it.
I know it's a long thread, but I have to ask you what kind of question is that really?
If you buy a game (or anything really) from someone you're automatically supporting them, you don't get to say "oh but I don't support their ideas", because you're factually already supporting them.
If you agree with their ideas is a different question, but you're in fact supporting them regardless.
I mean it's a Shakespearen play in a series called Hollow Crown (Henry VI) so it's not actually that historically accurate in the first place so I really don't see what's wrong with a Black actress playing the part in a Shakespearen play. Shakespeare isn't historically accurate, and the first people who would have played Magaret of Anjou would have been men, so I don't think Shakespeare cared much about accurate casting either.
I see a different issue. Their self-importateness, like the world revolves around them and their ideas and stuff like that. I am not anti-american at all, but those who you describe as american progressives seems to be educated on everything, everywhere in the world and they are always right no matter what. This is what bothers me. We cannot even have a discussion about this sort of thing, because some people claim to have truth patent™ and you cannot do anything to listen to you. Which I hoped would be left in "the old place", sadly seems like it's not the case.
That said, Era is still the best community on the internet, but man, there are still some self-centered, self-important arrogant, ignorant people in here. Self-awareness, respect for others, critical thinking? Nah, fuck that...
Nah, I don't feel there was a lot of controversy. It was just incredibly silly thing to do and more of a laughing matter than anything to get angry about. Yeah, idiot nationalist tried to stir shit up, but they always do. Normal people just went "LOL" and moved on.
THey're white. At least by american standards. Now, by european it's more complex. Any sensible person will describe them as white, but this doesn't mean it's the correct type of white for some people. In europe hate eachother ethnicities far more than we do general races. Afterall to nazis slavic people weren't really white either. Brexiters decided to leave mostly because of eastern european migration and even among slavs nationalist spew hate towards other groups from exactly the same ethnic family.
When it comes to xenophobia americans are pretty much kindergarten, while Europe is in the proces of making a doctorate.
especially more than 500 years ago, Europe has always been extremely fragmented and divided(anyone remembers those two small things known as WWI and WWII not even a century ago?), It's only in VERY recent history that european countries started to be more friendly with each other and started sharing ideas and traditions.
As a continent Europe has a multitude of different cultures but those cultures especially in the past only really existed within each countries's borders, for example you can say that during the middle ages Europe had a significant Arab presence, and that is technically true, but it was only in the south in places like spain and southern italy, the north had a completely different culture but we still call everything Europe for convenience but when talking about a game that describes a very small reality in the middle ages you need nuance in your analysis of the situation because the continent known as Europe is diverse yes, but also incredibly complex, quite possibly the most complex continent that ever existed.
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You make maps for a living so that makes you an expert on who existed in 15th century rural Bohemia? There are rural areas in that region, even today, where people can go their entire lives without seeing a black person.
Glad I'm not the only one who gets this vibe. It's the same sanctimonious, holier-than-thou bullshit that Amir0x used to pull. You're better off just putting him on ignore than wasting time debating him, every post from him, in every thread, is the same.
Im sure most of the developers on it aren't shitbags. Its just a personal choice you have to make. Ill still be buying the game. I can't just lock myself out of everything because everything has terrible people involved in every industry. I love Nintendo, but you better believe there probably are a ton of nationalist, racist assholes in the company making games. I mean come on its Japan. You just gotta know when you want to draw your line or let it slide.
That one destroyed me for the longest time.
At first I believed it was some kinda conspiracy against him, then I believed he was just crazy with brain damage, but then after a while the more I realized is that he made these actions... And I struggle to watch his content myself.
Thing is, I absolutely loved him in the ring, I remember my first time ever seeing him was his debut on WWF Monday Night Raw where he almost beat Triple H which was a huge thing at the time as this was during HHH's dominance as a heel. Then throughout the years his amazing wrestling skill and his personality, even his theme song all of these things were just really damn cool to me.
We'll never know what happened that night, but what we do know is that he was stable enough to place bible's next to their bodies and he killed the night previously then the very next day again. And he purposely put a towel on his neck to kill himself with less pain, so it does feel like he knew what he was doing.
It's so tragic...
Fun fact: there was a lot of cultural cross-pollination between Northern Europe and the Arab countries. The vikings reached the Arab countries in their travels and did significant trade with the Arabs
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