MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
I didn't say that VR improved upon every consumer technology. I said VR/AR together would do so. Even if everyone across the world always got sick via movement in VR, that still wouldn't change this, because you can still use it as a computing device without any issues.

What about PCs? They have the limitation of not being perfectly mobile. What about PCs in another context, being that they can't do spatial computing. That's a limitation by your rules.
You keep going back and forth with nonsense.

If VR/AR is to replace all consumer electronics that we know of now it has to do a better job at them otherwise there's no point.
So what? Why does it need to? As I said, every platform has limitations for some people. That doesn't mean they can't thrive.

Sorry Activision, don't release COD next year. I know Black Ops 4 broke sales records but some people can't enjoy it fully because they get motion sickness. Damn, better keep investing in developing that new platform that 100% of people can use comfortably. Don't bother with anything less.
VR carries a compilation of all the aforementioned limitations.

That's why it matters
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
A good game is a good game, even if it's unlike anything you've ever played before.

The reluctance to put AAA money into a VR game is 100% due to the fact that the market isn't large enough to justify that kind of expediture. And the market is so small because the tech is too expensive for mass consumption.

It has nothing to do with aversion to difference.
No. The tech is affordable. The market does not exist because the masses don't want VR
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
Other platforms have limitations now that VR is here. Whenever a new platform emerges, previous platforms suddenly have new limitations.

VR fixes audio, convoluted control schemes, and interaction.
What?

Audio is already fixed, controls are worse in VR and local interactions are cut off.

What the hell are you taking about here?

I still don't know if you are serious, lol
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
You keep going back and forth with nonsense.

If VR/AR is to replace all consumer electronics that we know of now it has to do a better job at them otherwise there's no point.

VR carries a compilation of all the aforementioned limitations.

That's why it matters
There's one concept you glossed over: Perfect VR/AR simulates every other form of media without limitation except
for the fact that you can't share your device with someone at the same time and that you have to wear something. Otherwise, you can throw up any amount of virtual screens of any size, which could be static, portable, built-in 3D, built-in lightfield effect, and can be shared with anyone anywhere that wears another HMD. All of this would allow for intelligent interface design using inputs like eye-tracking, hand-tracking.

Therefore, VR/AR will do everything that all other computing platforms do today (without sickness issues) on top of everything new it brings.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
What?

Audio is already fixed, controls are worse in VR and local interactions are cut off.

What the hell are you taking about here?

I still don't know if you are serious, lol
No. Audio is not fixed. It has actually regressed and was better in tech demos 20 years ago than it is today in AAA games. VR solves audio by allowing for spatial audio to feel natural. It's also going to jumpstart an audio revolution in audio propagation and consumer audio solutions that no audio headset manufacturer has tackled.

Controls are worse in VR? Okay, I didn't realize there were games that offer better control and intuitiveness in a video game than these:

https://gfycat.com/ablefearfulicelandicsheepdog
https://gfycat.com/TeemingImpureBoa

Local interactions are only cut off if you aren't playing asymmetrical games. In a few years, they will only be cut off by choice, as a mixed reality view will fix that.
 

Cth

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
1,813
Realistically, if someone solved motion sickness (for VR and non-VR application) like other breakthroughs it'd be nowhere near cost effective.

There's a device similar called MotionCure that's been available since 2016 and it costs $150.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Realistically, if someone solved motion sickness (for VR and non-VR application) like other breakthroughs it'd be nowhere near cost effective.

There's a device similar called MotionCure that's been available since 2016 and it costs $150.
Supposedly costs only a few dozen dollars to make. And the moment you get a big company like Facebook churning these out, they'll be plenty cheap. A Tobii eye tracker is $150 on Amazon from what I can see, any yet eye tracking will be common in VR in a few years.
 
Last edited:

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,592
No. The tech is affordable. The market does not exist because the masses don't want VR

The tech is not affordable - Not for mass consumption. It's currently sold as a $300-$800 accessory to accompany $300-$900+ base hardware. That's not mass market pricing. Few would spend $600 for a new console. The idea that the masses would view that sticker price as affordable is nonsense, imo.

Mass market pricing is what we had when kinect debuted at $150 standalone, $300 bundled with a console.

When we are talking about 1) A stand alone headset running modern VR games (and transitional games) console prices or 2) a headset bundled with hardware at a <$200 premium, then we are looking at pricing for mass consumption.
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
The tech is not affordable - Not for mass consumption. It's currently sold as a $300-$800 accessory to accompany $300-$900+ base hardware. That's not mass market pricing. Few would spend $600 for a new console. The idea that the masses would view that sticker price as affordable is nonsense, imo.

Mass market pricing is what we had when kinect debuted at $150 standalone, $300 bundled with a console.

When we are talking about 1) A stand alone headset running modern VR games (and transitional games) console prices or 2) a headset bundled with hardware at a <$200 premium, then we are looking at pricing for mass consumption.
You guys are saying VR will replace Phones, tablets, and computers all of which cost much more than $450 right now.

VR is currently available for the masses if they wanted it.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
This does not exist based on what we know about technology today.

That's it.
What? You can simulate a screen today, which means it already has the functionality of everything else built in. It's just low resolution and the interfaces are clearly not there yet, because hand / eye-tracking is not yet perfect.

You guys are saying VR will replace Phones, tablets, and computers all of which cost much more than $450 right now.

VR is currently available for the masses if they wanted it.
If my Oculus Rift had a resolution of 5500 x 5500 pixels per eye today, it would replace any 4K display in the world, and would also replace movie theaters - all the real world counterparts would be perfectly recreated in VR with the same quality.

VR/AR replacing other devices is a piece of cake because there is no extra cost to this aside from increasing specs which would happen for any device. Replacing other devices is just a side effect of the technology improving.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,723
You guys are saying VR will replace Phones, tablets, and computers all of which cost much more than $450 right now.

VR is currently available for the masses if they wanted it.

AR and VR will converge in the future and the same glasses will be able to do both, but the AR part of it is the one that will replace our smartphones. Try using the Hololens or the Magic Leap One so you can have an idea of what I'm talking about.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
There's one concept you glossed over: Perfect VR/AR simulates every other form of media without limitation except
for the fact that you can't share your device with someone at the same time and that you have to wear something. Otherwise, you can throw up any amount of virtual screens of any size, which could be static, portable, built-in 3D, built-in lightfield effect, and can be shared with anyone anywhere that wears another HMD. All of this would allow for intelligent interface design using inputs like eye-tracking, hand-tracking.

Therefore, VR/AR will do everything that all other computing platforms do today (without sickness issues) on top of everything new it brings.

How long until what you describe is available to the public?
I think it will be 15yrs. I hope sooner, but we don't even have consumer gen 1 of these ar/VR visors yet.
I don't suppose you know if there has been any talk about an upcoming device?
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,723
How long until what you describe is available to the public?
I think it will be 15yrs. I hope sooner, but we don't even have consumer gen 1 of these ar/VR visors yet.
I don't suppose you know if there has been any talk about an upcoming device?

I would definitely call what the Vive a Pro is capable of as the first gen version of a AR/VR headset. See the video below for a game that starts in augmented Reality and then completely transfers to a VR game.



The Sulon Q was a AR/VR capable headset from AMD that wasn't released as a consumer product. But the video below is another good example of what will be possible once AR/VR capable devices become more common.

 
Last edited:

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
How long until what you describe is available to the public?
I think it will be 15yrs. I hope sooner, but we don't even have consumer gen 1 of these ar/VR visors yet.
I don't suppose you know if there has been any talk about an upcoming device?
There will be different manifestations of this. By 2022, Oculus wants to release a VR headset that would real-time reconstruct reality (which gives you the AR part) and we'd have the intelligent interfaces (eye-tracking, hand-tracking) as well as high enough resolution to at least simulate any 1080p display. I doubt it will be comfortable enough for the average person in just 3 years, but I would expect the generation after that to use waveguide displays, giving us the same style of headset seen in Ready Player One. So by 2025, I expect it will be both feasible and at least reasonably comfortable to have a VR/AR hybrid.

During the same timeframe, AR glasses might very well be at least close to a pair of sunglasses. But this would only do AR so you would choose comfort over VR + more powerful AR, since reconstructing reality is a more powerful form of AR than what AR glasses will provide, as you can control every pixel, meaning you could go beyond Black Mirror levels of crazy and simply remove people from reality, both visually and audibly.

Beyond ~2025, it's hard to say, but I would expect the final form being a pair of sunglasses that blacks out and goes transparent and reconstructs reality all in one, would be 10-15 years away. At the very least, the tech from 2022-2025 will be already there for home use, at least if you don't mind a visor form factor.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I would definitely call what the Vive a Pro is capable of as the first gen version of a AR/VR headset. See the video below for a game that starts in augmented Reality and then completely transfers to a VR game.



Yes I suppose technically it is.
I'm more asking when will be the iPhone like moment for a smartphone replacement ar/VR device.

I actually had a dream of Tim Cook unveiling a Ar/VR device, it was more groundbreaking then the OG iPhone, I hope it happens.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Yes I suppose technically it is.
I'm more asking when will be the iPhone like moment for a smartphone replacement ar/VR device.

I actually had a dream of Tim Cook unveiling a Ar/VR device, it was more groundbreaking then the OG iPhone, I hope it happens.
VR and AR will have separate product paths for at least 10 years. But VR headsets will do AR during that time. AR glasses will just do AR.

Eventually, it's all one device and the two product lines form into one, maybe with rare exceptions.

Therefore, the iPhone moment has to happen twice. For VR, 2025 most likely. You need a standalone headset that does everything the 2022 high-end Oculus headset wants to do, and it needs to be a visor. For AR, again probably around the same time, though it's harder to say as it's further behind.

But this might even be pessimistic on the VR side. The original iPhone sold 6 million in a year. I would expect the 2025 headset would sell more in the same timeframe.
 
Last edited:

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,723
Yes I suppose technically it is.
I'm more asking when will be the iPhone like moment for a smartphone replacement ar/VR device.

I actually had a dream of Tim Cook unveiling a Ar/VR device, it was more groundbreaking then the OG iPhone, I hope it happens.

Just look at what the iPhone X and newer iPhones are capable on regards to AR. There are a bunch of AR apps that will just transfer to the AR glasses that Apple will release in a few years. That won't necessarily by the iPhone moment for AR glasses as there are no guarantees Apple will be able to release a product that becomes a mainstream hit right away, but you can be sure it will be the start of something big. Already there are some crazy AR apps out there that are only lacking the AR glasses interface to blow your brains out.




Apple insider says exciting new augmented reality glasses are just two years away
https://bgr.com/2018/08/15/apple-glasses-release-date-set-2020-insider-says/
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Just look at what the iPhone X and newer are capable on regards to AR. There are a bunch of AR apps that will just transfer to the AR glasses that Apple will release in a few years. That won't necessarily by the iPhone moment for AR glasses as there are not guarantees Apple will be able to release a product that becomes a mainstream hit right away, but you can be sure it will be the start of something big. Already there are some crazy AR apps out there that are only lacking the AR glasses interface to blow your brains out.



Apple insider says exciting new augmented reality glasses are just two years away
https://bgr.com/2018/08/15/apple-glasses-release-date-set-2020-insider-says/


Interesting.
when I said "iPhone moment" I meant it as just an example of when a leapfrog product which is like 2yrs ahead of all competition is unveiled.
 
Last edited:

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,723
Interesting, when I said "iPhone moment" I meant it as just an example of when a leapfrog product which is like 2yrs ahead of all competition is unveiled.

For me it means that too. There were smartphones available for years before the iPhone, but Apple jumped the smartphone evolution trend to create a product that was extremely easy to use relative to the other smartphones that were available at the time. With the Vive Pro and others like it, you can say that today we already have AR/VR capable devices. The question is who will create the iPhone equivalent moment for such a device.
 
Last edited:

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,005
London
For me it means that too. There were smartphones available for years before the iPhone, but Apple jumped the smartphone evolution trend to create a product that was extremely easy to use relative to the other smartphones that were available at the time. With the Vive Pro and others like it, you can already say that today we already have AR/VR capable devices. The question is who will create the iPhone equivalent moment for such a device.

Oculus Quest seems to be heading in that direction.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
For me it means that too. There were smartphones available for years before the iPhone, but Apple jumped the smartphone evolution trend to create a product that was extremely easy to use relative to the other smartphones that were available at the time. With the Vive Pro and others like it, you can already say that today we already have AR/VR capable devices. The question is who will create the iPhone equivalent moment for such a device.

Yes.

I hope DarthBuzzard is correct in his 2025 prediction. The video of the oculus guy who makes predictions does seem optimistic. But tech takes time.
Look at the time between the first oculus head set and the rift. However I do think oculus will be faster with iterations now they are more established and have Facebook money.
In a way oculus quest is pretty exciting, with things like virtual work spaces and social interaction with people with realistic 3d scanned avatars of yourself.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Yes.

I hope DarthBuzzard is correct in his 2025 prediction. The video of the oculus guy who makes predictions does seem optimistic. But tech takes time.
Look at the time between the first oculus head set and the rift. However I do think oculus will be faster with iterations now they are more established and have Facebook money.
In a way oculus quest is pretty exciting, with things like virtual work spaces and social interaction with people with realistic 3d scanned avatars of yourself.
If you're talking about Michael Abrash, he has actually been a little pessimistic. Things are moving so fast that his initial predictions are being surpassed, and those were already well beyond what people imagined of VR in that timeframe.

Last year, he said this: "We are just a year and a half along now, and I would say those predictions are holding up well. In fact, the truth is that I probably undershot, thanks to Facebook's growing investment in FRL, which allows us to push the boundaries of what it takes to build great experiences further and faster. "

He said it once before then as well. So things are definitely progressing rapidly.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
He has actually been a little pessimistic. Things are moving so fast that his initial predictions are being surpassed, and those were already well beyond what people imagined of VR in that timeframe.

I think the biggest advancement is oculus quest and its ability to map things onto reality.
The advancements are small though.
Ill be ready when it's like 3-4x the image quality of PSVR, wireless, less motion sickness, lots of games I want to play, excellent media capabilities and about £250
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
I think the biggest advancement is oculus quest and its ability to map things onto reality.
The advancements are small though.
Ill be ready when it's like 3-4x the image quality of PSVR, wireless, less motion sickness, lots of games I want to play, excellent media capabilities and about £250
Advancements are small from what we can buy now or for products this year, because everything is still generation 1. If you've seen Abrash's full talk, then you'd know that they are aiming for at least 14x the image quality of PSVR by 2022, along with the many breakthroughs needed to kick VR off.

They want to have an enormous leap between gen 1 and 2, on the level of 90s VR vs a 2016 headset.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Advancements are small from what we can buy now or for products this year, because everything is still generation 1. If you've seen Abrash's full talk, then you'd know that they are aiming for at least 14x the image quality of PSVR by 2022, along with the many breakthroughs needed to kick VR off.

They want to have an enormous leap between gen 1 and 2, on the level of 90s VR vs a 2016 headset.

Sorry, was looking for abrash's talk, don't suppose you have a link for me? Thanks.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,592
You guys are saying VR will replace Phones, tablets, and computers all of which cost much more than $450 right now.

VR is currently available for the masses if they wanted it.

This comment is pretty ridiculous.

it's been said that AR+VR will be the next evolution of personal computing... Eventually. Right now, there's no AR/VR device that can replace a cell phone. So why would "the masses" pay cell phone prices for VR just because it's "available". That argument doesn't make any sense. It's currently priced for enthusiasts - who will overlook the lack of utility for the price, because they want to be early adopters and to industry who can justify the cost as R&D.

The very first handheld cellphone sold for $4000. People thought it was a ridiculous gimmick that would only appeal to rich people who liked showing off. It would never replace payphones, which were everywhere and much cheaper to use. Initially, the only people who bought them were enthusiasts and businesses (sound familiar?) What happened? The tech got cheaper, smaller, and more utility was added- eventually the cost matched the value to the avg consumer. Then, they became mass market items.

We arent there yet with AR/VR. When a wearable device can functionally replace a cellphone, ONLY then will the masses consider paying as much as a cellphone for one. The masses won't consider paying cellphone prices for a device that can only play video games at home. A device that limited needs to be much cheaper to achieve mass market pricing - because it's just a gaming accessory, not a replacement to cellphones, tablets and computers.
 
Last edited:

Dr. Mario

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,042
Netherlands
If you're talking about Michael Abrash, he has actually been a little pessimistic. Things are moving so fast that his initial predictions are being surpassed, and those were already well beyond what people imagined of VR in that timeframe.

Last year, he said this: "We are just a year and a half along now, and I would say those predictions are holding up well. In fact, the truth is that I probably undershot, thanks to Facebook's growing investment in FRL, which allows us to push the boundaries of what it takes to build great experiences further and faster. "

He said it once before then as well. So things are definitely progressing rapidly.
Don't believe everything Michael "Presence is an incredibly powerful sensation, and it's unique to VR; there's no way to create it in any other medium " Abrash says. He needs to be bullish with the coming recession. Shareholders will ask why they're still investing in this niche thing when the inevitable stock collapse happens. If you think all of that stuff will be there in 2025, I think you're setting yourself up for a massive disappointment.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,723
Don't believe everything Michael "Presence is an incredibly powerful sensation, and it's unique to VR; there's no way to create it in any other medium " Abrash says. He needs to be bullish with the coming recession. Shareholders will ask why they're still investing in this niche thing when the inevitable stock collapse happens. If you think all of that stuff will be there in 2025, I think you're setting yourself up for a massive disappointment.

What problems do you have exactly with that comment?
 

Dr. Mario

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,042
Netherlands
Any examples of ways to achieve it outside of VR? Rather than just stating it's bullshit...
Sure, read a book (cf. transportation), watch a movie (cf. diegetic effect), do a training, or engage in any kind of make believe play activity. Our mind is constantly constructing alternative worlds we inhabit, VR just offloads some of the cognitive work more than certain other media (though not always better).

See also:
Lessiter, J., Freeman, J., Keogh, E., & Davidoff, J. (2001). A cross-media presence questionnaire: The ITC-Sense of Presence Inventory. Presence: Teleoperators & Virtual Environments, 10(3), 282-297.
IJsselsteijn, W. A. (2002). Elements of a multi-level theory of presence: Phenomenology, mental processing and neural correlates. Proceedings of PRESENCE, 2002, 245-259.
 

afrodubs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,176
Sure, read a book, watch a movie, do a training, or engage in any kind of make believe play activity. Our mind is constantly constructing alternative worlds we inhabit, VR just offloads some of the cognitive work.

See also:
Lessiter, J., Freeman, J., Keogh, E., & Davidoff, J. (2001). A cross-media presence questionnaire: The ITC-Sense of Presence Inventory. Presence: Teleoperators & Virtual Environments, 10(3), 282-297.
Ijsselsteijn, W. A. (2002). Elements of a multi-level theory of presence: Phenomenology, mental processing and neural correlates. Proceedings of PRESENCE, 2002, 245-259.
Have you tried good VR? As an avid reader, who watches movies a lot more than most, and also trains regularly.... These examples are way off.

Presence is believing you are somewhere else, not imagining you are.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,723
Sure, read a book, watch a movie, do a training, or engage in any kind of make believe play activity. Our mind is constantly constructing alternative worlds we inhabit, VR just offloads some of the cognitive work more than certain other media (though not always better).

See also:
Lessiter, J., Freeman, J., Keogh, E., & Davidoff, J. (2001). A cross-media presence questionnaire: The ITC-Sense of Presence Inventory. Presence: Teleoperators & Virtual Environments, 10(3), 282-297.
Ijsselsteijn, W. A. (2002). Elements of a multi-level theory of presence: Phenomenology, mental processing and neural correlates. Proceedings of PRESENCE, 2002, 245-259.

No, you are confusing being immersed in something with the sensation of presence. You can be inmersed in a book, movie, etc. but that is not the same as saying I literally feel like I'm physically somewhere else. Being immersed relates more to how you can dedicate your full attention to something and forget about what surrounds you. Definitions are important and immersion and presence are not interchangeable.
 

Dr. Mario

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,042
Netherlands
No, you are confusing being immersed in something with the sensation of presence. You can be inmersed in a book, movie, etc. but that is not the same as saying I literally feel like I'm physically there. Being immersed relates more to how you can dedicate you full attention to something and forget about what surrounds you. Definitions are important and immersion and presence are not interchangeable.
Definitions are indeed important but I'm not confusing anything. (in the science regarding presence, immersion is often used to denote the technological properties of the system and could be considered unique to VR)
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,723
Definitions are indeed important but I'm not confusing anything. (in the science regarding presence, immersion is often used to denote the technological properties of the system and could be considered unique to VR)

Again, you are defining presence as immersion. What are your definitions for presence and immersion? What is the difference between them in your opinion?
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
This comment is pretty ridiculous.

it's been said that AR+VR will be the next evolution of personal computing... Eventually. Right now, there's no AR/VR device that can replace a cell phone. So why would "the masses" pay cell phone prices for VR just because it's "available". That argument doesn't make any sense. It's currently priced for enthusiasts - who will overlook the lack of utility for the price, because they want to be early adopters and to industry who can justify the cost as R&D.

The very first handheld cellphone sold for $4000. People thought it was a ridiculous gimmick that would only appeal to rich people who liked showing off. It would never replace payphones, which were everywhere and much cheaper to use. Initially, the only people who bought them were enthusiasts and businesses (sound familiar?) What happened? The tech got cheaper, smaller, and more utility was added- eventually the cost matched the value to the avg consumer. Then, they became mass market items.

We arent there yet with AR/VR. When a wearable device can functionally replace a cellphone, ONLY then will the masses consider paying as much as a cellphone for one. The masses won't consider paying cellphone prices for a device that can only play video games at home. A device that limited needs to be much cheaper to achieve mass market pricing - because it's just a gaming accessory, not a replacement to cellphones, tablets and computers.
As has continually been pointed out in this thread there are AR glasses on the market now, and they do everything a phone would do.

You guys keep goin in circles, on one hand you say it's not affordable, then I say there are affordable products on the market right now.

Then you say "the tech isn't there" so I say the tech for what you guys are talking about doesn't exist,

And then you guys switch and say the tech is possible while ignoring some hard truths about the laws of physics and what's possible with our current tech.

The glasses exist now. They cost about as much as a phone. The only improvements they can get is better resolution based on our current tech. So it's not the price holding them back now.

For their to be an AR/VR revolution there's gonna have to be some new discoveries and massive investment into the infrastructure needed to make this smart world a reality.

This won't happen anytime soon.
 

Dr. Mario

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,042
Netherlands
Again, you are defining presence as immersion. What are your definitions for presence and immersion? What is the difference between them in your opinion?
Eh I don't have an exact definition at hand (and I'm not sure there is one), but something along the lines of "the experience or sensation of being physically and socially in a fictitious space to the extent that there is some level of illusion of non-mediation". Immersion I'm more in the camp of Mel Slater, that is the (procedural/narratological or physical) qualities of the medium that make the experience of presence possible. (see Slater, M. (2003). A note on presence terminology. Presence connect, 3(3), 1-5.)
 
Last edited: