Is Microsoft's attitude toward VR dictated by a lack of technical foresight or financial reward - or both?

afrodubs · Jan 5, 2019

Thing you have to be careful for with tethered seated VR is the cable getting wound around the base of the chair. I tend not to spin around enough for it to be a major issue but I have to keep an eye on my little one when he plays Astro Bot.

I imagine it won't take much to damage the cable....

EdgeXL · Jan 5, 2019

Riderz1337 said:
Have you played VR? I agree that the next big steps are wireless and also improved visuals but you can most definitely turn around in VR...very rarely do I find the wire on the headset distracting

I have but only about 3 or 4 hours. I never felt that I could turn freely without considering the cord.

Apath · Jan 5, 2019

Phamit · Jan 5, 2019

Nitro said:
His behaviour is connected by the fact PlayStation designed PS4 to support VR and Xbox did not. They have been hamstrung by this decision ever since. PlayStation is doing very well this generation; something that seems to irk Mike Ybarra. I first got wind of this during the God of War stream when Ybarra momentarily began pandering to spectators who suggested GoW was closer to a movie than a video game. You can also dismiss his cashier anecdote as fun and I'd be fine with that, but his subsequent E3 jibe (even before he knows what Sony have planned in their absence) strikes me as unhumorous. In case you still don't get it, I'm asserting that Mike Ybarra, maybe, just maybe, is an incy-wincy bit bitter toward PlayStation. I get it. Honestly I do. At some point however you've got to recognize, as I hope Phil Spencer does, that there is common ground and growth areas that need the support of all major parties. VR is one of those areas imo.

So this thread is about your problem with Ybarra and not about Microsoft, since Microsoft is working on VR just doesn't have a headset supported on Xbox.

pswii60 · Jan 5, 2019

Nitro said:
His behaviour is connected by the fact PlayStation designed PS4 to support VR and Xbox did not. They have been hamstrung by this decision ever since. PlayStation is doing very well this generation; something that seems to irk Mike Ybarra. I first got wind of this during the God of War stream when Ybarra momentarily began pandering to spectators who suggested GoW was closer to a movie than a video game. You can also dismiss his cashier anecdote as fun and I'd be fine with that, but his subsequent E3 jibe (even before he knows what Sony have planned in their absence) strikes me as unhumorous. In case you still don't get it, I'm asserting that Mike Ybarra, maybe, just maybe, is an incy-wincy bit bitter toward PlayStation. I get it. Honestly I do. At some point however you've got to recognize, as I hope Phil Spencer does, that there is common ground and growth areas that need the support of all major parties. VR is one of those areas imo.

Yes I do get what you are asserting about Ybarra - so you've just agreed with my point! That this thread's agenda was about you perceiving Ybarra being bitter towards Sony, rather than it actually being about Microsoft's VR plans, so why did you deny it and say I was making false accusations in your previous post?

FWIW, Ybarra is a business guy, getting his wages every month. The XBO disaster was a mess of their own doing and nothing to do with Sony. I don't see where "bitter" comes in to it? Do you work in business? You don't get bitter at the competition when you fail, it's not personal. I've never known such a thing. When you fail you learn from mistakes and do better next time. I'm sure he's passionate about Xbox but bitterness will not come in to it.

cakely · Jan 5, 2019

afrodubs said:
It does seem like some of XBox most vocal proponents don't want VR, or are ambivalent to it. It's gotta factor into MS objectives and messaging. Honestly, the tweet isn't unexpected or that big of a deal.

It's a chicken and the egg situation: The Xbox doesn't support VR, so some enthusiasts for the console have developed a sour grapes attitude: "My console of choice doesn't offer VR. VR is probably bad, so I never wanted it anyway."

You can see examples of that right in this thread.

If Microsoft had released VR for the Xbox One X, you can bet those same people would be on board, 100%.

nekkid said:
I'd argue that Microsoft are putting far more effort into creating a sustainable VR platform than Sony are - they're just not bringing it to Xbox (yet).

The company that's actually sold 4 million VR headsets for their platform has most certainly put more effort into creating a sustainable VR platform than the company that promised high-fidelity VR for their mid-gen refresh console and then just walked away.

PositiveGamer said:
VR is not ready. It is that simple.

VR is most certainly ready. The games are out and some of them are reviewing very, very well.

Godzilla24 · Jan 5, 2019

In my opinion there still isn't any killer app for psvr or any headset.

SnatcherHunter · Jan 5, 2019

cakely said:
VR is most certainly ready. The games are out and some of them are reviewing very, very well.

Spencer wants a wireless tech with no graphic degradation.

I can understand his POV. I personally skipped RE7 in VR and opted for my 4K experience in my TV.
While the game was amazing on VR as well, the graphics take a big hit.

VR is still growing (if it fully matures next gen)

DestroyerOfWorlds · Jan 5, 2019

Anyone know PSVR's attach rate?

Last I'd heard they had passed 3 million units sold (a few months back or so), and now PS4 has reportedly passed 90 million units sold.

If those numbers are roughly accurate, that's only around a 3.5% attach rate.

If so, I can see why MS hasn't tried to push VR on the X1. That's a huge investment to sell software to such a tiny customer base.

Izzard · Jan 5, 2019

I don't get the poor graphics argument. Sure some games, early ones, don't look that great, but the latest ones look good. Besides that, do you not buy a PS1 cos you're waiting for HD graphics? If so then you're denying yourself some great gaming moments.

Izzard · Jan 5, 2019

DestroyerOfWorlds said:
Anyone know PSVR's attach rate?

Last I'd heard they had passed 3 million units sold (a few months back or so), and now PS4 has reportedly passed 90 million units sold.

If those numbers are roughly accurate, that's only around a 3.5% attach rate.

If so, I can see why MS hasn't tried to push VR on the X1. That's a huge investment to sell software to such a tiny customer base.

Why bother with anything that isn't mass market then, if that's the case? As long as they make money, surely that's enough?

cakely · Jan 5, 2019

PositiveGamer said:
Spencer wants a wireless tech with no graphic degradation.

I can understand his POV. I personally skipped RE7 in VR and opted for my 4K experience in my TV.
While the game was amazing on VR as well, the graphics take a big hit.

VR is still growing (if it fully matures next gen)

Slightly degraded graphics does not mean VR is "not ready".

I played RE7 through using the PSVR headset. Then I tried it on my TV. The graphics are certainly sharper on a flat screen but the incredible feeling of actually being there is completely gone. RE7 in VR is the superior experience and it's just not even close. I'd call that "ready".

SuikerBrood · Jan 5, 2019

Nitro said:
His behaviour is connected by the fact PlayStation designed PS4 to support VR and Xbox did not. They have been hamstrung by this decision ever since. PlayStation is doing very well this generation; something that seems to irk Mike Ybarra. I first got wind of this during the God of War stream when Ybarra momentarily began pandering to spectators who suggested GoW was closer to a movie than a video game. You can also dismiss his cashier anecdote as fun and I'd be fine with that, but his subsequent E3 jibe (even before he knows what Sony have planned in their absence) strikes me as unhumorous. In case you still don't get it, I'm asserting that Mike Ybarra, maybe, just maybe, is an incy-wincy bit bitter toward PlayStation. I get it. Honestly I do. At some point however you've got to recognize, as I hope Phil Spencer does, that there is common ground and growth areas that need the support of all major parties. VR is one of those areas imo.

I truly do not understand the link between your sentiments towards Mike Ybarra and Microsoft only investing in VR platforms and VR on PC right now.

But sure, you do you.

RF Switch · Jan 5, 2019

Astro Bot is killer app worthy but the hardware needs a "killer app" worthy moment. I love psvr but hooking it up and it's limitations with the move controllers and camera is a pain. I haven't used vive or oculus yet but I imagine it's a tad better. When we can get no wires VR is going to take off

Barry Sandwich · Jan 5, 2019

Mike Ybarra and Cliffy B - remind me how well this generation went for them again?

SuikerBrood · Jan 5, 2019

Izzard said:
Why bother with anything that isn't mass market then, if that's the case? As long as they make money, surely that's enough?

Sure, they could invest in VR if everything went really well on their other points of focus. But investing in their first party line-up and their PC gaming efforts seems like a way better thing to do right now. Don't you agree? I'd call them 'quick wins' but that's ignoring the utter complexity of those two problems.

A company can only focus on so many things at a time.

Godzilla24 · Jan 5, 2019

I am very happy Ms skipped vr. One of the best decisions they made this generation. Rather they focus on traditional AAA games and acquiring more studios. Vr just isn't ready and still had tons of problems that need to be fixed. Psvr is still very niche. Sold only 3 million when kinect did 10x the amount at this point in time I believe. People stating but but if Xbox had vr support then their fans will be on board. Maybe for a few but sure hell won't be me. Vr is still a gimmick in my opinion. And yes I've tried it many time at stores.

DestroyerOfWorlds · Jan 5, 2019

Izzard said:
Why bother with anything that isn't mass market then, if that's the case? As long as they make money, surely that's enough?

The point is that it would be hard to make money making VR specific games, when they could only sell it to ~1.5 million customers (assuming similar attach rate). Given that no game sells to all potential customers, that means few games, possible none, would ever pass 1 million units sold.

Can't make much off each game if you can't sell more units.

So either you don't make any money off your games, or you only make really inexpesnive games, much like all of the tiny VR experiences we have been seeing on other platforms.

Irrotational · Jan 5, 2019

I know this is a gaming forum but I find the general lack of perspective about VR a bit depressing.

It's an amazing tech but a lot of games are actually the worst thing to try and put in VR because they rely heavily on movement.

Tourism, sales of homes and renovations, medicine, science etc will all benefit tons from vr (and ar)....and the sales there could far exceed anything that arises from games.

I just checked and Microsoft employs around 135k people with a revenue of 110 billion.

It will be far more focussed on capturing the growing business markets for vr and ar.

As for Xbox specifically they've been able to go with a wait and see approach so far. They can let other parts of MS do the heavy lifting on hardware...they need to focus on having good content if/when they bring vr onto the Xbox programme.

Creating a thread, and title, that extrapolates a whole lot of things from one tweet from one Xbox person (albeit fairly senior) seems a bit of a stretch to me.

The most important, and telling, comments on vr (for Xbox specifically) came from Phil Spencer over the last 18 months or so where he has continually said that he loves vr, but it's still early in development and that fits the pc space rather than the console space.

Numbers and sales wise Xbox should probably be far more focussed on the handheld and mobile markets (switch and billions of phone f2p revenue)....where they are behind the times and missing out on a lot of money.

I should really also mention the ethos about being a software company and trying to create the "directx" of vr...but this post is already far too long.

Deleted member 18951 · Jan 5, 2019

Nitro said:
His behaviour is connected by the fact PlayStation designed PS4 to support VR and Xbox did not. They have been hamstrung by this decision ever since. PlayStation is doing very well this generation; something that seems to irk Mike Ybarra. I first got wind of this during the God of War stream when Ybarra momentarily began pandering to spectators who suggested GoW was closer to a movie than a video game. You can also dismiss his cashier anecdote as fun and I'd be fine with that, but his subsequent E3 jibe (even before he knows what Sony have planned in their absence) strikes me as unhumorous. In case you still don't get it, I'm asserting that Mike Ybarra, maybe, just maybe, is an incy-wincy bit bitter toward PlayStation. I get it. Honestly I do. At some point however you've got to recognize, as I hope Phil Spencer does, that there is common ground and growth areas that need the support of all major parties. VR is one of those areas imo.

So is the point of your thread about Xbox and VR or Mike Ybarra and his conduct ?

Dr. Mario · Jan 5, 2019

It's not a tech thing. Microsoft is lightyears ahead of pretty much all of the competition imo. Pinning a hologram in place with a Hololens on, walking out of the office, getting a coffee on the other side of the building, walking back to my office and seeing the hologram still in the same spot is way more impressive tech than any VR has given me so far. The inside out tracking of WMR is also the right idea, being much less of a hassle than Oculus and Vive, although the cameras can be improved.

The point is a financial one. Nadella much more than previous CEOs it seems is there for the shareholders. A plan needs to have long term growth prospects to be pursued. VR on Xbox One will be a short lived gimmick (Windows is better suited for iteration). The money to be earned in the games market is in mobile and live services anyway. The real growth market for VR is more in MR and definitely more in the business realm. That's why I think the Windows/Hololens MR R&D takes precedence and anything that comes out of that can trickle down to Xbox. Not the other way around.

DarthBuzzard · Jan 5, 2019

Crusadernm said:
I am very happy Ms skipped vr. One of the best decisions they made this generation. Rather they focus on traditional AAA games and acquiring more studios. Vr just isn't ready and still had tons of problems that need to be fixed. Psvr is still very niche. Sold only 3 million when kinect did 10x the amount at this point in time I believe. People stating but but if Xbox had vr support then their fans will be on board. Maybe for a few but sure hell won't be me. Vr is still a gimmick in my opinion. And yes I've tried it many time at stores.

Trying it at stores doesn't really tell you much. You can't take your time, and you don't often get the good games, or games with longevity.

Kinect sold more because it was much cheaper and the public already had lots of experience with Kinect-like devices before it came out.

Godzilla24 · Jan 5, 2019

DarthBuzzard said:
Trying it at stores doesn't really tell you much. You can't take your time, and you don't often get the good games, or games with longevity.

Kinect sold more because it was much cheaper and the public already had lots of experience with Kinect-like devices before it came out.

Yes I took my time and set it up personally for myself. Still a gimmick. The frys near me has a psvr open setup. Psvr so has lots of problems that will need be addressed.

DarthBuzzard · Jan 5, 2019

Crusadernm said:
Yes I took my time and set it up personally for myself. Still a gimmick. The frys near me has a psvr open setup. Psvr so has lots of problems that will need be addressed.

Several issues of PSVR are solved by other VR headsets. As I already said, store demos are not going to show you games with longevity and will ignore most aspects of VR in the first place.

The_Land · Jan 5, 2019

After 2 bouts with nonsense Kinect I'm glad MS isn't touching VR for the time being.

jviggy43 · Jan 5, 2019

Nitro said:
He's also acting a bit funny toward PlayStation recently.

Although this was my favourite reply.

That second tweet is fucking hilarious

SuikerBrood · Jan 5, 2019

Dr. Mario said:
It's not a tech thing. Microsoft is lightyears ahead of pretty much all of the competition imo. Pinning a hologram in place with a Hololens on, walking out of the office, getting a coffee on the other side of the building, walking back to my office and seeing the hologram still in the same spot is way more impressive tech than any VR has given me so far. The inside out tracking of WMR is also the right idea, being much less of a hassle than Oculus and Vive, although the cameras can be improved.

The point is a financial one. Nadella much more than previous CEOs it seems is there for the shareholders. A plan needs to have long term growth prospects to be pursued. VR on Xbox One will be a short lived gimmick (Windows is better suited for iteration). The money to be earned in the games market is in mobile and live services anyway. The real growth market for VR is more in MR and definitely more in the business realm. That's why I think the Windows/Hololens MR R&D takes precedence and anything that comes out of that can trickle down to Xbox. Not the other way around.

Nice post.

I think this is the harsh reality. Sure, Microsoft could add virtual reality to their home console. They have the technology and the headsets. But if they do this, it'll require an investment in content. They'd have to market it.

If they hit the same attachment rate as PlayStation (which has exclusive software for it) they'd be serving roughly 2 million people. They have been trying to fix their content problems by investing in studios and talent, but I don't think it's wise to use that talent to serve 5% of your customers.

I can see it happening next gen tho. Studios like Obsidian Entertainment, inXile and Ninja Theory have dabbled in virtual reality. If the price of VR can go down and the accessibility can improve, they'll jump on it. But for now it's businesses and computer enthusiasts first.

EvilBoris · Jan 5, 2019

Cliffy asked if there was a killer app and Mike Ybarra says no, google earth is the closest thing to that.

Why is this controversial?

Francesco · Jan 5, 2019

Discussions like this remind me how Microsoft is the company making Windows os and Office programs.
Of all tech companies out there, they have the weirdest cultural connection with videogames and its market.

Godzilla24 · Jan 5, 2019

DarthBuzzard said:
Several issues of PSVR are solved by other VR headsets. As I already said, store demos are not going to show you games with longevity and will ignore most aspects of VR in the first place.

Im still gonna ignore it until those issues are fixed. Vr will never be mainstream until then. I have a prediction that even if they somehow fix these issues, wireless fidelity nausea tracking etc still will never ever be mainstream. Many people are still against playing with something on their heads. I think if psvr 2 releases, it will actually do less sales than psvr.

DestroyerOfWorlds · Jan 5, 2019

EvilBoris said:
Cliffy asked if there was a killer app and Mike Ybarra says no, google earth is the closest thing to that.

Why is this controversial?

Because people read into things too much and attach their own additional meanings to the words.

Defect · Jan 5, 2019

Vr has some good games but nothing crazy. If anything, VrChat is the coolest thing to play.

I feel sorry for the people who play beat saber on psvr.

Barry Sandwich · Jan 5, 2019

EvilBoris said:
Cliffy asked if there was a killer app and Mike Ybarra says no, google earth is the closest thing to that.

Why is this controversial?

Because it's ignoring a wealth of incredible content due to it being on a competing platform.

Also why does Cliffy B need to ask Mike Ybarra for VR recommendations?

Izzard · Jan 5, 2019

SuikerBrood said:
Sure, they could invest in VR if everything went really well on their other points of focus. But investing in their first party line-up and their PC gaming efforts seems like a way better thing to do right now. Don't you agree? I'd call them 'quick wins' but that's ignoring the utter complexity of those two problems.

A company can only focus on so many things at a time.

For sure, I agree. But they're doing BC, Game Pass, adaptive controllers, AR, supposedly developing 2 new consoles. They're more than capable of cramming VR in too. One can hope anyway, lol.

DarthBuzzard · Jan 5, 2019

Crusadernm said:
Im still gonna ignore it until those issues are fixed. Vr will never be mainstream until then. I have a prediction that even if they somehow fix these issues, wireless fidelity nausea tracking etc still will never ever be mainstream. Many people are still against playing with something on their heads. I think if psvr 2 releases, it will actually do less sales than psvr.

There's no chance of PSVR2 selling less. Logically that would be insane if it happened, because we can only get exponential improvements from now on.

People don't know what they want until they try it. People have only tried bulky headsets so they have no reference about what a pair of glasses that does VR would feel like.

SuikerBrood · Jan 5, 2019

Francesco said:
Discussions like this remind me how Microsoft is the company making Windows os and Office programs.
Of all tech companies out there, they have the weirdest cultural connection with videogames and its market.

Windows -> video games isn't that weird of a connection tho, is it?

From Solitaire to minesweerper, from Age of Empires to Flight Simulator. Games is in their dna.

They are also the company building things like these:

Microsoft has the tendency to be Google, Amazon, Sony and Apple at the same time. While still doing Microsoft Office.. ;)

ghostcrew · Jan 5, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
Also why does Cliffy B need to ask Mike Ybarra for VR recommendations?

He didnt, he asked Twitter, Mike replied to him that, in his opinion, there is no killer app yet. As a huge VR fan/multi headset owner, he's probably not wrong.

nekkid · Jan 5, 2019

cakely said:
The company that's actually sold 4 million VR headsets for their platform has most certainly put more effort into creating a sustainable VR platform than the company that promised high-fidelity VR for their mid-gen refresh console and then just walked away.

So MMR isn't a thing? It's a hell of a lot better VR platform, in terms of capability, fidelity and scalability than PSVR.

SuikerBrood · Jan 5, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
Because it's ignoring a wealth of incredible content due to it being on a competing platform.

Also why does Cliffy B need to ask Mike Ybarra for VR recommendations?

Cliffy B asked everyone.

And I don't think Ybarra is ignoring content. He just doesn't see a killer app yet. That's all.

There have been some amazing apps and games on VR be it on PSVR or PCVR.

Golvellius · Jan 5, 2019

Francesco said:
Discussions like this remind me how Microsoft is the company making Windows os and Office programs.
Of all tech companies out there, they have the weirdest cultural connection with videogames and its market.

Posts like this remind me how a lot of people seem to be living under a rock.

Vordan · Jan 5, 2019

Nitro said:
His behaviour is connected by the fact PlayStation designed PS4 to support VR and Xbox did not. They have been hamstrung by this decision ever since. PlayStation is doing very well this generation; something that seems to irk Mike Ybarra. I first got wind of this during the God of War stream when Ybarra momentarily began pandering to spectators who suggested GoW was closer to a movie than a video game. You can also dismiss his cashier anecdote as fun and I'd be fine with that, but his subsequent E3 jibe (even before he knows what Sony have planned in their absence) strikes me as unhumorous. In case you still don't get it, I'm asserting that Mike Ybarra, maybe, just maybe, is an incy-wincy bit bitter toward PlayStation. I get it. Honestly I do. At some point however you've got to recognize, as I hope Phil Spencer does, that there is common ground and growth areas that need the support of all major parties. VR is one of those areas imo.

So really this thread is just you being mad at Ybarra and trying to stir up console wars. Ok enjoy your thread OP.

Godzilla24 · Jan 5, 2019

DarthBuzzard said:
There's no chance of PSVR2 selling less. Logically that would be insane if it happened, because we can only get exponential improvements from now on.

People don't know what they want until they try it. People have only tried bulky headsets so they have no reference about what a pair of glasses that does VR would feel like.

We'll see. But my prediction still stands. Most people I know with psvr headset don't really use it anymore and gathering dust. Yeah it's all anecdotal but I bet there are many many people that are in this category. Those people will not be purchasing a psvr 2. What are Astrobot sales by the way? Just curious.

DestroyerOfWorlds · Jan 5, 2019

Francesco said:
Discussions like this remind me how Microsoft is the company making Windows os and Office programs.
Of all tech companies out there, they have the weirdest cultural connection with videogames and its market.

Microsoft has been making games longer than Sony has. Just because they have a great variety to their business doesn't mean games don't belong.

Godzilla24 · Jan 5, 2019

Vordan said:
So really this thread is just you being mad at Ybarra and trying to stir up console wars. Ok enjoy your thread OP.

Yeah I saw right through it from the very beginning. It's pathetic.

DarthBuzzard · Jan 5, 2019

Crusadernm said:
We'll see. But my prediction still stands. Most people I know with psvr headset don't really use it anymore and gathering dust. Yeah it's all anecdotal but I bet there are many many people that are in this category. Those people will not be purchasing a psvr 2. What are Astrobot sales by the way? Just curious.

PSVR has only recently had a decent lineup of titles. PSVRs that gather dust have most likely been gathering dust before the content started piling up. Sometimes those people don't look for the new content (because there isn't much advertising yet), and so it just continues to collect dust in such a case.

It's much less likely to happen for a new buyer now.

I have no idea what the sales of Astro Bot are, but it is bundled at least.

Barry Sandwich · Jan 5, 2019

SuikerBrood said:
Cliffy B asked everyone.

And I don't think Ybarra is ignoring content. He just doesn't see a killer app yet. That's all.

There have been some amazing apps and games on VR be it on PSVR or PCVR.

But we all know Google Earth isn't a more notable app than Astrobot, Moss, Resi 7.

Deleted member 19924 · Jan 5, 2019

elenarie · Jan 5, 2019

People really need to lighten up. :D

DestroyerOfWorlds · Jan 5, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
But we all know Google Earth isn't a more notable app than Astrobot, Moss, Resi 7.

Have you tried Google Earth VR? It's pretty awesome.

SuikerBrood · Jan 5, 2019

Barry Sandwich said:
But we all know Google Earth isn't a more notable app than Astrobot, Moss, Resi 7.

Do we?

Is Microsoft's attitude toward VR dictated by a lack of technical foresight or financial reward - or both?

Prophet of Truth

User requested account closure

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest

The Shrouded Ghost

User requested account closure

Game Developer