Is Ray Tracing actually even worth it right now?

[Spacejaws]

With the way gamers are a bit uptight about not meeting that 60fps mark it seems like RTX kinda works against that for me. Next gen consoles might still be full of 30FPS games to get those RTX beauty shots.

I dunno, when I've turned it on for my 2070 I'm sacrificing a hell of a lot of performance to the point I'm locking FPS to 30.

 

[Rosol]

I played control on a 2080ti/ 9900k (High end LG 4K tv )last weekend for an hour or so with the dlss patch and ray tracing on and quite frankly it's not worth the performance cost at all. To me the faked lighting is more than good enough, sure it shines in certain scenarios - but a lot of the hype is way overblown at least in its current implementation. Even the Minecraft demos don't really make me want to have it.

 

[GamerDude]

How close do you sit?
I sit about 3 meters from a 65 inch TV and the biggest difference I see is the 3840x2160 label in the corner of the TV whenever it receives a 4K signal. :p
I only know it's native, checkerboarding or dynamic res because DF says so, otherwise I would have no clue.
HDR is great though. But focusing on native 4K is possibly the worst waste of system resources I can think of.

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Wow. I don't even know what to say. 4K TVs are such an enormous upgrade. The difference is so big that I just can't fathom anyone not noticing. Maybe there is something wrong with your TV?

 

[ThreepQuest64]

Wow. I don't even know what to say. 4K TVs are such an enormous upgrade. The difference is so big that I just can't fathom anyone not noticing. Maybe there is something wrong with your TV?

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No, it's his viewing distance. 3 meters is, even for a 65 inch, too far away to really benefit from 4k. With 3 meters distance he'd need at least five more inches in screen size. The bigger the better, or the close the better (to a certain point, of course). THX ideal recommended distance (that is 36-40° viewing angle) for 65 inch is actually 2 meters. Of course there are gradual transitions, so it's not an on/off switch whether you see benefits of 4k (I see the difference from 4k to 1080p when I sit at 2,25m, but only marginally, it increases noticeable, though, when I lean forward.) But usually when people say they don't notice any difference it's because they're either too far away or the TV is too small.

 

[GamerDude]

No, it's his viewing distance. 3 meters is, even for a 65 inch, too far away to really benefit from 4k. With 3 meters distance he'd need at least five more inches in screen size. The bigger the better, or the close the better (to a certain point, of course). THX ideal recommended distance (that is 36-40° viewing angle) for 65 inch is actually 2 meters. Of course there are gradual transitions, so it's not an on/off switch whether you see benefits of 4k (I see the difference from 4k to 1080p when I sit at 2,25m, but only marginally, it increases noticeable, though, when I lean forward.) But usually when people say they don't notice any difference it's because they're either too far away or the TV is too small.

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Very interesting! Thanks for explaining!

 

[ken_matthews]

Although Control does more Metro Exodus still holds the number one spot for me with its raytraced GI and raytraced emissive lighting. Reflections and Shadows just aren't a big deal to me.

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I think it has to do more with developers being better at faking things with indoor scenes. Take this example from the beginning of Metro Exodus:

The differences are there, but just like with Control, both Exodus shots look great. Raytraced GI really stands out with inside/outside scenes where you have an off camera light source hitting just a part of the transition from out to in. This isn't even the best example, but it's scenes like the below that really show off raytraced GI and bounce lighting:

ken_matthews

I do appreciate you providing additional detail on the differences. It's interesting to compare, although I think that helps to show that without someone pointing out the differences in this way, most people won't be able to automatically "notice" the benefits of RayTracing.

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Check the above screens. And I do agree with Monster Zero, Metro Exodus does less, but it is the best example of raytraced GI in a game so far. I will post more examples later.

 

[disco_potato]

Wow. I don't even know what to say. 4K TVs are such an enormous upgrade. The difference is so big that I just can't fathom anyone not noticing. Maybe there is something wrong with your TV?

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There's a reason most say that having good HDR makes a bigger difference than going from 1080p to 4k. My TV/monitor is on my desk so I can see the difference going from 1080 to 4k. My big screen at 10ft, is another story.

 

[MazeHaze]

There's a reason most say that having good HDR makes a bigger difference than going from 1080p to 4k. My TV/monitor is on my desk so I can see the difference going from 1080 to 4k. My big screen at 10ft, is another story.

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Yeah on my OLED from the couch I can see the difference between 1080p and 4k, it's not huge though. However, I absolutely can not spot the difference between 1440p and 4k, which is great because my gpu is a 1440p card lol.

 

[SirNinja]

Right now, no, and the current craze over it has all but ensured that the first few years of next gen are going to be annoying, with devs trying to use it in all their games and - once again - struggling to hit 30 FPS because of it. The more things change...

It looks nice, but next gen it's just not going to be worth the massive performance hit in most cases. Once developers realize that it's CPU/GPU power that could be used for so much more, that's when we'll get the real visual stunners.

Yes, ray-tracing is inevitable, the future, etc., but it's tech that will really only truly shine the gen after next. (One can only imagine what the inevitable performance hog will be then. An obsession over hyper-realistic fluid physics, maybe?)

 

[blue_phazon]

I disagree. I think the difference is huge.

No RT

With RT

Of course not every scene in Control has this big of difference, but still, its fairly drastic.

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Is this one of those "spot the difference" puzzles cause I can't tell the difference

 

[OldDirtyGamer]

I dont think so. I've played most of the games that support RT and left unimpressed with most . Control was the most noticeable but to get there on my 2060 the iq and performance hit wasn't worth it.

With advances in dlss that may help out but I dont see consoles having a full suite of RT options like control does .

If you have a beefy gpu its probably a different story

 

[padlock]

Looking at the animated gif of the Metro shots, even though the differences are evident, it's hard for me to say which one I prefer.

I mean, I'm sure the RTX one is technically far more accurate and realistic, but from a purely aesthetic point of view, they just look different to me, without one being clearly superior.

 

[ken_matthews]

Is this one of those "spot the difference" puzzles cause I can't tell the difference

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Are you serious? Or did you just stop reading the thread at that post?

 

[Merc]

GPUs on the market today don't perform Ray Tracing well enough at high FPS and high resolutions. This is why I am waiting to upgrade my GPU. Once GPUs perform Ray Tracing well, it will be worth purchasing.

 

[Link_enfant]

I mean, it had to start someday eventually.
Looks like a good time to do so imo. The potential is really insane.

 

[ken_matthews]

Here is a good indoor scene from Metro Exodus that really shows of the ray traced GI and soft shadows:

All that sexy light occlusion is really getting me all hot and bothered...

 

[blue_phazon]

Are you serious? Or did you just stop reading the thread at that post?

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I replied when I got to that post, but then saw the gifs later.

i wouldn't have spotted the difference without it though

 

[ken_matthews]

I replied when I got to that post, but then saw the gifs later.

i wouldn't have spotted the difference without it though

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Well, it is interesting because this conversation kind of follows the 30/60 fps or the 1080p vs 4k arguments. There is always a crowd who can never spot the differences while playing the games, yet for many others, the differences are night and day. I don't know, the differences are fairly obvious to me when I play the game and I don't understand how people can't see it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[exodus]

For me, not really. While I can still safely maintain ~60fps at 1080p with a 2070 Super, I rather use the extra horsepower for supersampling or pushing 100+ fps.

 

[supernormal]

As a "practicing" "ophthalmologist" it is clear to me that you all suffer from advanced degenerative eye disease. And in keeping with the hippocratic oath, I've reported each of you to the authorities.

I do agree that raytracing in Control is not mind blowing. It is still a beautiful game without it, and raytracing is kind of half baked into the game, but it is doing a lot of work, especially in the example screen I posted. I made some more gifs to better highlight it for the seeing impaired (don't argue with me, I am a doctor and you've been diagnosed...learn to live with it).

Some of the details get lost due to the gif format but the differences are very clear

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Although I thought the differences were pretty apparent, signaling them like this made me see a bunch of stuff I missed like the shading on the left hand and some of the bounce on the items on top of the desk. One of the biggest changes (which I think you didn't highlight because it was so obvious) is on the lighting of the area with the drawers and the cart on the middle right.

 

[ThreepQuest64]

Some of the details get lost due to the gif format but the differences are very clear

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Haha, you done this by yourself? Amazing work, thanks! Sure, if you *need* a gif like that it doesn't really help the point that RT is the next big thing and for many those are such minor details they don't see any benefit over trading their performance for.

However, I think what most *will* notice are improved reflections and the move away from traditional screen space reflections that were criticized also by less tech-savvy people in Resident Evil 2, for example. While in a still image, screen space reflections still do good job, the flaws are way more apparent in motion, though, when reflections constantly change depending on the camera angle and what actually is on screen. And I, personally, find it very distracting when reflections vanish and re-appear as I move along or even only the camera.

It doesn't mean, that everything has to be "shiny" and run-down cars in BFV reflect like they have been waxed recently and the clean-mopped floors in Control aren't suitable for every scenario.

But imagine if Metro Exodus or a game like Hunt: Showdown that is set in the swamps and have so many (SS) reflections had ray traced reflections...

 

[Fredrik]

Wow. I don't even know what to say. 4K TVs are such an enormous upgrade. The difference is so big that I just can't fathom anyone not noticing. Maybe there is something wrong with your TV?

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Lol no my TV is fine. I could sit closer and see a bigger difference but I shouldn't have to, this is why I think it's a waste to focus so much on it. Unless you have crazy good eye-sight you need to have a huge TV and sit really close before it's worth it.

Again, what's your viewing distance for your 55" when you think the difference is so big? Are you sure it's the resolution you're noticing or could it be HDR and simply having a better panel?

 

[mugurumakensei]

yes. Waiting for perfection is anti-progress because once the hardware and associated ask are out there, you must now wait decades for games and software to perfect essentially doubling time for progress. In comparison, nVidia and now console manufacturers have chosen good enough viable products so that software iteration can start in parallel with hardware accelerate RT advancements.

 

[jett]

Are you serious? Or did you just stop reading the thread at that post?

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It may be hard for you to accept this but it's actually difficult to tell the difference unless you open both pictures in two tabs and swap between them.

Control simply looks perfectly fine without RTX.

 

[Nintendo]

I wish I was one of the people who can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4K or RT and non-RT lighting in this case. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[chezzymann]

Raytracing is absolutely worth it for games that are built from the ground up with it in mind. A couple years from now threads like this will age horribly. As a 3D artist its so weird seeing people doubt raytracing when its so critical to everything. Its factually not a gimmick and will easily be the main factor that makes games from this generation look dated.

Once developers dont have to design stuff with fake lighting anymore and can run wild you'll see.

 

[ken_matthews]

Although I thought the differences were pretty apparent, signaling them like this made me see a bunch of stuff I missed like the shading on the left hand and some of the bounce on the items on top of the desk. One of the biggest changes (which I think you didn't highlight because it was so obvious) is on the lighting of the area with the drawers and the cart on the middle right.

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Yeah there is a lot more going on in the screen shots, like the GI bounce on her jacket sleeve, the reflections and shading on the chair cushions , the reflections of the binders in the black holders on the desks, and a bunch more. However you can only draw so many arrows and boxes before it gets too crowded.

Haha, you done this by yourself? Amazing work, thanks! Sure, if you *need* a gif like that it doesn't really help the point that RT is the next big thing and for many those are such minor details they don't see any benefit over trading their performance for.

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Thanks guy! But that is the thing, I don't think you need gifs like those because the differences are obvious. I made those because I am a doctor and there are people in this thread who are vision impaired and need medical assistance.

It may be hard for you to accept this but it's actually difficult to tell the difference unless you open both pictures in two tabs and swap between them.

Control simply looks perfectly fine without RTX.

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It may be hard for you to accept this, but it is actually really easy to tell the difference while playing the game. Control looks a lot better with RTX on. Again, this conversation reminds me of the 30 vs 60 fps debate, or the 1080p vs 4k. All these differences are very obvious to a lot of people. But for some reason, it is difficult for others to make the distinction. This also reminds me of that famous internet dress. If you said it looked blue and black, and somebody else said gold and white, then you both would think the other was crazy. But I agree, Control still looks great without RTX (also I don't think you got to the gifs yet).

 

[Monster Zero]

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Cyberpunk is going to look a lot more bland without having raytraced emissive lighting turned on. Unless people think these will be the only neon lights or any other object that gives off light in the game.

 

[jett]

But I agree, Control still looks great without RTX (also I don't think you got to the gifs yet).

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Like I said, I actually opened the pictures int two tabs to be able to see the differences. I saw them. I didn't say there aren't any.

 

[Nintendo]

Cyberpunk is going to look a lot more bland without having raytraced emissive lighting turned on. Unless people think these will be the only neon lights or any other object that gives off light in the game.

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Yeah emissive textures will make a big difference in Cyberpunk.

 

[Deleted member 10428]

I've never been this unimpressed by "the next big thing in graphics tech" as I am by this. If more realistic lightning and reflections the only thing ray tracing is improving I think it will be a hard sell.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Nothing is worth compromising a stable framerate. Whether it's 30 or 60, keep that shit fucking stable.

 

[ken_matthews]

Here are a couple more Control RTX gifs, because why not?

These shots might make it more apparent for some. The RTX screens look a lot less like a video game, and it is only going to get better going forward.

 

[Jedi2016]

It'll make a hell of a lot more difference when games are actually designed for it from the start. Even the "best" examples people have, like Metro or Control, the games weren't designed around it, RTX was just sort of slapped on top.

And yes, next-gen will be 30fps. Get over it.

 

[DocH1X1]

Have you seen minecraft ray tracing? Hell yes its worth it !

 

[Deleted member 45130]

I disagree. I think the difference is huge.

No RT

With RT

Of course not every scene in Control has this big of difference, but still, its fairly drastic.

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That is not worth the performance cost. Metro looks so much better.

 

[digitalrelic]

I disagree. I think the difference is huge.

No RT

With RT

Of course not every scene in Control has this big of difference, but still, its fairly drastic.

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I don't think this comparison is accomplishing what you think it's accomplishing

 

[ken_matthews]

I don't think this comparison is accomplishing what you think it's accomplishing

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I disagree, the differences are substantial and very obvious in those screenshots and when playing the game. If you are having trouble seeing it, I suggest you reference the gifs I made after that post. And I will say it again, this reminds me of the 30 vs 60 fps or the 1080p vs 4k debates. The differences are very obvious to some, but not so much to others. I don't understand why, but I clearly see the ray tracing effects in that screen shot comparison (which is why I posted it as a good example). I don't know why the differences are less obvious to you and others, but I don't doubt your experience.

That is not worth the performance cost. Metro looks so much better.

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Whether it is worth the performance cost is very debatable, but I agree, Metro's raytraced GI and soft shadows have a more pronounced effect. But I think that has more to do with the lighting style and the setting in the game. You have a lot more dark scenes with single source direct lights like lamps and bulbs, and then the sun when outside which is where the raytraced GI really shines. In Control you have a lot of overhead and diffused light sources which make the GI and soft shadows more subtle.

 

[Thera]

Does any PC player want to run sub-60 fps at sub 1080p on a $1500 machine in 2020?

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With DLSS 2.0 on Control, you won't be at sub 1080p/sub 60 FPS

 

[DanCon]

we are at the early stages of what can be done with ray tracing in games...most of the implementation of it is very subtle, either just ray traced reflections or some subtle bounce light overlayed on top of the games standard lighting setup. Minecraft is the only game i can think of that has a full ray tracing lighting solution and thats why the difference between it being on/off is so apparent. but yeah Ray tracing is the future in one form or another

and i agree that the above Control screenshots are not the best example of what ray tracing can do, there are much better areas of the game that could have been shown off to get your point across

 

[Dennis8K]

Here are a couple more Control RTX gifs, because why not?

These shots might make it more apparent for some. The RTX screens look a lot less like a video game, and it is only going to get better going forward.

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How did we ever live without ray tracing?

 

[ken_matthews]

How did we ever live without ray tracing?

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Sarcasm?

 

[Dennis8K]

Sarcasm?

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No.

 

[ken_matthews]

No.

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Well then, my apologies good sir.

 

[Dennis8K]

Well then, my apologies good sir.

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The ray tracing makes the scene looks more photoreal which I love.

 

[Euler007]

No, it's his viewing distance. 3 meters is, even for a 65 inch, too far away to really benefit from 4k. With 3 meters distance he'd need at least five more inches in screen size. The bigger the better, or the close the better (to a certain point, of course). THX ideal recommended distance (that is 36-40° viewing angle) for 65 inch is actually 2 meters. Of course there are gradual transitions, so it's not an on/off switch whether you see benefits of 4k (I see the difference from 4k to 1080p when I sit at 2,25m, but only marginally, it increases noticeable, though, when I lean forward.) But usually when people say they don't notice any difference it's because they're either too far away or the TV is too small.

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Spot on, he's in the middle of "1080p Worth it" on the chart.

 

[Ankit Gaba]

It's worth every penny

 

[Vitamin_B_Complex]

I don't know, I disagree. The differences are fairly huge in those screen shots. They stand out to me. Here is a GIF to better highlight them for you.

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Ist it impressive if such a gif is necessary? Like the poster before I had a problem seeing a big difference and I know where to look. If your brain can't keep nuances in mind just by scrolling up and down, is it really that tremendous of a difference. You could literally turn it of while I was on the toilet and I would never notice it immediately.

It looks better no doubt. But it just goes to show how far we have pushed rasta lighting. Remedy did an outstanding job in both cases and I can't tell you how excited I am for their next gen game.

 

[Akita One]

Not for what...3-6 triple A single player games? It's funny how that whole spiel about framerates being important for consoles next gen lasted all of 3 seconds before we got right back into the good ol' specs wars of yore.

 

[ken_matthews]

Ist it impressive if such a gif is necessary? Like the poster before I had a problem seeing a big difference and I know where to look. If your brain can't keep nuances in mind just by scrolling up and down, is it really that tremendous of a difference. You could literally turn it of while I was on the toilet and I would never notice it immediately.

It looks better no doubt. But it just goes to show how far we have pushed rasta lighting. Remedy did an outstanding job in both cases and I can't tell you how excited I am for their next gen game.

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Again, I disagree (see my posts after that one, and the ones that are further up on this page).