It's weird as hell. 11-year-old me figured out the ring system a few acts into Sonic 1. Fast-forward to 2020 and apparently posters in a hardcore gaming forum can't make sense of it.
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is Sonic's 'all rings fall out' one of the worst health systems in gaming
- Thread starter Trelova
- Start date
It is in fact one of the best health systems ever conceived, and one of the principal reasons why the original games were so popular. Rings are incredibly prevalent, meaning that taking a hit is basically an inconvenience at worst. Furthermore, the system is easily understandable by players of all ages and levels - if you have no rings and take a hit, you die.
This system plus the fact it's just move and jump, with all three face buttons doing the same thing, go hand in hand and enormously boost the appeal of the original Sonic games.
This system plus the fact it's just move and jump, with all three face buttons doing the same thing, go hand in hand and enormously boost the appeal of the original Sonic games.
You still get extra lives and in some games access to special stages by having a high ring count, additionally in some games you need to have an maintain a high ring count to keep playing as Super Sonic.
No it's one of the greatest, helps you balance your speed and platforming. Go fast but not so fast that you lose your protection (and points).
I can't believe this thread.
The rings system is like a major reason why the original games even work lol.
Think about every standard sidescrolling game that came before it. Either you have one-hit kills, a progressive power-up system (Mario), or a life bar (Mega Man). Sonic doesn't have Mario-style power-ups, so that's out as an option. A limited number of hits for Sonic would have meshed horribly with the gameplay and level design; it would have been too punishing.
The rings system allows you to play almost as recklessly as you want provided that you keep recollecting at least 1 of them. It grinds you to a halt upon taking damage so that you actually have the opportunity to recollect them. Gating the bonus stages (and the true ending) behind a 50-ring threshold provides the incentive for replay, which is vital for your standard 1-hour video game circa 1991.
When you combine Sonic's speed with a traditional damage system you get poorly balanced stuff like Bubsy or Awesome Possum.
Like... holy shit. This aspect of Sonic is completely different from any popular game that came before it. Stop and think for a moment that there might be a reason why they did that.
The rings system is like a major reason why the original games even work lol.
Think about every standard sidescrolling game that came before it. Either you have one-hit kills, a progressive power-up system (Mario), or a life bar (Mega Man). Sonic doesn't have Mario-style power-ups, so that's out as an option. A limited number of hits for Sonic would have meshed horribly with the gameplay and level design; it would have been too punishing.
The rings system allows you to play almost as recklessly as you want provided that you keep recollecting at least 1 of them. It grinds you to a halt upon taking damage so that you actually have the opportunity to recollect them. Gating the bonus stages (and the true ending) behind a 50-ring threshold provides the incentive for replay, which is vital for your standard 1-hour video game circa 1991.
When you combine Sonic's speed with a traditional damage system you get poorly balanced stuff like Bubsy or Awesome Possum.
Like... holy shit. This aspect of Sonic is completely different from any popular game that came before it. Stop and think for a moment that there might be a reason why they did that.
Literal 6-year-olds could play, understand, and beat Sonic the Hedgehog, but it's too goddamn confounding for Resetera.
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Same. I was always like "reach it, reach it" before my i-frames were gone.
Exactly.
The team behind Sonic 1 didn't want a system where players had to go looking for "hearts" or other such nonsense every time they took a hit.
1. It slows the pacing down, which is unreasonably punishing to the player.
2. Chances are high that the player would just end up losing a life trying to find a health-replenishing item.
3. Since there wouldn't be any opportunities to regain health during a boss-battle, the level of difficulty becomes severely imbalanced.
Furthermore, the ring-system coincides with Sega's MO throughout the 80s and 90s. They create games that are immediately accessible, while also being rewarding for those who try to master them. It's like how Shinobi 3 gives you a generous health meter, but you get a huge sum of bonus points if you beat a stage without getting hit.
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This thread is really weird, are you specifically talking about the 16-bit entries or all Sonic games? Some later games only have you lose some, it surprisingly doesn't work as well.
With the original games, the ring system is excellent.
Sonic is a fast game, first time around the level you will almost certainly run into spikes or an enemy you've never seen before. The ring system is a forgiving compromise, it's your safety net and encourages you to keep trying to go fast, as long as you have 1 ring you're ok.
If you need 50 rings for a special stage, well that's when you need to learn your layouts. You need to earn some things with these games, don't expect they will give you a freebie emerald as well, those stages (especially Sonic 1) are super unforgiving.
The original Sonic games are short but have a lot of replayability with the stage design, you're not expected to 100% the game first try, you're supposed to try it over again.
Now then, if you want to rant about the ring system when there's a scrolling boss stage, that I agree is absolute bullshit. 1 hit and the ring is off the edge of the screen - it's gone, goodbye - the ring system literally doesn't work in that specific scenario and Sonic Advance 2 thought it was a good idea to have every boss be like this. Rubbish.
With the original games, the ring system is excellent.
Sonic is a fast game, first time around the level you will almost certainly run into spikes or an enemy you've never seen before. The ring system is a forgiving compromise, it's your safety net and encourages you to keep trying to go fast, as long as you have 1 ring you're ok.
If you need 50 rings for a special stage, well that's when you need to learn your layouts. You need to earn some things with these games, don't expect they will give you a freebie emerald as well, those stages (especially Sonic 1) are super unforgiving.
The original Sonic games are short but have a lot of replayability with the stage design, you're not expected to 100% the game first try, you're supposed to try it over again.
Now then, if you want to rant about the ring system when there's a scrolling boss stage, that I agree is absolute bullshit. 1 hit and the ring is off the edge of the screen - it's gone, goodbye - the ring system literally doesn't work in that specific scenario and Sonic Advance 2 thought it was a good idea to have every boss be like this. Rubbish.
It works as intended and it makes a difference if you have only 1 or 200 rings. Way more rings fall out if you have 200 and it' easier to regain health.
Good God
The whole point is that the more rings you have the easier it is for you to grab 1 and continue. You should not be worried about having tones of rings your first time around.
You lose them all because the game is punishing you for either playing badly or not knowing the layout of the level. Level knowledge will come the more you play the game.
Going fast and high ring counts are actually rewards for playing great and knowing the level, which is the genus for all of the successful Sonic Games
Sonic 1-3 Sonic Adventure 1-2 all have this built in mind.
Even Uleashed and Generations have it built in but the move the focus from high ring counts to clear time and the ranking system
Yes there's a method to the madness, stop saying its bad when you don't get it!
The whole point is that the more rings you have the easier it is for you to grab 1 and continue. You should not be worried about having tones of rings your first time around.
You lose them all because the game is punishing you for either playing badly or not knowing the layout of the level. Level knowledge will come the more you play the game.
Going fast and high ring counts are actually rewards for playing great and knowing the level, which is the genus for all of the successful Sonic Games
Sonic 1-3 Sonic Adventure 1-2 all have this built in mind.
Even Uleashed and Generations have it built in but the move the focus from high ring counts to clear time and the ranking system
Yes there's a method to the madness, stop saying its bad when you don't get it!
OP
OP
hah, i was actually just watching that series and is partly the inspiration for this. i remember one point he was at like 40 rings, got hit by a big robot hammer dude, went to 0, and before he could get up and out of the way he straight up died. it was hilarious though reminded me this system works very strangely with the 3D games
I really like it personally as it's a layered system that grows with the player. If you're not good at the game and get hit a lot you usually have an opportunity to get at least one ring back which protects you from dying if you're hit again. This makes it more forgiving for new players than other games and probably helped with its appeal to younger or less experienced players. As you improve and get hit less you can then try and build them up and go for extra lives to help you complete the game or special stages for Chaos Emeralds. Not to mention there are also shield pickups which prevent ring loss too.
Sonic's ring system is certainly one of the most unique health systems in gaming. No, you're not going to have the normal experience of having a health bar that goes up and down, but it does create for interesting gameplay scenarios in its own right, like:
- The tension when you have no rings and are desperate to find one ASAP
- The tension when you're close to 100 and want to reach it without taking a hit
- The tension in a boss fight when you need to keep regrabbing your rings, especially when you only have one left and sometimes have to pull risky maneuvers to grab it again before it leaves the screen, and if it does leave the screen, the tension of knowing you have to do the rest of the boss fight without getting hit
It's a more interesting and fun mechanic keeps the adrenaline going when you are chasing down the same 3 rings over and over.
Thread started out wild but I'm happy to see most people agree its a good system that compliments the gameplay and helps make the game accessible to younger players.
I always found 2d Mario much more punishing than Sonic. Rings allow you to take multiple hits and keep going which means bosses can be more dangerous and interesting than other games. It also means levels can be giant as health isn't a limited resource.
It does seem a bit strange in modern Sonic games but I think it still works.
I always found 2d Mario much more punishing than Sonic. Rings allow you to take multiple hits and keep going which means bosses can be more dangerous and interesting than other games. It also means levels can be giant as health isn't a limited resource.
It does seem a bit strange in modern Sonic games but I think it still works.
The ring system is ingenious for reasons many people in this thread have already explained better than I could. Admittedly yes, it was better in the classic games than its implementation in the later games, but it's so iconic at this point that they'll never get rid of it. In fact, Sonic Forces actually did try to get rid of it to make the game more difficult, with the Hedgehog Avatar being the only character that could utilize it as their special ability, but there was such an outcry over the removal that they ultimately put it back in for Sonic and the other Avatars in the day one patch and changed the Hedgehog Avatar's ability to simply having scattered rings stick around slightly longer.
It's actually quite ingenious in its simplicity in how it adapts to players of all levels:
For a beginner player, it allows great flexibility in taking hits and surviving to the end of the stage. A beginner just wants to get to the next act and is not necessarily concerned with getting a high ring count or score. As long as they have at least 1 ring, they can achieve this.
An intermediate player will start appreciating semi-high ring counts and begin to play more carefully in order to keep them, forcing them to learn stage layouts, find more efficient paths or more rewarding item boxes. While losing them all suddenly feels bad (I mean shouldn't it?), it's also a moment of learning for the next replay which feels good. Also an intermediate player doesn't need to rack up obscene ring amounts to be rewarded. Lives and access to bonus stages are easily within reach at 50/100 ring milestones. Subsequent playthroughs may also see these players find the locations of helpful items like shields (extra hit, bouncing, attracts more rings), which feels immensely rewarding.
An advanced player, now taking into account all of their experience is encouraged to take the most optimized, rewarding path in the stage for score. Experimentation and exploiting the layouts and natural physics of the stage all build for a highly satisfying, replayable gameplay loop for each stage. The mounting ring count also adds a progressively scaling sense of tension as you near the end of a stage. You want to keep them all. As you replay the stages, you'll come to see which paths grant you the fastest route and most rings by the end.
The key thing with Sonic games is that they all condition the player to replay the stages for better performance as you learn their layouts. The more you dive into their replayability, the more rewarding each playthrough is. It's one of gaming's finest, most unique health mechanics that can be appreciated on several levels, while being so simple both a beginner/child or veteran player can understand and leverage it in different ways on their way to the end of the stage.
For a beginner player, it allows great flexibility in taking hits and surviving to the end of the stage. A beginner just wants to get to the next act and is not necessarily concerned with getting a high ring count or score. As long as they have at least 1 ring, they can achieve this.
An intermediate player will start appreciating semi-high ring counts and begin to play more carefully in order to keep them, forcing them to learn stage layouts, find more efficient paths or more rewarding item boxes. While losing them all suddenly feels bad (I mean shouldn't it?), it's also a moment of learning for the next replay which feels good. Also an intermediate player doesn't need to rack up obscene ring amounts to be rewarded. Lives and access to bonus stages are easily within reach at 50/100 ring milestones. Subsequent playthroughs may also see these players find the locations of helpful items like shields (extra hit, bouncing, attracts more rings), which feels immensely rewarding.
An advanced player, now taking into account all of their experience is encouraged to take the most optimized, rewarding path in the stage for score. Experimentation and exploiting the layouts and natural physics of the stage all build for a highly satisfying, replayable gameplay loop for each stage. The mounting ring count also adds a progressively scaling sense of tension as you near the end of a stage. You want to keep them all. As you replay the stages, you'll come to see which paths grant you the fastest route and most rings by the end.
The key thing with Sonic games is that they all condition the player to replay the stages for better performance as you learn their layouts. The more you dive into their replayability, the more rewarding each playthrough is. It's one of gaming's finest, most unique health mechanics that can be appreciated on several levels, while being so simple both a beginner/child or veteran player can understand and leverage it in different ways on their way to the end of the stage.
its a fantastic system imo, it really promotes risky play, as long as youre fast enough you can grab ur rings back and keep moving! or keep fighting the boss.
having more makes it easier to grab more when u lose them, so having 2 is significantly better than 1 for example as with 2 you can escape to either direction to grab them during a boss fight
also in a game like mario you are having fun with a powerup and then you get hit and youre punished by having less fun and less abilities. That makes me never wanna go for risky jumps or chain a buncha hops on enemies, i wanna keep my fireflower
in sonic you are only being careful if you need a certain amount for a special stage or a nice high score. Sonic can be both a game of reckless abandon and a careful slow platformer depending if someone is worried about holding onto their rings. This adds a ton of player expression and personality! and a super good skill curve, as good players will be able to play fast and risky while holding onto all their rings
I think the ring system is fantastic and what holds like every 2d sonic together. In 3d sonic games its really rare to get hit so it doesnt matter but it does a lot to make 2d sonic have a higher skill floor AND skill ceiling. It lets new players expirience the fun of playing reckless sonic without punishing them too hard for mistakes, and leads to cool self imposed challenges. In generally its a great mechanical way of putting the player in sonics shoes, because hes always cracking wise and barely avoiding danger as well.
having more makes it easier to grab more when u lose them, so having 2 is significantly better than 1 for example as with 2 you can escape to either direction to grab them during a boss fight
also in a game like mario you are having fun with a powerup and then you get hit and youre punished by having less fun and less abilities. That makes me never wanna go for risky jumps or chain a buncha hops on enemies, i wanna keep my fireflower
in sonic you are only being careful if you need a certain amount for a special stage or a nice high score. Sonic can be both a game of reckless abandon and a careful slow platformer depending if someone is worried about holding onto their rings. This adds a ton of player expression and personality! and a super good skill curve, as good players will be able to play fast and risky while holding onto all their rings
I think the ring system is fantastic and what holds like every 2d sonic together. In 3d sonic games its really rare to get hit so it doesnt matter but it does a lot to make 2d sonic have a higher skill floor AND skill ceiling. It lets new players expirience the fun of playing reckless sonic without punishing them too hard for mistakes, and leads to cool self imposed challenges. In generally its a great mechanical way of putting the player in sonics shoes, because hes always cracking wise and barely avoiding danger as well.
There's a bunch of games in the series where you don't drop to 0 rings I one hit.
Hell in Forces they balanced so you keep more to rings on hit but you also can only collect a maximum of 100 rings. Change it to hard mode and now you loose all rings in one hit, but there's no limit to how many you can collect.
Hell in Forces they balanced so you keep more to rings on hit but you also can only collect a maximum of 100 rings. Change it to hard mode and now you loose all rings in one hit, but there's no limit to how many you can collect.
It works as intended in the old 2D games imo because it puts an emphasis on not getting hit if you want a high score(which isn't too difficult once you've beaten the game a few times). Part of the appeal of score attack type of games is finding the best paths with most coins and replaying the games till you can find those optimal paths. That being said I don't really care about coins at all and prefer to just try speed running levels.
I love the ring system, and I hate it when games modify how it works, either by keeping you with a certain number of rings, out only dropping one ring whilst losing all of them.
You need rings for special stages and to collect lives, as well as for your score for whoever cares about that lol.
You need rings for special stages and to collect lives, as well as for your score for whoever cares about that lol.
No, honestly, I think it's pretty brilliant. The thing with it is that it encourages you to go fast and not worry too much -- which people keep saying you apparently can't do in these games, but to which I've never seen a real argument for. See, it's generally very easy to go from the "will die" to "won't die" state, even immediately after taking a hit. If the game only offered a health bar with a finite amount of hits, that would definitely discourage speedy play, since you would never know when your next health powerup will be coming up. With the way rings work, however, the game makes it clear that it's OK to make mistakes. It's OK to go fast if you want to and take a hit or two. You'll generally have plenty of chances to just keep on going.
Because of this, the game can gently change its difficulty curve to give you less rings when it wants to emphasize difficulty and careful play. I think the real problem people are seeing is that you can't enter special stages in certain Sonic games without a certain number of rings, which does encourage more careful play and mastery of the game.
Which is why, clearly, Sonic 3&K is the best of the classic trilogy. :P
Because of this, the game can gently change its difficulty curve to give you less rings when it wants to emphasize difficulty and careful play. I think the real problem people are seeing is that you can't enter special stages in certain Sonic games without a certain number of rings, which does encourage more careful play and mastery of the game.
Which is why, clearly, Sonic 3&K is the best of the classic trilogy. :P
It's actually a really interesting mechanic. The more rings you collect, the more chances you will be able to restore yourself when hit. In the OP's scenario, getting hit with 90 rings, you may be able to get 60 of those back; getting hit with 60, maybe you will retrieve 30; and from the 30, maybe you will at least retrieve 1 -- all of which is of course safer than starting with 1, getting hit and seeing the 1 ring fly away from you.
As others have said, it's really an insanely forgiving health system. As long as you can hold onto at least one, you're invincible. Yes, your ability to have a shot at getting a Chaos Emerald is (most of the time) tied to your ability to have a number at the end of the stage.
But, the core gameplay of Sonic is replaying the game until you know the physics system and the levels like the back of your hand. It's not a one-and-done game, you're meant to play thorough the games a ton, and figure out how the game will let you build momentum through it.
cranky says git gud etc
But, the core gameplay of Sonic is replaying the game until you know the physics system and the levels like the back of your hand. It's not a one-and-done game, you're meant to play thorough the games a ton, and figure out how the game will let you build momentum through it.
cranky says git gud etc
There are way too many posts in this topic describing situations where somehow you're blindsided by something that causes you to lose rings, when really that's almost never the case in a Sonic game.
Badniks, spikes, etc are generally placed in slower sections where your momentum has already stopped to provide obstacles to traverse. They are not, for instance, placed immediately off a loop just off screen waiting for the game to "Get you" with something you can't possibly have predicted was coming.
Badniks, spikes, etc are generally placed in slower sections where your momentum has already stopped to provide obstacles to traverse. They are not, for instance, placed immediately off a loop just off screen waiting for the game to "Get you" with something you can't possibly have predicted was coming.
It's good, actually
the system is actually fairly tailored difficulty wise in a way other platformers cant by limiting you hits in certain scenarios.You may need only one rung to survive but it becomes much more difficult in boss encounters, which is the whole point. It doesnt punish you for going speedy and honestly i don't think a numbered hit system or alternatives are tailored to this well.
the system is actually fairly tailored difficulty wise in a way other platformers cant by limiting you hits in certain scenarios.You may need only one rung to survive but it becomes much more difficult in boss encounters, which is the whole point. It doesnt punish you for going speedy and honestly i don't think a numbered hit system or alternatives are tailored to this well.
I mean, it's part of the risk and the fun. You're not supposed to get hit, and you're rewarded for your skill with being able to keep all of your rings.
You get another chance to survive at the expense of losing your rings. Think of it more like you're buying an extra life with the rings you collected.
You get another chance to survive at the expense of losing your rings. Think of it more like you're buying an extra life with the rings you collected.
I've got the opposite take.
Its basically a trials game where you want to get perfect runs without taking damage. That you can get by with just one ring is a HUGE bone thrown in favor of accessibility in a genre that has largely evolved to make you start over when you make a single mistake.
Its basically a trials game where you want to get perfect runs without taking damage. That you can get by with just one ring is a HUGE bone thrown in favor of accessibility in a genre that has largely evolved to make you start over when you make a single mistake.
No, it's awesome. It basically folds a health and item bonus score into one metric. It gives you a buffer so you can more carefully learn stages. I'd say it's one of the best health systems in platformers.
The thing is... it does depend on the number of rings you have how much health you have, if for example you can only recover 25% of your rings it's much better to have 80 rings and recover 20 than have 4 and recover 1, because next time you get hit and you only ha e 1 you've probably got a 75% chance of not recovering it. So in a boss fight it's a big deal having 80 rings or 3 rings...
Kind of kills the momentum of the game, so not a fan.
I'm sure there will be people who disagree, but I preferred the Yoshi's Island variation of this health system.
I'm sure there will be people who disagree, but I preferred the Yoshi's Island variation of this health system.
- Only one Baby Mario to chase
- Lots of ways to get Baby Mario back (eggs, tongue, touch)
- Still "infinite health", but still also maintains risk
It's a great mechanic and truly makes the 16 bit systems all work. Plus it was way more forgiving than all similar platformers at the time while also giving you incentives to go for high ring counts.
I've always thought it was great. I never cared to collect all the rings or as many as possible. The more rings you have the easier it is to grab some when you get hurt. As long as you can always grab one ring from your pile you're good to keep fighting. I dunno, I think it makes it so you slow down as little as possible. If you had a more traditional health system and died you'd have to start over or go back to last check point. With this, just keep going but make sure you have a ring on you!
These ^
Who played 2D platformers back then and didn't care about extra lives?
There were several "how do you play Sonic" threads before so you'd be 100% right.
Wait, why did this immediately hurt Mario instead of knocking him off of Yoshi?
It's literally one of the cleanest, most effective pieces of game design of that era, perhaps all time. Fucking hell...
My only real issue with this health system is that you can continually keep grabbing the same one ring over and over to avoid death, and that almost feels as though it shouldn't be allowed.
It only kills momentum if that's what you choose.
You can ignore your lost rings and carry on, picking up new ones on the way.
That only works on Yoshi's Island because baby Mario is a main mechanic that's essential to how you approach every level and encounter. In sonic games, rings are not meant to be that important to you, and instead of trying to get back what you dropped you're encouraged to keep going and get more rings ahead.