Is there anyway to talk about immigration reform without the "you are a racist" talk

[BarryAllen]

this seems to be a difficult issue. There are problems with the immigration system, and not just the become a citizen part. The whole visa thing of hiring people from other countries for coding jobs on those visas that will work for way less than an American. That's a program that should be scrapped. Being able to hire people from other countries instead of people from here because it's cheaper.

It's this type of immigration that does need reform. It's not right. putting "America first" on certain things isn't bad. I think America should try to fix its homeless problem first instead of taking refugee from war torn countries. These are American citizens that people just don't care about.

Should people from certain countries have to go through a more difficult immigration than others? I mean a person from Canada or The UK process shouldn't be the same as countries going through civil wars or countries like where the New York City truck driver was from.

But see you can't talk immigration reform because people just assume everything is racist. But immigration is such a problem. The wall is not an immigration solution. But fixing the loopholes with work visas that companies abuse to use for low wages instead of hiring Americans. Or refugees that get "free" houses in America but homeless people get nothing

 

[MMaRsu]

But?

 

[BY2K]

As long as you avoid the terms "Great Replacement" and "White Genocide"...

 

[hotcyder]

Depends if you frame it as a problem of those that exploit immigrants vs the immigrants themselves.

Zero Hour Contracts and businesses that hire cheap labour are the issue, not the people they exploit.

Homelessness is an issue that needs to be improved, but that doesn't mean there's no capacity to also support refugees.

Immigrants aren't the problem with Immigrant Crisis - it's the factors that put them there and keep them there.

 

[Saganator]

Most reasonable people who would be able to hold debate about immigration without racism would probably agree with you on your points. The racist accusations get thrown around when people argue that the US is a Christian (false) country or that immigrants are often criminals (false).

 

[Heshinsi]

What I found during the 2015 Canadian federal elections and the subsequent Syrian refugee initiative, was that people who kept talking about "Canadians first", generally never did anything nor cared for the Canadians they now wanted the government to help instead. Or they ignored the fact the government already had policies in place to help these groups. They only seem to care when they don't want a group they don't like being helped. That's when they go, "yeah but we should be helping *insert group of Canadians they suddenly care for* instead!"

Plus, the procedures for bringing in refugees and the one for immigration are different. So a person from Canada or the U.K. aren't going through the same process as some one from a country in a civil war.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

The problem with sorting out homeless people out first before refugees is that there's not mutually exclusive. You don't have to choose.

A lot of homeless people are homeless for a wide variety of reasons and it's not as simple as putting them into a house and being done with it, there's support needed for mental health issues, including addictions, and support for finding employment and, possibly, needing to further education. These could also be people forced to make a choice between living on the streets or being raped or assaulted at home.

Refugees aren't coming to other countries because they want to. They had lives before. One of the biggest "talking points" of the Syrian refugees was that they had mobile phones as if they didn't have lives before they became refugees. In most cases the refugees are the people from those war torn countries rich enough, educated enough and with enough connections to make it out alive. The poor and uneducated are the ones who die in bombing raids.

You can help the homeless and you can help refugees. There's enough money to help them all, but it's how it's handled that matters.

 

[Pirateluigi]

Honestly? It's a tricky area. If you want to have a discussion on improving H1B1 visas, sure let's do that. But the moment you say we shouldn't take in refugees, at the very best I'm going to look at you side eyed.

There also comes the challenge of being associated with so many people that don't like immigration simply because they are racist and nationalistic. Peoole that don't understand that healthy levels of immigration are necessary to growing the economy and to avoiding negative population growth.

So, it's very tricky.

 

[gcwy]

I think most concerns for immigration are valid, however, it's when people make it an individual issue is the problem. Blaming it on the immigrants/refugees accomplishes nothing.

 

[BarryAllen]

The problem in America one will be treated more resources than the other I'm not saying cut refugees but homeless more important

 

[BarryAllen]

I think most concerns for immigration are valid, however, it's when people make it an individual issue is the problem. Blaming it on the immigrants/refugees accomplishes nothing.

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That's not at all what was pointed out. It was stating key issues that get loss in an immigration argument where people just say "islamophicphobe or racist"

 

[Deleted member 268]

Has it crossed your mind that if people tend to think you're racist it might be you that's the problem?

You're naive if you think well structured immigration policy and housing reform is an either or situation.

That's conservative bullshit polluting your mind to pit you against those brown folk coming to take "what's yours."

Truth is, your pockets are getting picked now and they'll continue to get picked while you worry about those pesky refugees and immigrants instead of corporate tax and campaign finance reform, because there's enough wealth in America to resolve all those problems that simply isn't being taxed properly, and nor will it so long you and others like you think it's immigrants and refugees that are the problem.

 

[KingSnake]

The problem in America one will be treated more resources than the other I'm not saying cut refugees but homeless more important

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Why?

 

[V_Arnold]

The problem in America one will be treated more resources than the other I'm not saying cut refugees but homeless more important

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Maybe, just maybe, both are more important than the US retaining its global superpower status and "protecting its overseas interests", which gets like....a thousand times more budget allocated to them than both immigration and/or "solving" homelessness problem.

Here is the thing though: usually anti-immigration nations are not good at helping their own needy citizens either, because it all boils down to philosophic and moral differences about whether you want to help those in need, or create a framework where they are their own makers, they are responsible for themselves, MANIFEST YOUR DESTINY etc.

There will be literally no goverment that cuts back on immigration, then goes on to expand on healthcare or more socialist housing programs. None. Just look at what happened with the Brexit NHS lies. Guess where the "saved" money will go? Well, not towards british healthcare.

These things are not coincidences. It is a fundamental difference in how one treats other human beings.

 

[BarryAllen]

Why?

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Because they are Americans and live here. Americans should be given priority.

 

[Tuck]

There isn't anything wrong with having standards. I reject the idea that a country must take in immigrants and expect nothing from them in return. However, when it comes to refuges, I do believe it is the right thing to loosen those standards a bit and focus on helping people; that does not mean opening the floodgates (Like Merkel did), but trying to be more accommodating to people in need is the right thing to do.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people use "we need to have standards" as a smokescreen for "I don't want brown people coming to this country."

 

[Wireframe]

Has it crossed your mind that if people tend to think you're racist it might be you that's the problem?

You're naive if you think well structured immigration policy and housing reform is an either or situation.

That's conservative bullshit polluting your mind to pit you against those brown folk coming to take "what's yours."

Truth is, your pockets are getting picked now and they'll continue to get picked while you worry about those pesky refugees and immigrants instead of corporate tax and campaign finance reform, because there's enough wealth in America to resolve all those problems that simply isn't being taxed properly, and nor will it so long you and others like you think it's immigrants and refugees that are the problem.

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This post is very reminiscent of the old forum, was it really necessary?

 

[plagiarize]

Because they are Americans and live here. Americans should be given priority.

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So are refugees.

We should help refugees and we should help homeless people. If we're failing to help one, that's a terrible excuse to use to not help the other.

 

[Usul]

In Australia it's impossible. The country has become a real mess on the issue and god forbid if you say something you'll have every new generational middle class citizen jumping down your throat about it.

 

[Messofanego]

Don't think it's a mutually exclusive thing of funding that would go to help homeless is taken away from helping immigrants. Both can be tackled.

Always good to remember if you aren't native American, you're also an immigrant to the USA so have some empathy to immigrants' struggles to get into the country just like your family got in, too.

"Should people from certain countries have to go through a more difficult immigration than others? I mean a person from Canada or The UK process shouldn't be the same as countries going through civil wars"

Why shouldn't it be the same?

 

[KingSnake]

Because they are Americans and live here. Americans should be given priority.

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Syrian civil war is a direct result of American intervention. Those refugees are in a big part because of American foreign policy. Responsibility is important too, you know?

Plus, I doubt that seeing how few refugees US takes in anyhow if you stop altogether you could do anything big with that funding. We are talking here about thousands vs. millions, no?

Then, I read that there are programs for homeless people, like emergency shelters and so on. Do those programs and the programs for refugees share the same budget?

 

[BarryAllen]

So are refugees.

We should help refugees and we should help homeless people. If we're failing to help one, that's a terrible excuse to use to not help the other.

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No they aren't. Refugees don't just come here and poof are American citizens if that is the process that's terrible

 

[Alucrid]

Or refugees that get "free" houses in America but homeless people get nothing

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where in america is there a place that is actively taking in refugees for "free" (why are there quotation marks?) housing but at the same time have no programs to assist the homeless as well?

 

[Deleted member 15737]

Can you tell me more about why you think immigration is a problem?

The first example you gave (hiring coders) i might not grasp fully. Are they being paid minimim wage or above? If so, what's the problem? Maybe its policy that needs reform, and not immigration.

And I agree more resources should be available to the homeless population. Not sure what that has to do with immigration. Outside of the fact that less taxes will never equal more support for either group.

 

[plagiarize]

No they aren't. Refugees don't just come here and poof are American citizens if that is the process that's terrible

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Why? Once they're given refuge why shouldn't they get to work and vote? How long should they suffer as second class citizens without a nationality before they get to be considered full members of this society?

If you're giving people refuge, it's because you already agree that their lives were in danger in the country they previously lived in. I think part of the issue is conflating refugees with immigration. They're really two separate issues with their own considerations.

The refugee process is, refugee to permanent resident (eligible after a year), then after 5 years you are eligible to become a full citizen with voting rights.

 

[Noroi_Kisaragi]

I think its important to keep context in mind. Immigration as a concept depends on the country. There are methods that work for 1 country, but not another. People who jump to the "racist" label without context and without desire to learn the reasons therefore already have a label on you and arent willing to change it no matter how hard you try. Not worth imo

 

[Friendly Monster]

Should people from certain countries have to go through a more difficult immigration than others? I mean a person from Canada or The UK process shouldn't be the same as countries going through civil wars

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I think you are conflating immigrants and refugees. Do you really think there is the same visa process for both?

 

[gcwy]

That's not at all what was pointed out. It was stating key issues that get loss in an immigration argument where people just say "islamophicphobe or racist"

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You asked how you can avoid accusations of racism and the like in these arguments, I gave my suggestions.

 

[Deleted member 268]

This post is very reminiscent of the old forum, was it really necessary?

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I don't know what it is you thought was going to be different about this place from the old place.

The moderation might be different, but the community isn't.

If you want to complain about something, be prepared to defend your position, because that's not going to be any different either.

 

[BarryAllen]

I think you are conflating immigrants and refugees. Do you really think there is the same visa process for both?

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No I meant people who want to become citizens from like Where the NYC bomber was from and those countries.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

What I found during the 2015 Canadian federal elections and the subsequent Syrian refugee initiative, was that people who kept talking about "Canadians first", generally never did anything nor cared for the Canadians they now wanted the government to help instead. Or they ignored the fact the government already had policies in place to help these groups. They only seem to care when they don't want a group they don't like being helped. That's when they go, "yeah but we should be helping *insert group of Canadians they suddenly care for* instead!"

Plus, the procedures for bringing in refugees and the one for immigration are different. So a person from Canada or the U.K. aren't going through the same process as some one from a country in a civil war.

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Yep, the bolded is way too true.

You'll hear Nick Ferrari on LBC making it his mission to say that poverty does not exist in the UK in an effort to downplay the suffering of his fellow brits.

The next morning the subject is foreign aid and he's crying about how its a travesty that the UK is sending x millions to x country when you have homeless children and elderly people dying in their homes because they can't afford to turn on the heating.

Then of course there s the lazy layabout immigrants taking all the jobs.

 

[Llyrwenne]

Your argument is 'Why should we help refugees when we could x?'.

The flaw in that is that it presumes that supporting refugees somehow prohibits working on x, or that doing x would require not supporting refugees. Why can both not be done? Whatever your x may be, it likely can be worked on while still supporting refugees, so either your argument just doesn't work, or there is something more to your opinion that you are not sharing / not willing to share.

From there it is easy to assume that some form of racism / prejudice is involved.

That's why it is hard to talk about immigration reform without also at the very least discussing racism.

 

[Friendly Monster]

No I meant people who want to become citizens from like Where the NYC bomber was from and those countries.

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What NYC bomber?

 

[Illest1]

The problem with sorting out homeless people out first before refugees is that there's not mutually exclusive. You don't have to choose.

A lot of homeless people are homeless for a wide variety of reasons and it's not as simple as putting them into a house and being done with it, there's support needed for mental health issues, including addictions, and support for finding employment and, possibly, needing to further education. These could also be people forced to make a choice between living on the streets or being raped or assaulted at home.

Refugees aren't coming to other countries because they want to. They had lives before. One of the biggest "talking points" of the Syrian refugees was that they had mobile phones as if they didn't have lives before they became refugees. In most cases the refugees are the people from those war torn countries rich enough, educated enough and with enough connections to make it out alive. The poor and uneducated are the ones who die in bombing raids.

You can help the homeless and you can help refugees. There's enough money to help them all, but it's how it's handled that matters.

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Basically how I feel about it.

 

[Alucrid]

No I meant people who want to become citizens from like Where the NYC bomber was from and those countries.

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uzbekistan? you could at least name the country. and by "those countries" do you mean the middle east? countries that are eligible for the diversity visa lottery? honestly maybe you should be more thoughtful in your replies if you're being constantly derailed by "you are a racist talk".

What NYC bomber?

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i'm assuming that's conflation on his part with the recent terrorist attack in nyc

 

[Igniz12]

This post is very reminiscent of the old forum, was it really necessary?

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I see this type of post or similar posts like this on Reset and idk what it means. Is it the tone or the content. If its the former....hmmm ok I can see that but if its the latter then I don't get it. Surely if the politics of the old place caused you to leave then eventually you'd leave here too.

 

[Parthenios]

I think you could flowchart this out.

"Is the underlying concern this person has with the immigration system or with immigrants themselves?"

"System->Probably not racist"

"Immigrants->Probably racist"

 

[Dingens]

I know this may come as a shock to you, but you are aware that
1) most refugees nowadays are a direct consequence of American foreign policy
2) other more poor countries are already paying way more for the damage your country caused (which makes you, as a voter and tax payer indirectly responsible as well)

If you want to have "less poor foreigners", you're rallying against the wrong people. If anything you just cement the status-quo

Also this:

Has it crossed your mind that if people tend to think you're racist it might be you that's the problem?

You're naive if you think well structured immigration policy and housing reform is an either or situation.

That's conservative bullshit polluting your mind to pit you
against those brown folk coming to take "what's yours."

Truth is, your pockets are gettng
picked now and they'll continue to get picked while you worry about those pesky refugees and immigrants instead of corporate tax and campaign finance reform, because there's enough wealth in America to resolve all those problems that simply isn't being taxed properly, and nor will it so long you and others like you think it's immigrants and refugees that are the problem.

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[gutter_trash]

"they too our jobs! they took our jerbs! they terk er jerb!"

unemployment is at it's lowest, businesses can't find people to take certain jobs, immigration is necessery to keep the ball rolling

 

[Friendly Monster]

i'm assuming that's conflation on his part with the recent terrorist attack in nyc

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Me too, I just wanted to point out the ignorance.

 

[Codeblue]

Because they are Americans and live here. Americans should be given priority.

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Given that we have a hand in creating refugees, I think we have an obligation to take some in. Not only that but you provide a false dichotomy of choosing one over the other while assuming that they will necessarily be an economic drain, when many refugees are educated and often contribute to the country.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

We can do both? Perhaps take some of that oversized military budget and help both immigrants and homeless?

 

[Wireframe]

I see this type of post or similar posts like this on Reset and idk what it means. Is it the tone or the content. If its the former....hmmm ok I can see that but if its the latter then I don't get it. Surely if the politics of the old place caused you to leave then eventually you'd leave here too.

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In this case the tone. But in general attacking the poster instead of their argument.

 

[Avitus]

"they too our jobs! they took our jerbs! they terk er jerb!"

unemployment is at it's lowest, businesses can't find people to take certain jobs, immigration is necessery to keep the ball rolling

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The 'problem' with immigration in the U.S. is that we don't have enough of it. We have an incredible amount of space yet no one to fill it. I'm all for streamlining the process.

 

[KingSnake]

This false dichotomy can be played in so many ways. Instead of spending so much money on military, including providing weapons and training for groups that cause instability that leads to refugees even existing maybe those money would be better used to help the homeless.

 

[BarryAllen]

I don't believe that unemployment number. How many people stopped looking etc the number is higher than it really is

 

[jfkgoblue]

Can you tell me more about why you think immigration is a problem?

The first example you gave (hiring coders) i might not grasp fully. Are they being paid minimim wage or above? If so, what's the problem? Maybe its policy that needs reform, and not immigration.

And I agree more resources should be available to the homeless population. Not sure what that has to do with immigration. Outside of the fact that less taxes will never equal more support for either group.

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I think he is referring to tech companies abusing the H1B visa program by hiring foreign workers far below market value and since their entire lives are predicated on that company contuining to sponsor them, they can never leave that job. So it essentially becomes cheap labor for skilled work that locks Americans out of those jobs because they have the ability to move jobs.

 

[theDream]

I guess one might say you are racist because you have a problem with ridiculously hardworking Indian immigrants coming to America and not Irish immigrants. Somehow these concerns for jobs don't matter much when its white Europeans coming over.

I guess one might say you are racist because you are targeting Syrian refugees of all people. And not the non Muslim refugees USA has been taking every year from all over the world, for decades and decades. Somehow the concern that refugees are harming the homeless only happens when it's people you don't like.

If you don't want to come across as a racist don't exclusively target non whites. It's pretty easy, if you actually aren't a racist. Otherwise, I can see how it would be tricky or confusing.

 

[BarryAllen]

I think he is referring to tech companies abusing the H1B visa program by hiring foreign workers far below market value and since their entire lives are predicated on that company contuining to sponsor them, they can never leave that job. So it essentially becomes cheap labor for skilled work that locks Americans out of those jobs because they have the ability to move jobs.

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^

 

[gutter_trash]

The 'problem' with immigration in the U.S. is that we don't have enough of it. We have an incredible amount of space yet no one to fill it. I'm all for streamlining the process.

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i never liked that argument thhough, because you have space, it should be plundered and wrecked with human over-population?

there is a reason why black bears and cougars are walking around in suburbia... because suburbia crossed them.
.......


back on topic, my views are about filling jobs that Americans either don't want to do and the scarcity of specialized workers in certain fields.


the reason why certain sectors and specialized sectors of employment have lots of immigrants is because employers are unable to find Americans to fill those job postings.