LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,719
Since it seems like most folks are on roughly the same page here so far ("morally fine, legally who cares" or similar), consider this example:

Super Smash Bros. Brawl includes "Masterpieces", which are virtual console games with an added external time limit. Essentially, demos, but all the data was there. By using a code to disable the time limit, you could gain access to a whole bunch of software that would have cost you 5 or 8 dollars apiece on the eshop, where the masterpiece games were being sold individually.

Still morally fine? I feel like most will still say it is, but it's definitely a step up from infinite money codes, right?
Yes it would be fine, just like how extracting roms bought on the VC to use on other emulators is fine.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,568
China
Reminder that you do not own games. You purchase a license to be able to access the contents. So no, you technically did not buy a game. The digital software is still within their rights.

The EU court ruled in the Oracle case that you "own" the games as in "ownership", not just a licence (and in turn can then resell it if you sell the account). Thats why you should also be able do whatever you want with them for yourself.

If you go that way you can already argue that changing the resolution in an *ini file of the game is piracy, because you changed some values.
 
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Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,250
So I think the TC is asking the moral question here? Cause if he's asking the legal one my answer is I'm not qualified to say whether or not although I would somewhat assume the legality would be somewhat dependent on where in the world you are?
As for the moral question of course I don't think that's piracy. If we go to the license thing you're actually not stealing these cheat items when you modify yourself these values.

To me that's like saying you making your own burger is stealing from mcdonalds. Cause in the moment when you do your own cheat you're not stealing the thing that sellers provide you're making your own. Cause if we'd morally accept that any modification based action is piracy to gain something similar to what the publishers are selling then it seems to me all rights in modding die and maybe this is different depending on where you come from but for private use I think over here in the EU we have certain rights to modify whatever we buy. Like let's take this to something non digital I'm fairly sure it is totally ok here where I live to buy computer case here and if you'd have the skill to modify that into something else that is similar to something same seller of said case is selling you're totally free to modify that case for private use yourself.

That is of course assuming you can get whatever you're getting through cheatengine also naturally in the game(raising exp, strength parameters etc). Now publishers generally do prevent this by technology but let's say if it were possibly to get money only exchangeable currency with cheatengine then yes that would probably be piracy in my eyes.
 
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bugulu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
145
Yes. You may think it's justified, and that's up to you, but it's pretty much the definition of piracy. You're circumventing digital protections to gain access to digital content that you did not pay the creators for, even though they deemed that you should.

It's up to everyone to reconcile this morally, but if we stick to pure letter of the definition it is piracy.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. You paid for the license to play the game. You didn't pay the license to use the other things. It's piracy at its finest.
But I wouldn't exactly sweat about it; developers prefer that you buy the game in the first place than pirating it all together, which some people tend to do with glorified excuses for doing so.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
Is not illegal, is a breach of contract(of a contract that is clearly overstepping its boundaries). Didn't Nintendo sue game genie, lost and ended up paying them like 15 million?

If you need to circumvent drm to do it though, then yes, is a crime (although not piracy).

The EU court ruled in the Oracle case that you "own" the games as in "ownership", not just a licence (and in turn can then resell it if you sell the account). Thats why you should also be able do whatever you want with them for yourself.

If you go that way you can already argue that changing the resolution in an *ini file of the game is piracy, because you changed some values.

No, the EU court said that you can sell the license(to the point that if you buy a multiseat license you have to sell the whole of it, however that works), you can sell your license just like you can sell your dvd's(which are also a license).

I guess you can say you own the license, the distinction between license and owning doesnt really matter for how people understand it really, i guess is a difficulty of the law but software is pure copyright there is no physical aspect of it, thus the only truly owner of the software is the copyright holder, they merely license their software to us and give us the right to execute it.

I could be wrong but i think that how it is.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Changing values in RAM is not the same as downloading something you don't own. At worst you're breaking a games EULA, which have dubious legal validity. It'd be a fun case to see taken to trial.
 

Venom

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,635
Manchester, UK
Think of it this way.

The GTA games has cheats to Spawn things like a Lazer Jet, Rhino tank etc. Now what happens if in GTA6 R* asks you to buy that item as a MTX but instead you just find a way to bypass that and you add one in yourself?

Is this Piracy?
 

Deleted member 9971

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,743
Imo even using nfc chips to get amiibo content is no piracy imo, sure gray area but morally fine. And i say this as a owner who has 60+ of em.

For singleplayer games in general well that honestly does not affect anyone so that's fine really and honestly it's no piracy at all not when it's about evil business practices. They still got the money from the game itself you bought.

I find the gta cash cheat fine multiplayer wise since it just is ridiculous that you need to grind 5+ hours for a nice car for example. well more even if you don't have a decent business. And the shark card prices are quite insane.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,568
China
No, the EU court said that you can sell the license(to the point that if you buy a multiseat license you have to sell the whole of it, however that works), you can sell your license just like you can sell your dvd's(which are also a license).

I guess you can say you own the license, the distinction between license and owning doesnt really matter for how people understand it really, i guess is a difficulty of the law but software is pure copyright there is no physical aspect of it, thus the only truly owner of the software is the copyright holder, they merely license their software to us and give us the right to execute it.

I could be wrong but i think that how it is.

Yeah. You are not wrong, but thats why I put "ownership" in brackets.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,391
Yeah, it's still piracy. You're acquiring for free something that the producer is trying to sell to you. However, it's more morally justifiable in my opinion than pirating an entire game. There are some good relevant differences, and the issue gets a lot murkier when you compare it to something like modding. I personally think in a non-competitive singleplayer game you should be entitled to modding your game, so what's the difference between modding your character to have, say, extra attack power or modding in the ability to open a bunch of loot boxes that give you extra attack power? Obviously if you use it to gain advantages in a multiplayer game it's a whole different deal, but in a singleplayer game? I dunno man. I wouldn't condemn anyone for it, and I certainly wouldn't be in favor of any legal recourse against them.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,719
Imo even using nfc chips to get amiibo content is no piracy imo, sure gray area but morally fine. And i say this as a owner who has 60+ of em.

For singleplayer games in general well that honestly does not affect anyone so that's fine really and honestly it's no piracy at all not when it's about evil business practices. They still got the money from the game itself you bought.

I find the gta cash cheat fine multiplayer wise since it just is ridiculous that you need to grind 5+ hours for a nice car for example. well more even if you don't have a decent business. And the shark card prices are quite insane.
Technically that is piracy, or at least copyright infringement, since your'e getting (from somewhere) the code stored on the RFID without buying it.

Although I agree it's no big deal, but it is legally distinct from using mods etc.
 

Yoshi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,055
Germany
I would argue it's not even a problem with multiplayer games. If a multiplayer game is any good, grinding does not give any significant advantage, therefore any automatic grinders are fine. You were not talking about cheat codes that give you an edge in an otherwise fair competition or solves complicated tasks for you, but just one doing dumb busywork for you. If grinding does give a significant advantage, it does not matter because the game is necessarily shit anyway.

However I would argue it is a form of piracy, because it circumvents the monetisation strategy of the game.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,044
Oooh, it's been a while since I last saw a thread of this nature. I've gone back and forth on what I think about it through the years, and I think my current considered thoughts are as follows:

* In a strict legal definition, it's absolutely not piracy.
* However, I'm not comfortable with the notion of "It's on the disc, therefore you own it".
* I don't think current laws about software are well-suited to the modern software environment; the laws are still very much tied to the notion of physical product, but I think they'd be better served by separating the idea of the physical medium from the actual digital product that resides on that medium. There's lots of places where this falls down in the modern software industry.
* It's easy to get angry about microtransactions, but what about something less egregious that uses the same structure. What about a demo that contains the full game which you can unlock with a purchased code? I don't think anyone would disagree that in some way circumventing that would be a problem (although again, probably not strictly piracy). We really need a one-size fits all solution that doesn't treat digital products differently merely due to the form it's distributed in.
* Maybe we need to more accurately formalise the notion of software licenses - but they absolutely need to be done properly.
* For one (major) thing, people absolutely should have the right to transfer a license to another under whatever terms they deem fit; digital product should be sellable.
* But in turn, having access to the data that comprises a digital product should not implicitly give you the right to use it. Independent of this whole context, the notion of "If you have access to data you have the right to manipulate it" does open up interesting privacy implications due to how networks work. Does your ISP have the right to all the data that goes through its systems on the way to you?

In short: At the moment it's all a bit messy, with exceptions and the same product (being the digital entity) being handled under different laws depending on the form it's distributed in. In a perfect world, this really ought to be fixed up, because it's a mess.

One thing I don't recall touching on in previous such discussions: What laws exist to prevent various illicit means of decoding broadcasts (Cable TV, Satellite TV, whatever)? Again, not strictly piracy; again, it's manipulating data you have access to but don't strictly have the right to decode.
 
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Nov 4, 2017
7,974
As demonstrated in the Galoob v Nintendo case, the modification of copyrighted software for personal use comes under the doctrine of fair use (https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/964/965/341457/). So long as your modification of the code does not involve providing proprietary code to another person, devaluing the original product or allowing you to make money from the original or derivative work, you should be golden.

Has the "Licensed, not sold" clause included in software sold in the EU ever been tested in court? Software companies put it in agreements to try to circumvent the first-sale doctrine. EULAs are funny things; there are inalienable rights you can't sign away, and AFAIK the content of the agreement has to be relevant to the provision and use of the software. E.g. If the iTunes agreement demanded that you give them your firstborn child, it's *probably* unenforceable because it's not relevant to the creation, distribution, installation, use or termination of iTunes.

These cases of course mean nothing if you live in other jurisdictions, plus these big rich companies could always just throw money at a case until you're bankrupt.
 

Iceternal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,516
I just wonder, if you mod in infinite money in Assassin's Creed Origins, is Ubisoft susceptible to ban your Uplay account ?
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,719
What about a demo that contains the full game which you can unlock with a purchased code?
That reminds me of how the original XBLA release of Shadow Complex had a way to glitch past the point at which the demo checked for your purchase (by pausing the game and picking "restart from last checkpoint" just before that point). Was a pretty funny situation, and I don't think it really impacted sales. You couldn't save, so you'd have to beat it in one sitting if you wanted to complete the game without paying for it. They updated the demo pretty soon after word got out about the bug. I used it to get an extended demo, but then bought it anyway.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,044
That reminds me of how the original XBLA release of Shadow Complex had a way to glitch past the point at which the demo checked for your purchase (by pausing the game and picking "restart from last checkpoint" just before that point). Was a pretty funny situation, and I don't think it really impacted sales. You couldn't save, so you'd have to beat it in one sitting if you wanted to complete the game without paying for it. They updated the demo pretty soon after word got out about the bug. I used it to get an extended demo, but then bought it anyway.
I recall a couple of demos from the magazine covermount era that gave away 'too much'; the PC demo of Robocod included the first level, but the first level included a collection of items which if you collected them in a certain order (Cake, Hammer, Earth, Apple, Tap) unlocked all levels, and that cheat was left in on the demo version - and another which I don't know quite how it actually happened, but the Legend adventure game Companions of Xanth was meant to be a demo but (somehow) when I installed it, I got the full game. I think I might have used the installer in a subdirectory instead of the one from the main menu, something like that.

I didn't even realise it was the full game until I finished it! I just thought it was a particularly bulky demo.
 

BareKnuckle

Member
Oct 26, 2017
663
Yes. You may think it's justified, and that's up to you, but it's pretty much the definition of piracy. You're circumventing digital protections to gain access to digital content that you did not pay the creators for, even though they deemed that you should.

It's up to everyone to reconcile this morally, but if we stick to pure letter of the definition it is piracy.

This guy is right, you might think you aren't "hurting" anyone as you're playing single player but the devs prob had their own projections for how many units the MT/DLC would sell. You're potentially taking money out of their pockets.

I don't get what's so hard about it, if you don't like MT just don't buy the games? There is enough pre release coverage these days you will know before you buy it.
 

Jiro

Permanently banned for usage of an alt-account.
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
967
Japan
Nope, I hope there will be cheats/cracks for all single player games that use Micro Transactions from now on.
 

Include

Member
Oct 25, 2017
836
After buying a single player game I will play it the way I want to. If I want to mod it to hell and back it will only affect my own gameplay and no one else's.

The publisher get its money and I get the have fun with my purchase, so no it's not piracy whatsoever.
 

FrankJaeger

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
549
Yes. It is piracy, if you gain access to content locked behind money.

No amount of word salad and "moral righteousness" will change that.

I don't believe there is such a thing as cheating in single player games. Who are you cheating?
Game design.

Unless you think, you should receive everything without effort, defeat bosses on one hit, start game with 9999 gold and so on, but then it begs a question: why are you even "playing" games, when could just watch them on YouTube? With such philosophy it won't make any difference whatsoever.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,838
CT
Technically yes, but if its only for a single player/offline play I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Using hacks to gain advantages for the online multiplayer component in p2w games is not just piracy but cheating and should be punished as such.
 

Darkmark1987

One Winged Slayer Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 26, 2017
330
Don't think it's piracy,it more about playing the product how u want to, so u can enjoy it.


I admit I use cheats in game due to my limited play time. I just don't have time to grind in games, so games like assassins creed origins I would use infinite money to spare me the grind of gathering it to buy the outfits. (On ps4 so cant but the amount to buy an outfit is ridiculous with the lack of money in the game so far)

However,I have my own rules. I never cheat to level up, upgrade or buy items I'm clearly not meant to have yet (eg kingdom hearts could unlock ultima weapon quickly with cheats. If I can't grind it, it will be gotten when I reach the final boss and only then.

First playthroughs however will be done without cheats where possible unless there's riduculois amounts of grinding.

However is never ok to cheat online or multi player. Only villains do that.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Yes you should be arrested and go to jail for it.

Bethesda now charge for mods as well. In a few years anyone creating free mods that do the same thing as what Bethesda charge for should also be arrested and go to jail.

Piracy is criminal. Dangerous people using SP cheats shouldn't be free to roam around and radicalize others.
 

Ascheroth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,514
Game design.

Unless you think, you should receive everything without effort, defeat bosses on one hit, start game with 9999 gold and so on, but then it begs a question: why are you even "playing" games, when could just watch them on YouTube? With such philosophy it won't make any difference whatsoever.
Game design can be bad.
Easiest recent example for me: in Trails of Cold Steel you can spend time with other characters at specific points in the story to see events. Every time you do that it costs a 'bonding point' and you don't get enough to view all events on a first playthrough.
Giving yourself infinite bonding points right from the get-go with CheatEngine or a NewGame+ save is the recommended way to play it.
(Game is still great with that restriction, but it's even better without it).
 

Max Payne

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
500
As someone who grew up having tons of fun playing with cheats and trainers, after beating the actualy story, I just can't accept that as piracy. They day it becomes officialy illegal to use cheats/trainers in SP games, is the day I won't buy a single game anymore.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
Yes. You may think it's justified, and that's up to you, but it's pretty much the definition of piracy. You're circumventing digital protections to gain access to digital content that you did not pay the creators for, even though they deemed that you should.

It's up to everyone to reconcile this morally, but if we stick to pure letter of the definition it is piracy.


Please, don't armchair-lawyer this question. Has any court (let alone any publisher) ever actually claimed something like this was piracy? We should work from precedent situations, not pure conjecture.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,072
Austin, TX
With all the rage that is micro-transactions and loot boxes these days, do you think it's a form of piracy to use something like Cheat Engine to obtain in-game currency when the option to purchase more with micro transactions exist?

For multiplayer, obviously this is wrong. But what about for single player?

If you look at Tales of Zestiria's Steam page you'll see that there's an "Adventure Items" DLC pack that's basically just glorified cheat codes. Why can't we just mod the game ourselves and create an even more optimal experience?

Again, this is for single player stuff only. Creating an unfair advantage against computer players is one thing but an unfair advantage against human players is another.
I think the answer is technically yes. The creator of the game wished to be paid for these things, but the user is defying their wishes and taking it without paying.
However, I don't think it's necessarily a wrong thing to do in this instance, since the user owns (and presumably paid for) the software on their personal property and can do with its content as they please
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,719
This guy is right, you might think you aren't "hurting" anyone as you're playing single player but the devs prob had their own projections for how many units the MT/DLC would sell. You're potentially taking money out of their pockets.

I don't get what's so hard about it, if you don't like MT just don't buy the games? There is enough pre release coverage these days you will know before you buy it.
That's a bit of a leap of logic. What if you had no intention of ever paying for any microtransactions? It's just a choice between having a better experience and having a worse experience.

That's the same kind of false logic that says every pirated copy of a game is a lost sale.

Game design.

Unless you think, you should receive everything without effort, defeat bosses on one hit, start game with 9999 gold and so on, but then it begs a question: why are you even "playing" games, when could just watch them on YouTube? With such philosophy it won't make any difference whatsoever.

So would buying the microtransactions have the same negative impact on game design?
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
People need to distinguish between breaking a EULA and piracy. The latter is illegal, the former is basically breach of contract and is also not really enforceable depending on local laws.

Now, if you circumvent encryption in US you could potentially be breaking DMCA (same as people who dump their DVDs or Blu-Rays to watch on PC or tablet).

All the above said, fuck all that anti consumer shit and he horse it rode on. People should be free to do whatever the hell they want in their SP games and greedy devs building in that shit into SP can bite it. This used to be called cheat codes on consoles and PC games had built-in consoles for cheats and had long tradition of using modifying games.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,962
After some consideration I'd say that the answer depends on what you get as a result of such "cheat".
If it's some content which you wouldn't be able to get otherwise without paying for it then yeah, it's kinda "piracy".
If it's some content which you would still be able to get but only after sinking lots and lots of hours into the game - then no, it's not piracy and is totally ok.
 

BareKnuckle

Member
Oct 26, 2017
663
That's a bit of a leap of logic. What if you had no intention of ever paying for any microtransactions? It's just a choice between having a better experience and having a worse experience.

That's the same kind of false logic that says every pirated copy of a game is a lost sale.

If you were never gonna buy the MT anyway why would you circumvent them? Surely you either want them or you don't. If you want them, you pay for them or you pirate them.
 

Tetsujin

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,627
Germany
I think the answer is technically yes. The creator of the game wished to be paid for these things, but the user is defying their wishes and taking it without paying.

Just because they *want* to be paid for something doesn't mean that an alternative is automatically piracy.
If I buy some kind of device and the company sells peripherals for it, is it piracy just because I decide to create one myself with spare materials so I don't have to pay for the official product? Or if I use a third-party product instead?

Similarly, if a game lets you grind for certain materials or in-game currency and the publisher offers you to just buy an unlock key for that to circumvent grinding, is it piracy if I just use my own or someone elses? I'm not an expert obviously but I would guess these mods would have to specifically use code that is the publishers' intellectual property to count as piracy. So if it's a cloned official download key or something like that, I'd say it's piracy. If it's legitimately third-party code? I don't think so.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,492
Mount Airy, MD
Nope. I have no duty to change how I interact with my games simply because they offer something in their DLC/micro/etc.

I've been modding/cheating in PC games since before I can remember, and someone offering to sell me some extra bullshit doesn't suddenly make that "wrong".
 

user__

Member
Oct 25, 2017
570
I think paid games that have f2p style paywalls on don't deserve to be bought, but to respond the question I wouldn't consider it piracy, but just a mod that fixes an obvious flaw in the game. If the microtransaction is to access portions of the game that can be obtained without obvious intentionally added grind, I would consider it more like a cheat than piracy anyway.
That said I almost never used mods in my pc games, so I'm speaking hypothetically.