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Greenpaint

Greenpaint

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,924
Didn't see this posted yet

www.reuters.com

Saudi Arabia puts Israel deal on ice amid war, engages with Iran, sources say

Saudi Arabia is putting U.S.-backed plans to normalise ties with Israel on ice, two sources familiar with Riyadh's thinking said, signalling a rapid rethinking of its foreign policy priorities as war escalates between Israel and Palestinian group Hamas.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Saudi Arabia puts Israel deal on ice amid war, engages with Iran, sources say


RIYADH, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia is putting U.S.-backed plans to normalise ties with Israel on ice, two sources familiar with Riyadh's thinking said, signalling a rapid rethinking of its foreign policy priorities as war escalates between Israel and Palestinian group Hamas.
....
The first source familiar with Riyadh's thinking said talks could not be continued for now and the issue of Israeli concessions for the Palestinians would need to be a bigger priority when discussions resumed - a comment that indicates Riyadh has not abandoned the idea.
...
The first source familiar with Saudi thinking said Gulf states, including those with Israeli ties, were worried Iran could be drawn into a conflict that would affect them.
...
Alex Vatanka, director of the Iran Program at the Middle East Institute in Washington, said the last week showed how the Saudi and Iranian visions for the region diverged.

"The Saudis are still convinced the region, and Saudi Arabia itself, needs to shift toward regional cooperation and economic development. Iran seems to think the priority is to take the fight to the Israelis first," he said.
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Apparently the talks are on pause but not permanently cancelled and Saudi Arabia still intends to pursue cooperation with Israel in future.
 

Deleted member 16876

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
jelly said:
Hey Mr Terriost Hamas men, go away we don't like you, we are in danger. No, okay then.

What does he expect people to do when Hamas hold the levers and are terriost scumbags.

I mean ideally, this mess will make people lose it and maybe turn on them but they are still the terrorists with the guns and supplies holding the place while Israel dropping bombs and storming through.

A rock and hard place doesn't quite cover it for Palestinians.

Israel need to offer the biggest of olive branches to separate the two but they aren't.
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What kind of logic is this shit...

People being bombed are now going to say "hey, you know what fuck hamas" when their murderers are calling them animals and putting them through collective punishment....

The entire reason Hamas exists is Israel doing the disgusting shit they do.

Some of the posts in here reek of "experts" needing to say something and most of it is stupid shit that makes no sense.
 
maabus1999

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,170
Greenpaint said:
Didn't see this posted yet

www.reuters.com

Saudi Arabia puts Israel deal on ice amid war, engages with Iran, sources say

Saudi Arabia is putting U.S.-backed plans to normalise ties with Israel on ice, two sources familiar with Riyadh's thinking said, signalling a rapid rethinking of its foreign policy priorities as war escalates between Israel and Palestinian group Hamas.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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This was one of Hamas' strategic aims for this attack and looks like it worked (derail the normalization talks with Israel). That said, I don't think we are going to see a true normalization between SA and Iran, just maybe a cooling of tensions.
 

Deleted member 13330

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Zemst said:
Just got this ad. I know people only notice things like this when it comes to their side but for a country launching white phosphorus as retaliation they're pretty much doing everything the say the enemy is doing too.

0-FD463-E3-B51-C-4947-AFE9-34124-FC6-E592.jpg
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The WP accusation for this conflict is unproven. There are so many horrible things Israel is doing right now we can stick to the confirmed stuff to make our points.
 
Psittacus

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,972
LudicrousSpeed said:
It's worth noting, this rationale is precisely Osama Bin Laden's publicly stated reason for why 9/11 was not an attack on innocent civilians.
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It's also worth noting that this sort of full-throated support for Israeli war crimes was one of the stated motives for 9/11

Me Again said:
I think it's both incredibly hard and pointless to try to analyze the comments of someone who just went through that level of trauma, or find them "really gross" when all he's saying is he's fucking terrified of the people who just tried to kill him and that's of course influencing his thought process. Some people in this very thread (rightfully) criticizing Israel over these events would feel differently, at least temporarily, if they had experienced this horror themselves, just like how others would feel differently about the situation in Gaza if they actually had to live there.
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I mean you could say that their whole society is going through a similar trauma response, but it's getting thousands of people killed. At some point the international community has to click its fingers in front of their collective face and tell them to snap the fuck out of it instead of patting them on the back and telling them "that must have been so scary, you deserve to level a hospital, it'll make you feel better"
 
StrangeRoboMemory

StrangeRoboMemory

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,807
Toronto, ON
Me Again said:
I think it's both incredibly hard and pointless to try to analyze the comments of someone who just went through that level of trauma, or find them "really gross" when all he's saying is he's fucking terrified of the people who just tried to kill him and that's of course influencing his thought process. Some people in this very thread (rightfully) criticizing Israel over these events would feel differently, at least temporarily, if they had experienced this horror themselves, just like how others would feel differently about the situation in Gaza if they actually had to live there.
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Good post.
 
theDidact

theDidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,661
Zemst said:
Just got this ad. I know people only notice things like this when it comes to their side but for a country launching white phosphorus as retaliation they're pretty much doing everything the say the enemy is doing too.

0-FD463-E3-B51-C-4947-AFE9-34124-FC6-E592.jpg
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Last I checked, use of white phosphorus was misinformation using footage of fireworks?
 

Deleted member 13330

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Psittacus said:
I mean you could say that their whole society is going through a similar trauma response, but it's getting thousands of people killed. At some point the international community has to click its fingers in front of their collective face and tell them to snap the fuck out of it instead of patting them on the back and telling them "that must have been so scary, you deserve to level a hospital, it'll make you feel better"
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Except I wasn't saying that, I was saying this one man's comments are obviously influenced by the fact that a terrorist organization just tried to kill him and did kill hundreds of people around him.

This post is so callus as to be victim blaming. This man has every right to feel what he understandably feels and to talk about it. "When are we going to stop coddling these trauma victims?" is not a post I expected here.
 
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Tygre

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,224
Chesire, UK
The displacement of people in, and the imminent ethnic cleansing of, Gaza is a stain on our collective humanity.

And the US State Department is determined to see it happen:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

Leaked Emails Warn U.S. Diplomats Against Calling For Israeli ‘De-Escalation’ In Gaza

As Israel escalates its offensive, U.S. diplomats are being discouraged from publicly using three phrases that would urge calm.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

As Israel escalates its attacks on Gaza, the State Department is discouraging diplomats working on Middle East issues from making public statements suggesting the U.S. wants to see less violence, according to internal emails viewed by HuffPost.

In messages circulated on Friday, State Department staff wrote that high-level officials do not want press materials to include three specific phrases: "de-escalation/ceasefire," "end to violence/bloodshed" and "restoring calm."
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"Never again" is a truly hollow slogan.
 
maabus1999

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,170

Deleted member 59

Guest
Buckle said:
What a bunch of fucking psychos.

"Stay! We're roasting babies. It'll be great. Come onnnn."
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At least they're being honest about the reality that if Palestinians stay in Gaza, Israel will have no second thoughts about killing them because "they gave them a warning".
 
Astal

Astal

Member
Aug 15, 2022
120
theDidact said:
Last I checked, use of white phosphorus was misinformation using footage of fireworks?
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Human Rights Watch has verified video from Gaza that shows white phosphorous being used.

www.hrw.org

Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon

Israel’s use of white phosphorus in military operations in Gaza and Lebanon puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injuries, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing a question and answer document on white phosphorus.
www.hrw.org www.hrw.org
 
Greenpaint

Greenpaint

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,924
maabus1999 said:
This was one of Hamas' strategic aims for this attack and looks like it worked (derail the normalization talks with Israel). That said, I don't think we are going to see a true normalization between SA and Iran, just maybe a cooling of tensions.
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Maybe, but the impression I got from the article was that Saudi-Israel deal is delayed but still only a matter of time. Saudis just want to do it in a "politically correct" way.

There is so much conflicting information going around about this conflict that I'm inclined to believe the simplest explanation. Which would be that fighting against Israel IS the goal of Hamas and we shouldn't construct too many complex masterplans and schemes beyond that.

But I'm not an expert on the topic, a couple of weeks ago I still thought that the Israel/Palestine status quo would be here for years to come.
 
TheDestructiveSquirrel

TheDestructiveSquirrel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,305
If Hamas was training for this attack for 2 years, (who knows if that's true) I doubt it was directly aimed at disrupting the Saudi-Israel talks since those didn't exist until recently.

Launching the attack when they did seems more connected to 50 years since the Yom Kippur War.
 
maabus1999

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,170
Astal said:
Human Rights Watch has verified video from Gaza that shows white phosphorous being used.

www.hrw.org

Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon

Israel’s use of white phosphorus in military operations in Gaza and Lebanon puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injuries, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing a question and answer document on white phosphorus.
www.hrw.org www.hrw.org
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As I posted in 4038, referenced by a Reuters link, the headlines really get misleading here on purpose by HWC and others. HWC even admitted these are not incendiaries (which is the banned weapon over civilian areas) in their comments to Reuters.

There is enough terrible stuff going on to dirty the waters with things that are purposefully inflammatory but also misleading by these groups, which does not help the Gazans at all.

Greenpaint said:
Maybe, but the impression I got from the article was that Saudi-Israel deal is delayed but still only a matter of time. Saudis just want to do it in a "politically correct" way.

There is so much conflicting information going around about this conflict that I'm inclined to believe the simplest explanation. Which would be that fighting against Israel IS the goal of Hamas and we shouldn't construct too many complex masterplans and schemes beyond that.

But I'm not an expert on the topic, a couple of weeks ago I still thought that the Israel/Palestine status quo would be here for years to come.
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Well a Saudi deal directly impacts them fighting Israel so those goals are related. Not saying it was a primary goal but it makes complete sense it was a goal on how to derail talks at some point in the talks either within Hamas or with the other proxies.

But I also agree Saudi Arabia will continue to try and get closer to Israel for economic reasons. You can tell that even the Middle Eastern governments are tired of this conflict (definitely less support than you saw 50 years ago).
 

Deleted member 13330

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Astal said:
Human Rights Watch has verified video from Gaza that shows white phosphorous being used.

www.hrw.org

Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon

Israel’s use of white phosphorus in military operations in Gaza and Lebanon puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injuries, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing a question and answer document on white phosphorus.
www.hrw.org www.hrw.org
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This isn't an incendiary weapon, this is seemingly using WP for marketing targets (so to make smoke). That's actually perfectly legal internationally.
 
Sordid Plebeian

Sordid Plebeian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,492
spineduke said:
This happened in South Lebanon, it was a news crew and their clearly marked news jeep got directly shelled by the Israelis. He worked with Reuters and there were other crew from Al Jazeera. I will say that the Israelis often murder journalists, and with impunity.
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My bad, nonetheless an important area for him to cover. I at least assumed correctly that it was the IDF who killed him. Hoping this conflict doesn't spread there too.
 
xendless

xendless

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Jan 23, 2019
10,909
Wish I didn't click further into that WarMonitors twitter, sharing propaganda of Hamas fighters appearing "kind" with Israeli children with 0 context about what happened to them or their families before or after
People using it as a "See? Any violence towards children is all Western media fake news"
 
GetDigitized

GetDigitized

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,825
maabus1999 said:
As I posted in 4038, referenced by a Reuters link, the headlines really get misleading here on purpose by HWC and others. HWC even admitted these are not incendiaries (which is the banned weapon over civilian areas) in their comments to Reuters.

There is enough terrible stuff going on to dirty the waters with things that are purposefully inflammatory but also misleading by these groups, which does not help the Gazans at all.
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This is just Israeli apologetics, even if we believe that line(while there's artillery present :https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1712783307996377139?t=Rs9fXFYP67IrTL3XC0xHog&s=19) , white phosphorus still does inhumane levels of damage, let's not pretend that a weapon not being banned somehow makes it OK. The other line is that it was used for marking, which it was, outside of Gaza, in gaza it was sprayed over populated civilian areas.
Plenty of educated responses to this and other attempts at delegitmising hrw on reddit :

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
 
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cameron

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,864
WaPo: Reuters journalist killed in southern Lebanon, agency says

Issam Abdallah, a journalist with the Reuters news agency, was killed Friday while covering fighting in southern Lebanon, the agency said in a statement. At least six other journalists were injured, including two from the Al Jazeera news channel, when the journalists were struck by what Al Jazeera said was Israeli shelling.

"We are deeply saddened to learn that our videographer, Issam Abdallah, has been killed," the Reuters statement read, adding that Abdallah was part of a Reuters crew in southern Lebanon providing live coverage of skirmishes along the border. The statement did not provide details on the precise circumstances of his death. Two other Reuters journalists, Thaer al-Sudani and Maher Nazeh, "sustained injuries and are seeking medical care," the agency said.

Al Jazeera said the journalists had all gathered in one area for safety in Alma el-Chaab, a village in southern Lebanon. All the journalists were wearing blue bullet-resistant vests marked with the word "Press," the channel said. Two of its journalists — Elie Brakhya, a cameraman, and Carmen Joukhadar, a correspondent — were injured, Al Jazeera reported.

Video of the aftermath showed a car on fire and bystanders appearing to help the wounded journalists, including one female journalist lying on the ground near a video camera.​
 
Coyote Starrk

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,622
cameron said:
WaPo: Reuters journalist killed in southern Lebanon, agency says

Issam Abdallah, a journalist with the Reuters news agency, was killed Friday while covering fighting in southern Lebanon, the agency said in a statement. At least six other journalists were injured, including two from the Al Jazeera news channel, when the journalists were struck by what Al Jazeera said was Israeli shelling.

"We are deeply saddened to learn that our videographer, Issam Abdallah, has been killed," the Reuters statement read, adding that Abdallah was part of a Reuters crew in southern Lebanon providing live coverage of skirmishes along the border. The statement did not provide details on the precise circumstances of his death. Two other Reuters journalists, Thaer al-Sudani and Maher Nazeh, "sustained injuries and are seeking medical care," the agency said.

Al Jazeera said the journalists had all gathered in one area for safety in Alma el-Chaab, a village in southern Lebanon. All the journalists were wearing blue bullet-resistant vests marked with the word "Press," the channel said. Two of its journalists — Elie Brakhya, a cameraman, and Carmen Joukhadar, a correspondent — were injured, Al Jazeera reported.

Video of the aftermath showed a car on fire and bystanders appearing to help the wounded journalists, including one female journalist lying on the ground near a video camera.​
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So is this confirmation of fighting in Lebanon? Or is this somehow unrelated?
 
maabus1999

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,170
xendless said:
Wish I didn't click further into that WarMonitors twitter, sharing propaganda of Hamas fighters appearing "kind" with Israeli children with 0 context about what happened to them or their families before or after
People using it as a "See? Any violence towards children is all Western media fake news"
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That Twitter account is unfortunately a very well known but problematic account spreading incorrect information in a variety of situations. Reuters has official statements and links out, so hopefully the original poster can link those in its stead.
 
Bizazedo

Bizazedo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,784
xendless said:
Wish I didn't click further into that WarMonitors twitter, sharing propaganda of Hamas fighters appearing "kind" with Israeli children with 0 context about what happened to them or their families before or after
People using it as a "See? Any violence towards children is all Western media fake news"
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There's two different Warmonitors Twitter and that one is a known piece of dung that's been pretty much ignored / softbanned from the Ukraine war thread. I can't remember the good one (not that that one's eligible for this thread either as this one is only official news sites).
 
Foffy

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,400
Do tell me if Huffington Post is a sketchy source by the way, I don't want to add more nonsense in what's already a disinformation soup.

Stunning State Department Memo Warns Diplomats: No Gaza 'De-Escalation' Talk

As Israel escalates its attacks on Gaza, the State Department is discouraging diplomats working on Middle East issues from making public statements suggesting the U.S. wants to see less violence, according to internal emails viewed by HuffPost.

In messages circulated on Friday, State Department staff wrote that high-level officials do not want press materials to include three specific phrases: "de-escalation/ceasefire," "end to violence/bloodshed" and "restoring calm."


"We're going to be careful not to get into armchair quarterbacking the tactics on the ground by the [Israel Defense Forces]," he added. "What I can tell you is we understand what they're trying to do. They're trying to move civilians out of harm's way and giving them fair warning."


U.S. officials have said they expect Israel to abide by the laws of war in its operation against Hamas. But they have avoided discussion of a ceasefire, including as aid groups and some analysts have suggested that may be essential to allow civilians to flee Gaza and vital supplies to enter the area after Israel cut off electricity and water that the strip usually relies on. Earlier this week, Secretary of State Antony Blinken deleted and replaced a post on X in which he mentioned Turkey's calls for a ceasefire.
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fragamemnon

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,958
maabus1999 said:
This was one of Hamas' strategic aims for this attack and looks like it worked (derail the normalization talks with Israel). That said, I don't think we are going to see a true normalization between SA and Iran, just maybe a cooling of tensions.
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The desire by the kingdom for a USA-Saudi defensive pact is really high- that would probably include normalization of relations with Israel for (what I would hope to be pretty obvious) geopolitical reasons. Talks around this have been ongoing and are still (to my understanding) in a formative state and it's super unclear if Congress would be willing to go along.

I really don't think anything short of Israel conducting its own version of the Second Chechen War would cause the KSA to back off the desire for that deal with the USA.
 
maabus1999

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,170
GetDigitized said:
This is just Israeli apologetics, even if we believe that line, white phosphorus still does inhumane levels of damage, let's not pretend that a weapon not being banned somehow makes it OK. The other line is that it was used for marking, which it was, outside of Gaza, in gaza it was sprayed over populated civilian areas.
Plenty of educated responses to this and other attempts at delegitmising hrw on reddit :

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
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There isn't any delegitimizing when HRW said it themselves? That is a shell to create a smokescreen or targeting, most likely the M825, in that picture. The concern here would be the gas making it difficult to breath, but these are again not incendiaries. There have been a dozen posts on this topic, including some folks who used to practice military law who have gone into this. And it isn't just Israel that uses phosphorus based illuminators or smoke shells, so not sure where the apologetics is coming from. But the point being is when folks are claiming the "inhumane" levels of damage incorrectly, that gets passed on later that by the mainstream media that these are not "banned weapons" and just "smokescreens" you will continue to have people think claims from aid groups may be untrustworthy.
 
cameron

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,864
Coyote Starrk said:
So is this confirmation of fighting in Lebanon? Or is this somehow unrelated?
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The Israel Defense Forces reported a false alarm Friday about a supposed infiltration into Hanita, a kibbutz near the Lebanese border. An alert from the Home Front Command "identified" the alleged incursion.​
​
The IDF later said that a search of the area "ruled out an infiltration into the community of Hanita."​


www.reuters.com

Israeli shelling strikes Lebanese army post after infiltration warning

Israeli shelling struck a Lebanese army observation post at the border on Friday, three sources in Lebanon told Reuters, after the Israeli military warned of a suspected armed infiltration that it said it was responding to with artillery fire.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

JERUSALEM, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Israeli shelling struck a Lebanese army observation post at the border on Friday, three sources in Lebanon told Reuters, after the Israeli military warned of a suspected armed infiltration that it said it was responding to with artillery fire.​
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Israel later ruled out that any incursion had occurred and residents of a village near the border, who had been instructed to hole up at home and lock doors and windows, were told they could again go outdoors.​
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The alert was issued in Hanita, 500 metres (yards) from the tense border and opposite Aalma El-Chaeb.​
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Lebanon's Iran-backed, heavily armed Hezbollah group later said it had carried out attacks on a number of border areas as a response to attacks Israel carried out earlier in the day on south Lebanese towns.​
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The military statement said there had been an explosion at the adjacent border fence, which was lightly damaged.​
 
Wodecraft

Wodecraft

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Jan 4, 2023
71
Me Again said:
This isn't an incendiary weapon, this is seemingly using WP for marketing targets (so to make smoke). That's actually perfectly legal internationally.
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Is there any possible military justification in airbursting 155 mm white phosphorus artillery shells over a densely populated civilian area? They're not being used for targeting. What purpose does making smoke serve other than as a pretext to indiscriminately target civilians?
 

Deleted member 13330

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GetDigitized said:
This is just Israeli apologetics, even if we believe that line(while there's artillery present :https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1712783307996377139?t=Rs9fXFYP67IrTL3XC0xHog&s=19) , white phosphorus still does inhumane levels of damage, let's not pretend that a weapon not being banned somehow makes it OK. The other line is that it was used for marking, which it was, outside of Gaza, in gaza it was sprayed over populated civilian areas.
Plenty of educated responses to this and other attempts at delegitmising hrw on reddit :

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
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If it was used for marketing, saying the Israel has used WP in Gaza is about as accurate as saying a country using depleted uranium rounds is attacking with "nuclear weapons."

It's technically true, but implies something completely divorced from reality. HRW says themselves this was not an incendiary attack.

Wodecraft said:
Is there any possible military justification in airbursting 155 mm white phosphorus artillery shells over a densely populated civilian area? They're not being used for targeting. What purpose does making smoke serve other than as a pretext to indiscriminately target civilians?
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My understanding is it was being used for non-lethal gas attacks to clear an area. Which is still of course gross, but it's not melting people alive (if this info is accurate).

This thread should serve as a place for facts. If we can debate whether people were raped or babies were beheaded in the name of accuracy, we should be able to do that for all issues.
 
maabus1999

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,170
Wodecraft said:
Is there any possible military justification in airbursting 155 mm white phosphorus artillery shells over a densely populated civilian area? They're not being used for targeting. What purpose does making smoke serve other than as a pretext to indiscriminately target civilians?
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The gas could be used to flush people out as it would be difficult to breath, which isn't its attended use. However, it could have been targeting because its near the port which has been shelled non-stop by the Israeli navy. I couldn't tell you from that picture alone which scenario happened.
 

DryCreek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,987
PlayALLTheGames said:
Read this article just now:

apnews.com

A music festival survivor fleeing the attack, a pair of Hamas militants and a deadly decision

When Hamas militants swarmed into Israel over the weekend, one of their first targets was the Tribe of Nova music festival.
apnews.com apnews.com

A quote from this guy who survived the massacre at the music festival is really wild to me:



I can't imagine the trauma of going through what he did. It seems though that tons of Israelis convinced themselves the way Palestinians have been living in Gaza this whole time - in absolutely horrendous conditions, basically an open-air prison, with no freedom of movement - has actually been the opposite; totally normal living in normal conditions and Palestinians, instead of appreciating this and just going about their daily lives, decided as a population to encourage Hamas to kill Isralies.

I mean when you're living in an alternate universe like this, it's kind of gross to talk about yourself as having been politically liberal on the Palestinian situation and acting like you just wanted to coexist. Really gross.
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I dont think its fair to judge what an individual thinks when they have been directly the victim of a terrorist attack. That kind of trauma is going to have an effect on your beliefs.
 
GetDigitized

GetDigitized

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,825
maabus1999 said:
There isn't any delegitimizing when HRW said it themselves? That is a shell to create a smokescreen or targeting, most likely the M825, in that picture. The concern here would be the gas making it difficult to breath, but these are again not incendiaries. There have been a dozen posts on this topic, including some folks who used to practice military law who have gone into this. And it isn't just Israel that uses phosphorus based illuminators or smoke shells, so not sure where the apologetics is coming from. But the point being is when folks are claiming the "inhumane" levels of damage incorrectly, that gets passed on later that by the mainstream media that these are not "banned weapons" and just "smokescreens" you will continue to have people think claims from aid groups may be untrustworthy.
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It's trying to paint hrw as being purposely misleading which isn't what they're doing, they point out it wasn't used as an incendiary in the Lebanon strikes. I was referring to it making it difficult to breath, there's elderly people, injured people, babies etc. Packed into tight spaces in gaza. Suffocating civilians even if it doesn't lead to death is inhumane. It doesn't matter if others do it or not, that doesn't justify anything (I also don't know of any uses in densely packed civilian areas by the West). What we do know is Israel has equipment with the incenidaries ready to fire according to amnesty international and that they aren't beyong using it(see: 2009) .

Military experts have also said that other smokescreens are viable and it doesn't make sense to risk using white phosphorus in civilian areas due to the suffocation and health risks.
 
staff post - stop the derail and focus on what matters
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    That's some catch, that catch-22
    General Manager
    Oct 25, 2017
    33,164
    Official Staff Communication
    Listen, there's no value in arguing about whether this counts as white phosphorous or not. By focusing on this, we draw attention away from the fact that innocent people are currently being killed in their homes, or attempting to flee their homes, by artillery fire. The cold hard facts are that these rounds are being aimed at innocent civilians and at journalists attempting to keep the rest of us informed as to what is going on.

    Knock off the distraction and actually focus on what is happening, arguing over tiny details and smaller claims means we spend that much less time focusing on the actual issues here: the indiscriminate shelling of civilians in an major city.

    Anyone continuing the derail is getting banned.
     
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    • Deleted member 13330

    User-requested account closure
    Banned
    Mar 14, 2023
    1,177
    B-Dubs said:
    Official Staff Communication
    Listen, there's no value in arguing about whether this counts as white phosphorous or not. By focusing on this, we draw attention away from the fact that innocent people are currently being killed in their homes, or attempting to flee their homes, by artillery fire. The cold hard facts are that these rounds are being aimed at innocent civilians and at journalists attempting to keep the rest of us informed as to what is going on.

    Knock off the distraction and actually focus on what is happening, arguing over tiny details and smaller claims means we spend that much less time focusing on the actual issues here: the indiscriminate shelling of civilians in an major city.

    Anyone continuing the derail is getting banned.
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    Frankly calling the use of white phosphorus a "tiny detail" is massively underselling the actual issue. It's an incredibly important fact, as it is a shockingly powerful and terrible weapon if used as an incendiary (and DOES have specific international laws written to address its usage), and like I said if babies were actually beheaded or women were just abused and not raped counts as reasonable discussion topics I don't know why this isn't. If WP is being used as a battlefield weapon to melt people, I want to know. We all should want to know.

    If pointing this out gets me banned fine, but I needed to share that either way.
     
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