The evidence points to a misfire by Islamic Jihad, as IDF as talking before. It is a shame that a lot of journalist believe Hamas PR as a gospel and this has ignited more the middle east.
Maybe Hamas has something that sounds similar, so an expert would say they're not sure. I only know that JDAMs do sound like that, but that doesn't mean nothing else sounds like that. That's why I asked a question.
Even more reason to just wait and see what actually happened and not rush to play defense for either terrorist group.
It was very weird yesterday seeing this thread completely devolve. The IDF is bad and has shown that to be true for decades. Hamas is a week removed from a rocket attack on a music festival so I'm not sure why we are giving either side the benefit of the doubt.
As was earlier pointed out, Israel already bombed that hospital and didn't level it.
Why is it so crazy to believe that they may have done the same again?
What journalists are you talking about? Most of the news sites reported that "… according to Hamas" and then posted IDF tells they didn't do it.
Because we now have tons of visual evidence that points in a different direction?
Hamas Health Ministry now claims death toll is 471
View: https://twitter.com/afp/status/1714618553314279813
View: https://twitter.com/afp/status/1714618553314279813
Na it's OK dude, didn't you know? It's all good, only a few cars damaged in the car park, IDF are all good again.
Or so it would seem reading some of the responses here. The dead don't matter anymore.
The dead don't matter anymore? The validity of whether this occurred may very well determine the entire international response to this war and if it expands and you and others flippantly act like it doesn't matter? It could very well determine whether more people die. So it's in fact VERY important if the initial claims by those in Gaza were correct or a dire distortion of the truth! You can't just hand wave it as "well the IDF has done plenty of other war crimes." Which is very true, but this is a potential flashpoint and that matters. Big time.
But do you think that when they do, and if it turns out they were wrong, they will rectify their statement?
I'm responding specifically to the recording of the supposed terrorists who fired the rockets.
The fact the IDF released it makes it meaningless to me, and proves nothing.
Anyway, I'm gonna leave it there for this thread, seeing some people play whatbaoutism with regards to an ongoing genocide, and those same people continually conflating Hamas with all Palestinians, makes me lose all hope in humanity to be honest.
Ok-that old gem, basic media literacy
What do you think people are going to get from watching this report:
The title does not say X claims, simply X denies
Hundreds dead is spoken as fact, not according to X hundreds are dead
"chaos at the scene, much of the building HAS been destroyed"
"the explosion destroyed Al-Ahli hospital" with video of an explosion
Video of injured people they say are from the site, being transported
Video of Israeli official denying the strike
Video from a UN official in Gaza, a source in the area who is not a Palestinian official about the incident
Video of mass protests
Again talking about "the hundreds killed, the thousands injured"
Talking about Israel's denial and other countries placing blame on them
Talking about the scale of the deaths inflaming tensions in the middle east and the consequences
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgMa34Kh9o
We can not jump to conclusions in times of war. Nothing is ever clear initially. My heart breaks for all the innocents that have died and will continue to die during this war.
Edit: It appears now that a failed rocket launch from Islamic Jihad resulted in the deaths.
The misinformation surrounding this was then used by Hamas/other terrorist groups to further complicate/muddy plans for peace negotiations. This will only further hurt innocent civilians caught in this war.
Hopefully the Biden administration can continue to work with the international community to get plans back in place for the protection of civilians.
Edit: It appears now that a failed rocket launch from Islamic Jihad resulted in the deaths.
The misinformation surrounding this was then used by Hamas/other terrorist groups to further complicate/muddy plans for peace negotiations. This will only further hurt innocent civilians caught in this war.
Hopefully the Biden administration can continue to work with the international community to get plans back in place for the protection of civilians.
Last edited:
The Gaza Health Ministry, which is overseen by the enclave's Hamas rulers, said on Wednesday afternoon that 471 people were killed in the explosion by the Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza City on Tuesday night. Another 28 were in critical condition, ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qidra said in a statement published on the body's Facebook page, and another 314 were injured. The death toll could not be independently verified, and the cause of the blast remained unclear.
Charred cars lining a parking lot. A courtyard littered with bloodied blankets and backpacks. Tattered clothing where dozens of bodies had lain.
The devastating impact of an explosion at the Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza City on Tuesday became clearer on Wednesday through videos that witnesses posted to social media. The Health Ministry in Gaza said hundreds of people were killed. Emergency workers were collecting bodies and remains in an effort to identify the dead.
"There are still lots of bodies they haven't yet collected," said Amir Ahmed, a paramedic with the Palestinian Red Crescent in Gaza City. "There are too many bodies." He said all the victims would be buried in a mass grave at a funeral later on Wednesday.
"There is a big possibility that they will just put a number" on the body bags without any names, Mr. Ahmed added, "because many are in pieces."
Palestinian officials blamed the carnage on an Israeli airstrike, an assertion that was disputed by the Israel Defense Forces, which said it was caused by an errant rocket fired by an armed Palestinian faction in Gaza. Neither side's account could be independently verified immediately, and the cause of the blast and the precise death toll remained unclear.
Many of those killed at the hospital, which is run by the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem, were women and children, said Dr. Ashraf al-Qudra, a spokesman for the Health Ministry in Gaza. He said doctors in another hospital in Gaza City were now performing surgery on patients on the floor or in corridors, often without anesthetic.
"The sudden increase of hundreds of victims with complex injuries far exceeded the capabilities of medical crews and ambulances," he said in a statement.
Many of the wounded could die because of a severe shortage of medical supplies, water and electricity. Israel has imposed a complete siege of Gaza since last week, cutting off food, water, electricity and fuel.
You say this but then you jump to conclusion below in the same post:
I say that only AFTER the events of the last day and additional information and analysis. I should maybe leave the "definitely" out and just say appears. BUT there is a big difference between immediately declaring Israel was responsible based on Hamas claiming that to be the case, and waiting a day until the fog was lifted.
In the moment, no one knew what caused it, we only knew that innocent life was lost and that still remains the worst part of this and we should focus on the lives lost and continue to find ways to peace.
Now we have more evidence pointing towards it being the result of a failed rocket. But you are correct it is not definitive yet, so I will edit my post to reflect that.
Has one or more reliable sources for this been posted in this thread yet? I haven't seen any but maybe I have missed it.
It's been eye opening to see how far people will go to defend their 'side'.
Share with us some of this evidence you talk about.
Mossad zionist lies straight from the settlers' playbook don't count, not even when they're corroborated by its colonialist allies.
If this was not an IDF strike... It's going to be real difficult to believe anything coming out of the live reporting from ANY news media outlet.
Memo on Thread Titles
As a heads up, we'll be having a more generalized thread title. News coming are changing rapidly and it feels that specifics can be accurate at one point and misleading at other (not to mention, the limits of a title itself).
If something feels that it should be highlighted, remember that you can ask for it to be threadmarked too.
If something feels that it should be highlighted, remember that you can ask for it to be threadmarked too.
Wouldn't have been as much of an issue if the news organizations and outlets in Gaza weren't directly target as they have been over the years.
Now we're left with hundreds killed trying to seek help and shelter at a hospital but the focus is who did or didn't jump to conclusions.
User Banned (2 Weeks)/Threadbanned: Abuse of report system, previous history of the same, ignoring the staff post
As suggested by the mod team, I've reported posts with offensive or insulting content. Not a single report has been resolved.
At least we got an appropriate thread title. It was about time.
At least we got an appropriate thread title. It was about time.
I didn't say anything before because of all the back and forth, but I'm pretty sure that video was edited to add the sound effect. The most obvious indicator is the lack of any delay between the explosion and the sound, although the person filming appears to be some distance away from the hospital. We're used to it because of Hollywood, but that's not how sound works in the real world.
Truth still matters. Notwithstanding all of their other war crimes, whether Israel did or did not in fact launch an air strike on a hospital could mean the difference in whether this escalates into a broader regional war.
I hope a lesson has been learned about updating thread titles whilst we're in the fog of war.
It does matter and that truth is bearing itself out now that the sun has come up and information can be properly assessed. Brow beating each other over who did or didn't jump to conclusions in a conflict with a significant fog of war and journalism constantly under threat by both threat of death and lack of infrastructure to report is unfortunate and needless.
It's better in one sense that it appears to have not been a targeted Israeli strike. Doesn't change that a significant amount of innocents seeking help and refuge are dead. It's still a tragedy. The tragedy should be the overall focus imo and highlight the chaos that results from suppressing independent reporting in Gaza and civilians ability to connect outside with the lack of power.
It's unsatisfying, but we'll likely never know for certain. Each side will insist on their version of events and there's really no way to do a neutral investigation at this point.
It doesn't really change anything about the broader conflict, other than underscore how dangerous it is for civilians in Gaza.
It doesn't really change anything about the broader conflict, other than underscore how dangerous it is for civilians in Gaza.
"We'll never know for certain" is incorrect because the fundamental claim that a hospital was leveled has been demonstrably disproven. Now will we ever know what kind of explosive hit the parking lot? Maybe not.
Hamas controlled health ministry is a crazy thing to say. It's the government. It's like saying American controlled department of health
Some word on advice on claims that any side makes, be it Hamas or the IDF, alongside social media videos popping up, which have born true to anyone following the Russian-Ukraine conflict:
1.) If something traumatic happens in conflict, the first 24 hours are almost always going to have incorrect information. 100% of the time.
2.) Mass casualty numbers are actually very hard to get accurate numbers on, because it can take days to clear rubble or identify bodies correctly.
3.) Social media is full of "experts", with 99% of them having no clue, and it takes time to find more credible ones but even then they can sometimes make mistakes. They are human. Same goes with reporters, they can make mistakes as well.
4.) Accidents from aerial weaponry do happen commonly in conflict and unintentional injuries are going to happen tragically, be it via malfunction or interceptions. This was just one of the most extreme cases documented. And when these accidents happen, fingers are always pointed in the beginning by both sides (see # 1).
1.) If something traumatic happens in conflict, the first 24 hours are almost always going to have incorrect information. 100% of the time.
2.) Mass casualty numbers are actually very hard to get accurate numbers on, because it can take days to clear rubble or identify bodies correctly.
3.) Social media is full of "experts", with 99% of them having no clue, and it takes time to find more credible ones but even then they can sometimes make mistakes. They are human. Same goes with reporters, they can make mistakes as well.
4.) Accidents from aerial weaponry do happen commonly in conflict and unintentional injuries are going to happen tragically, be it via malfunction or interceptions. This was just one of the most extreme cases documented. And when these accidents happen, fingers are always pointed in the beginning by both sides (see # 1).
I'm confused, everyone takes what the Ministry of Health says about casualties in Gaza at face value last week, but the second there's any real blowback, the narrative immediately shifts to it's actually Hamas? You're a terrorist sympathizer for believing them in the first place?
I guess the 3000+ dead since last week is complete bullshit as well? Fucking hell this discourse is utterly exhausting.
I guess the 3000+ dead since last week is complete bullshit as well? Fucking hell this discourse is utterly exhausting.
Honestly, after lurking in the thread, specially last night - I am kinda disappointed in some peeps here, who are jumping to conclusions instead of waiting for facts/evidence/pictures etc. yeah, it's bad and it's sucks - but oh boy - people accusing each party left and right and believing everything they see as a fact. People should reread thru the last pages (starting last night) in this thread.
So if that's accurate, they're admitting both that they hit the hospital and that they knowingly fire rockets from the hospital. Fuck them.
He also saw beheaded babies and then his staff had to clarify that he actually didn't.
The US government has a horse in this race and any information coming out of it should be treated the same way we would treat IDF or Hamas claims. We have to wait for a reputable, independent 3rd party analysis, if it ever comes, which isn't a guarantee, unfortunately.
The narrative was always accelerated, when the most obvious response should have been, at the very least, let's wait until daylight and even an ad hoc damage assessment. The narrative ping-ponged back and forth so much that it was difficult to follow. There is nothing to be gained by rushing to make an unnecessary, spur of the moment conclusion.
They?
It's supposed to Hamas talking about PIJ rockets.
Fuck them both.
I think this specific incident is a valid case for specification.
Referring to any Hamas source generically as "the Palestinian government" or something like that would very much exacerbate the conflation of Palestinian citizens with Hamas as a group--even if using terms like "Palestinian health ministry" is technically accurate.