leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,163
No spoilers, gameplay only topic.

So I'm 20 hours into TLOU 2 on survivor and the aspect of it that has surprised me most is how enjoyable the actual gameplay is. Gameplay has always been a contentious topic for TLOU. The first game always had complaints of having "terrible" gameplay and one of the major reasons was lot of people played it on normal which is the default setting. I've always been of the opinion that survivor was the best way to play for a multitude of reasons. Tonally it makes more sense in the first place because it actually makes you explore and scavenge for ammo/supplies. On normal you get way too much of everything so you end up decked out like you're a one man army in every fight. On survivor with limited ammo the whole overall experience is more tense/visceral because every bullet counts and you really have to think about a stealth approach while maximising your resources. It's one of those games where difficulty almost dictates the genre the game is.

With TLOU 2 Naughty Dog has doubled down on the accessibility by adding a bunch of difficulty sliders for individual elements that lets you customise exactly. Listening mode isn't even disabled on survivor this time around either. This is obviously a good thing because it lets you customise exactly how you want to play and gives more people the chance to finish the game. I'm already planning on doing a second run with the ammo slider turned up so I can run around blasting fools left right and centre without worrying. Even so I can't help but think playing on normal or even hard minimizes a lot of the improvements in gameplay mechanics and level design. Along with the issues that it introduced in the first game it also dumbs down the AI (which received a major improvement IMO), prone isn't needed much (a game changing addition to stealth) and it doesn't encourage you to take advantage of the level design with alternate approaches. Again it almost turns the game into a third person shooter which isn't terrible thanks to how good the gun feedback and hit reactions are but it's not what makes the overall gameplay great to me. You just don't have feel the same intensity or constant sense of dread when you you have almost endless supplies and less fear of dying. Exploration isn't required either but I suppose that could be seen as a good thing for people who just want to move to the story beats as quickly as possible.

I'm aware that a AAA story driven franchise designed for the masses would likely never have a default mode as hard as survivor as opposed to something Dark Souls where the mechanics/difficulty is the main appeal. The accessibility and plethora of options on offer was absolutely the right decision but it's a shame that a lot of people will just play the game once on the default difficulty and then never realise how much depth and variety there is to the actual gameplay. Would the gameplay resonate more critically in an alternate world where survivor is the only difficulty and you had to deal with it?
 
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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,969
Eh. This is a game about experiencing a story. The story should be as accessible as it needs to be for a person to get through it.

Putting up a bunch of artificial roadblocks just for the sake of difficulty doesn't make sense. This isn't a Souls game where the difficulty is the point, it's a narrative game.
 

Video Kojima

Banned
Apr 5, 2020
2,541
No thanks. I play all my games on very easy the first time. I don't have the time for hard difficulties like survivor. I'm on moderate + on my second playthrough.
 

ArkkAngel007

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,102
Very few, if any, are knocking it for the gameplay mechanics, so this line of thought isn't really tracking. Most of it is subjective, for better or worse, reception of the storyline and pacing.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,523
why is acclaim more important than more people playing the game?

I don't think that's what OP is saying. Rather, they understand that accessibility is important, but feel that survivor being the only mode would highlight the strengths of the gameplay and maybe lead to even higher scores. It's an interesting point. Conversely though, couldn't you argue that the game should be critically acclaimed due to the accessibility?

Not really one to read reviews, personally, but did any of the major publications call this out?
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,174
A game's accessibility changing how it plays isn't an accessibility issue, it's a design issue. If a game is made to feel and perform a certain way, accessibility designed to ignore mechanics is not good accessibility, accessibility is supposed to be there to help people get the same experience that everyone else who doesn't need accessibility options does.
 

gdt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,656
Eh. This is a game about experiencing a story. The story should be as accessible as it needs to be for a person to get through it.

Putting up a bunch of artificial roadblocks just for the sake of difficulty doesn't make sense. This isn't a Souls game where the difficulty is the point, it's a narrative game.

You are pigeonholding it too much.

The desperation and anxiety you feel in the middle of a tough encounter is absolutely part of the narrative and atmosphere imo.

Edit: not that I agree with the OP completely, though I do feel the game is better at higher difficulty for the reasons stated.
 

ElephantShell

10,000,000
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,080
Definitely feel like they should have renamed hard to normal, survivor to hard, normal to easy etc.

I'm playing it on hard and it feels pretty well balanced to me. I feel like some people will pick normal to start and find it too easy.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
France
It wouldn't get more acclaim simply because a huge chunk of people literally wouldn't be able to play it.

Accessibility also means these people are able to get a tense experience. Maybe they can't explore every nook and cranny to have a massive amount of supplies, maybe they use what they have differently. For most people puttin the game on easy doesn't amount to a walk in the park at all.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,969
You are pigeonholding it too much.

The desperation and anxiety you feel in the middle of a tough encounter is absolutely part of the narrative and atmosphere imo.

Right, but the whole point is to GET THROUGH the encounter. Guiding the player to a point where they feel tension but giving them enough power to get through said encounter is half the point of a game like this.

It's not Dark Souls and it shouldn't try to be.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,688
It's funny. I was thinking of making a thread about asking how many people have turned the difficulty way down because any hard interruptions to the story like deaths kind of put a damper on it. Because that's exactly what I was going to try to do today lol.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,034
Gameplay has always been a contentious topic for TLOU. The first game always had complaints of having "terrible" gameplay and one of the major reasons was lot of people played it on normal which is the default setting.
This is purely a forum nerd phenomenon and doesn't reflect the views of the overwhelming majority of people who played and loved TLoU.
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,668
I feel like this is like suggesting the kingdom hearts series should only have a critical mode, and while I love critical mode, it doesn't make sense to alienate such a large portion of people.

Personally, I also liked last of us 2 on moderate a lot.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
I agree, but accessibility is always right.

On Survivor the game just fucking shines. The feeling of really being these characters hits home a million times harder. Every inch of every level becomes crucial. And it's still totally fair.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
I agree survival is the best experience for the game. But most people don't think much of the depth these mechanics nor care to experience them. They just want to experience a story and feel badass going through it. Survival being forced as the intended way to play would only frustrate people and the game would probably be less well received. Hardcore players like you and I ain't the standard.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,450
If anything the plethora of Accessibility Options should serve to give TLOU2 more acclaim by inviting more players to the party, but that's just me.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
We really need a better term for easy to play games than accessibility.

I haven't played the game but I totally get where you're coming from OP. Plenty of games out there where playing on an easier difficulty basically cuts out a lot of the mechanical fun.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,333
That 95 could have been a slightly higher 95, you guys!

Honestly I'm playing on a higher difficulty and the bland combat is just filler between the real meat that is the engaging narrative and complex characters.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
31,741
Chicago
I get what you're saying but uh...
bdd.jpg
 

toastyToast

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,389
While I did finish the first game on Grounded, I don't feel like there's an overabundance of supplies playing TLoU2 on Hard.

Honestly it's pretty conspicuous that I can fight what's essentially a paramilitary group and freaking no one has ammo except 1 of them with 3 9mm bullets.

Make the monsters fuck me up in 1 hit and empty all the drawers but that is some bullshit.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,579
why stop at survivor and why not say they should have created grounded for 2 and made that the only option
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,543
It's a profoundly better experience on harder difficulties for sure, just like the first game. Resource scarcity encourages, and further rewards exploration, while enhancing the themes of survival in a world gone-to-shit. It also really highlights how open to creativity, strategy, and frantic improvisation combat encounters are – things that really doesn't come across on normal or easier difficulty since you can all but Gears of War your way through the game without thinking.

Beyond that, like every other horror game, it benefits greatly from the increased tension, anxiety, and stakes the threat of failure/death provide.
 
Oct 3, 2019
837
YES. I've been playing on survivor without using listen mode and it's a blast, and of course infuriating at times. I'm also baffled when people say TLOU has bad gameplay, like what? The combat is awesome, especially on higher difficulties when it really feels like you're fighting through a life or death situation, having to make use of every last bit of resources you can find. To me it's a lot more "survival horror" than most actual survivor horror games.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
15,342
Would the gameplay resonate more critically in an alternate world where survivor is the only difficulty and you had to deal with it?

Doubtful. I'm glad that people get MORE enjoyment out of the game if they feel the gameplay difficulty helps fit into the setting of the world. But it's not something everyone is into.
 

Tophat Jones

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,946
I found hard plenty challenging tbh. I don't want to torture myself. And going into every encounter where stealth is a necessity instead of an option to initially thin the herd would make it less enjoyable to me.

A mode that drastically reduces the number of enemies but makes everything super realistic could be interesting. But if the game is going to throw dozens of enemies at me at a time and expect me to come out on top then it also makes sense that my character is a one man army beyond normal capabilities. That was my reasoning at least.

Im starting a NG+ and plan to explore a lot more so I'll start on survivor difficulty. But no qualms at all about lowering it if it becomes more of a chore than an enjoyment.