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It's fascinating to me how a gamer could believe in free will
- Thread starter BoJack
- Start date
If there's no free will, then they're not choosing to do that, so you shouldn't blame them. Oh, but your lack of free will means you're not choosing to blame them, you can't help yourself.
Fun all around.
Since this thread is already a little crazy...
If we're religious and believe humans are special because of free will, then Lucifer presumably didn't have free will. He was an angel who rebelled against his creator because he was specifically created to do just that. God then created hell as a prison for Lucifer and the third of all the angels in heaven who sided with him. He then told us he's a totally chill guy, that he loves us, and that he doesn't want to force us to worship him. It's a free choice. But if we don't worship him he'll send us to hell to roast alongside Lucifer in eternal torture and damnation. Totally free choice though, obviously. Yay to free will.
If we're religious and believe humans are special because of free will, then Lucifer presumably didn't have free will. He was an angel who rebelled against his creator because he was specifically created to do just that. God then created hell as a prison for Lucifer and the third of all the angels in heaven who sided with him. He then told us he's a totally chill guy, that he loves us, and that he doesn't want to force us to worship him. It's a free choice. But if we don't worship him he'll send us to hell to roast alongside Lucifer in eternal torture and damnation. Totally free choice though, obviously. Yay to free will.
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It's not that simple. It's not always like if you are poor you are doomed to do horrible things. There are countless poor people who did great things in their life and were successful. Look, genetics + environment is not a simple calculation. Sometimes power and money and even good environment could lead people to horrible things. Jeffrey Dummer for example, was a serial killer and he believed he had a great childhood. He actually said he was responsible for his actions. But human brain doesn't work in such a simple way. I believe, in this stance, that environment + genetics messed that guy up. Now am I saying we should let him be free and kill more people? No!
We are the product of our environmnets, which is why advertising and marketing are the massive industries that they are. Every single moment of their working days are spent finding ways to influence your environment to inundate you with product placement. Some of it is blatant, much of it is subtle. But everywhere you go you will be influenced by them, by your family, by your friends, by complete strangers. Your choice of forums to post on will then set you a new path of influence dependent on the overall climate and leanings of that forum. Etc, etc.
I'd wager that very little decisions that we make are ultimately ours, freely made and without influence.
This is definitely different than simulation theory, which would see us closer to Sims than anything else.
I'd wager that very little decisions that we make are ultimately ours, freely made and without influence.
This is definitely different than simulation theory, which would see us closer to Sims than anything else.
Weirdly games have informed my perspective on free will. Mostly The Sims. You can see how the interaction of simple behaviours can emulate something self-directed, albeit crudely. You have inherent traits biasing actions towards the external environment, impacting inherent traits, biasing actions... (etc.).
That presents the idea - 'Is free will needed'? Does it explain anything that isn't explained by that more simple interaction, and I don't think it does. Free will is definitely questionable - I can't just throw myself down a staircase, I'd have to want to do that, and I can't use my free will to create that desire. You can see how addiction tests the idea of free will, but how about the other behaviours I never have the thought to change - do I have free will there?
That presents the idea - 'Is free will needed'? Does it explain anything that isn't explained by that more simple interaction, and I don't think it does. Free will is definitely questionable - I can't just throw myself down a staircase, I'd have to want to do that, and I can't use my free will to create that desire. You can see how addiction tests the idea of free will, but how about the other behaviours I never have the thought to change - do I have free will there?
By the time photons reach your retinas, every event you witness has already happened. You can never not see the past, and will always be responding to it. Does that make one free?
You essentially just repeated what I said in my post in the first place.
And I also never suggested you were saying to let these people be free and kill more of them. I just said some deserve pity, some Cleary don't.
It was just Super Mario Galaxy 1.5 which still makes it one of the best 3D-platformers.
Maybe we are all Mario.
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Just one clear example is the fact that who is reading this thread and why?
First, you have to be a gamer. Why are you a gamer? Can you answer that question? I remember when I was a child I liked videogames. And I was lucky enough because my parents could afford a console. That's it. But why I like videogames? Did I choose to? I don't think so.
And then, you have to have a paid email in order to participate in this discussion. How did you manage to get that? I did it cuz I was lucky enough to go to university. Cuz I wasn't lucky enough to live in a normal country and be able to buy a required email. I had to ask my university. Lucky! Lucky for going to a shitty university in a field I resent. But that's another discussion. Back to my point, did I choose to go to university? Hell no. I had to. But what if I didn't have a chance to go there? I wasn't a member of this forum and we didn't have this conversation.
I feel like this is the perfect time to plug The Game Is Life book series. Gave me a similar existential crisis as The Matrix, but went even further down the rabbit hole.
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Because it's effort and if we're destined to always do the same thing always then who the fuck cares?
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Are you serious? Cuz I can't separate genuine arguments from mocking posts anymore.
Anyways, you have a good point. Its effort? So be it. I don't think we have the luxury to avoid or accept that. The only thing that is certain is this society can't function if we don't have a punishment system. And talking about it is most likely pointless, if that's your point. Cuz whatever happens, happens. But we can't help ourselves but having this pointless discussion, can we?
I mean it started on post 1, what can you do.
My point being, if we can attribute all bad actions to fate then we can attribute all potential good actions to fate too. So inaction or apathy is just as much a valid and justified response as any.
Given all the life events and variables that led up to you making a decision, could you have made a different decision? Or would you always have made the same decision?
It seems to me that we are on a big cause and effect rollercoaster driven by an emerging chain of events and hurtling towards an inevitable conclusion. Free will is an illusion. You were always going to make the decision you made. You couldn't have made any other because the conditions that caused you to make the decision were always leading in that direction.
or something.
It seems to me that we are on a big cause and effect rollercoaster driven by an emerging chain of events and hurtling towards an inevitable conclusion. Free will is an illusion. You were always going to make the decision you made. You couldn't have made any other because the conditions that caused you to make the decision were always leading in that direction.
or something.
I dunno about you, but I am high just reading all this.
But I agree, free will is an illusion. I become more empathetic and less judgmental since I realized that.
Do you think that God stays at her desk, because She too is afraid of what she's simulating here on Earth?
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oh op, you are so silly. you do not give yourself enough credit where credit is due. no one is playing you, you are playing everything! that is right op, my post, this forum, all you ever thought to experience was made by your own mind. your thread is just a thought made into forum post to trick yourself into believing there was something "other" than you. a great play! but you are all there is. there is none other. all is within you, alone.
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Okay so if you do, then why must we punish these people? Inaction can always be explained and justified with it being fate. If someone gets brutally murdered and everyone just shrugs their shoulders, by your point this is perfectly acceptable because it was the path they chose and will always choose.
Anyone who uses a philosophical argument about free will to excuse shitty behavior is still a shitty person. Oh, it isn't you, you're just a Gamertag for an actually shitty user, or an ultimately unfeeling NPC in an entropic simulation? Guess what, you're still an asshole, and people still have the right to call you out for your shit. And remember, it's not their fault, it's just their users/programming making them simulate their outrage!
/Not personally aimed at OP
Edit: Just realized that the OP's name is BoJack, a show that has a *lot* to say about being responsible for poor choices.
/Not personally aimed at OP
Edit: Just realized that the OP's name is BoJack, a show that has a *lot* to say about being responsible for poor choices.
You explained why not. They have no choice, and are just unlucky. I'm asking you why we need to punish them.
How is this certain?
This is correct as well
You're still accountable. That's how society works. The video I posted earlier talks about that as well. Look at how something like Alzheimer can change someone's personality completely. What's left of the freedom? It's cause and effect.
To use another great Einstein quote:
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I think you'd enjoy this video.
You (Probably) Don't Exist
Consciousness is a bit like poop. It's a mysterious internal process, and if you talk about it at parties you'll stop getting invited to parties.Books what I...
youtu.be
This "pointless discussion" would be rendered entirely incoherent if you didn't believe in free will since you are actively engaged in the task of persuasion, which presumes as a basic underlying premise that people can willfully change beliefs and actions which are demonstrated to be wrong. A bona fide free will skeptic would have zero interest in discourse or rhetoric
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I said it but do dont listen. Because the society won't function that way.
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You may be right. Honestly. And yes, I can't blame you. And believe me, it's so fucking hard, because you kinda sound like an asshole too, and I'm just a human being after all.
So there's Pascal's Wager, right? Essentially says if you believe in God, and do all the Christian things, it might save you from eternal life in Hell, so you should probably do it. While there's a lot of issues with that, I personally do the same thing with the simulation. Maybe it's a simulation, in which case everything is meaningless and apathy is a valid response, but maybe it's not, in which case maybe you want to do something about it.
I'm not saying I'm this passionate activist trying to change the world, but that's my position on the simulation argument.
I'm not saying I'm this passionate activist trying to change the world, but that's my position on the simulation argument.