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OP
OP
AnimaRize

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
Look I get a lot of people don't like the whole manifest into a physical power thing. One to my knowledge that rarely ever happens to that extent, even some games where the power of friendship is outright said unless it's something like persona they don't ever get a true power up with it. And two JRPG's use supernatural powers if it does happen that way it's not coming from no where it's just quite literally another power at the end of the day. I get it's cringe worthy when it happens but because of whatever magic system is in place it doesn't come out of nowhere. For me with whatever magic system is in play I look at it like it's that world's captain planet moment

Again I will reitirate I don't hate the trope I have just come to accept that this genre won't ever be rid of the trope
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,992
That's an incredibly weak argument on your behalf. Fantasy or gameplay elements in a game doesn't not suddenly absolve any criticism it might get for having weak, cheesy, unrelatable, deus-ex-machina-like bits in it...
The realism argument is always weak when discussing fiction.

It's especially weak when discussing fantasy fiction.

You can argue that it's not believable, and that could be a fair point.

But don't invoke "realism" when discussing a piece of media where elfs and dragons exist, and where people can launch fireballs with their bare hands.
 

SuzanoSho

Member
Dec 25, 2017
1,466
But don't invoke "realism" when discussing a piece of media where elfs and dragons exist, and where people can launch fireballs with their bare hands.
I don't think I have to repeat myself in regards to how nonsensical this claim is. You can absolutely invoke "realism" when you're discussing something like character interaction (a thing that exists), emotion (a thing that exists), etc. The fact that you're grasping at this straw-man just to be on the winning side of a discussion that has nothing to do with the fact that "elfs and dragons" existing is just pathetic on your part.

Please tell me more about how you can't "invoke realism" in regards to a discussion about Solid Snake's body language or reactions just because mEtAl GeArS aReNt ReAl.

Better yet, tell that to the people dismissing the animations in Mortal Kombat X because they don't look realistic...

Friendship being reduced as an abstract force manifesting into supernaturality and is the end-all solution to evil is not great.

^This. It's amazing how many people in this thread think "the power of friendship" is a reference to people simply working together, and I can't help but feel they're pretending, just to protect their precious JRPGs from any and all criticism...
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,103
Eh... P1 may be a outlier, but P2 play the trope, even if it's not at you face.

Tatsuya can't do a lot alone.
I'm on the final boss right now, and I still think it's barely there at all really.

I mean part of it is he's saving his friends, Eikichi, Lisa, and Jun. There was like you said, Tatsuya finally joining the party instead of doing everything on his own, but I don't think it leans into the "power of friendship" stuff that heavily.
 

Nickgia

Member
Dec 30, 2017
2,265
I love that Rex in xenoblade 2 has a battle quote talking about the power of friendship.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,992
I don't think I have to repeat myself in regards to how nonsensical this claim is. You can absolutely invoke "realism" when you're discussing something like character interaction (a thing that exists), emotion (a thing that exists), etc.
Dismissing the fact that "realism" as a philosophical concept is gigantic bag of worms, and also dismissing the claim that such interactions wouldn't be "realistic" in the first place, there is literally no reason that social interactions in a piece of fiction should behave 100% like the ones "in the real world". If you can accept that in the context of this fiction, giant, immemorial, fire breathing flying creatures exist, then there is no reason why you could no accept that social interactions in this world could involve levels of friendship "unrealistic" in our real world.

Edit: Say that you don't find it believable. Say that you don't like it. But don't invoke realism where it's inappropriate.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
In Persona at least its a central tenet of the world from the beginning that spiritual strength becomes manifested physical strength. That's what a Persona is, after all. It's not an asspull in that case to have the Tarot bonds give the main character strength, since that is the gameplay loop that the player has been using all game ---> Level Bond, Get Stronger Persona, Persona lets you level Bond faster leading to Stronger Persona, etc.

The times it's an issue is something like Final Fantasy XIII where there is no explanation, in-universe or "realistically", for what happens. It's just magic.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,665
OP, you know very well there are several exceptions to the rule, and then some.

Xenogears
Xenosaga
Final Fantasy XII
Valkyrie Profile
Valkyrie Profile 2

On and on. Many lists have been made with these games on them as a few examples.

Final Fantasy VI
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy XIII
Final Fantasy XIV
Final Fantasy XV
Tales of Xillia
Resonance of Fate
Hell, even Megaman Legends and Legends 2

It actually peeves me that you redefined the topic as 'people becoming friends'. You -want- an RPG where the characters form no lasting bond after going through life changing events with each other?

.hack//IMOQ
Golden Sun
Star Ocean 3

Like it's one thing if characters tag along for no reason other than the game wants you to have a full roster. But that's not the Power of Friendship trope. And we haven't gotten to SRPGs yet.

Fire Emblem Rekka no Ken
Disgaea
Eternal Poison
FF Tactics

Idk man, yeah a lot of RPGs promote friendship and camraderie, but I have a hard time thinking of a setup where it's just acquaintances that don't really get to know each other beyond a working relationship. That does not sound appealing.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,103
In Persona 1, it feels like half the playable party members actively dislike the other party members.
And that honestly makes it kind of interesting.

When Nanjo is actually suggesting just leaving Maki in that state after you get past Nyarlathotep/Kandori.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
And Cyberpunk2077 was also created only through the power of friendship!

OP, you know very well there are several exceptions to the rule, and then some.

Xenogears
Xenosaga
Final Fantasy XII
Valkyrie Profile
Valkyrie Profile 2

On and on. Many lists have been made with these games on them as a few examples.

Final Fantasy VI
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy XIII
Final Fantasy XIV
Final Fantasy XV
Tales of Xillia
Resonance of Fate
Hell, even Megaman Legends and Legends 2

It actually peeves me that you redefined the topic as 'people becoming friends'. You -want- an RPG where the characters form no lasting bond after going through life changing events with each other?

.hack//IMOQ
Golden Sun
Star Ocean 3

Like it's one thing if characters tag along for no reason other than the game wants you to have a full roster. But that's not the Power of Friendship trope. And we haven't gotten to SRPGs yet.

Fire Emblem Rekka no Ken
Disgaea
Eternal Poison
FF Tactics

Idk man, yeah a lot of RPGs promote friendship and camraderie, but I have a hard time thinking of a setup where it's just acquaintances that don't really get to know each other beyond a working relationship. That does not sound appealing.
You know you cant win, the way the OP has positioned it every time where teammebers work together/have an encouraging talk with eachother its "the power of friendship", und with that probably every party game ever fall sinto.
With that said... i have a view moments in FF6, FF7 has the whole cloud is off, we have to take care for him/do stuff.
8 Is about them realizing that thtey where childhood friends and squall need bee less a stick in the mud. Golden sun, they are literaly childhood friends, so power of friendship it is from the start.
I would not count them as power of friendship, but with ops view every one of these.
 
OP
OP
AnimaRize

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
OP, you know very well there are several exceptions to the rule, and then some.

Xenogears
Xenosaga
Final Fantasy XII
Valkyrie Profile
Valkyrie Profile 2

On and on. Many lists have been made with these games on them as a few examples.

Final Fantasy VI
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy XIII
Final Fantasy XIV
Final Fantasy XV
Tales of Xillia
Resonance of Fate
Hell, even Megaman Legends and Legends 2

It actually peeves me that you redefined the topic as 'people becoming friends'. You -want- an RPG where the characters form no lasting bond after going through life changing events with each other?

.hack//IMOQ
Golden Sun
Star Ocean 3

Like it's one thing if characters tag along for no reason other than the game wants you to have a full roster. But that's not the Power of Friendship trope. And we haven't gotten to SRPGs yet.

Fire Emblem Rekka no Ken
Disgaea
Eternal Poison
FF Tactics

Idk man, yeah a lot of RPGs promote friendship and camraderie, but I have a hard time thinking of a setup where it's just acquaintances that don't really get to know each other beyond a working relationship. That does not sound appealing.
This is the problem all of those games you mention do use the power of friendship in someway or another by the definition of power of friendship. You can look it up. And when people criticize power of friendship some may mean power of friendship manifestation the super power or captain planet moment, but a lot of the time when it's a complaint it's in a game that doesn't really have that moment. Since you use Xenogears and saga for examples let me counter with xenoblade, xenoblade 2 is constantly criticized because people believe it uses a power of friendship manifestation moment, except it doesn't none of the power ups gained are through a power of friendship moment, the only mention of it is in a battle line, xenoblade one in contrast does it all the time like almost Everytime shulk gets a new power, while it is coming from a source that is explained later it quite literally is a protagonist gets a power up wanting to save their friends that they never had previously, quite literally a power of friendship manifestation moment. But one is criticized the other isn't, and the one that is doesn't and have that moment that people say they hate.

Maybe I should have expressed the feelings in the original topic better by saying that I have excepted that the power of friendship and all the criticisms that come with it is an inherit part of the genre, because the power of friendship is in every JRPG except a very select few. A conclusion I've come to that after letting this topic sit for a while
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,992
This is the problem all of those games you mention do use the power of friendship in someway or another by the definition of power of friendship. You can look it up. And when people criticize power of friendship some may mean power of friendship manifestation the super power or captain planet moment, but a lot of the time when it's a complaint it's in a game that doesn't really have that moment. Since you use Xenogears and saga for examples let me counter with xenoblade, xenoblade 2 is constantly criticized because people believe it uses a power of friendship manifestation moment, except it doesn't none of the power ups gained are through a power of friendship moment, the only mention of it is in a battle line, xenoblade one in contrast does it all the time like almost Everytime shulk gets a new power, while it is coming from a source that is explained later it quite literally is a protagonist gets a power up wanting to save their friends that they never had previously, quite literally a power of friendship manifestation moment. But one is criticized the other isn't, and the one that is doesn't and have that moment that people say they hate.

Maybe I should have expressed the feelings in the original topic better by saying that I have excepted that the power of friendship and all the criticisms that come with it is an inherit part of the genre, because the power of friendship is in every JRPG except a very select few. A conclusion I've come to that after letting this topic sit for a while
I think most don't actually have a problem with the "power of friendship" per se, but simply don't like "cheesy" stuff, and these "power of friendship moments" are often cheesy in JRPGs.

The problem is that most gamers (note: same could be said for movies and other entertainment) are unable/unwilling to properly articulate their issues with a game, and fall back to invoking rehashed complaints, like "power of friendship" being "unrealistic" or "tropey" or whatever else.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,665
This is the problem all of those games you mention do use the power of friendship in someway or another by the definition of power of friendship. You can look it up. And when people criticize power of friendship some may mean power of friendship manifestation the super power or captain planet moment, but a lot of the time when it's a complaint it's in a game that doesn't really have that moment. Since you use Xenogears and saga for examples let me counter with xenoblade, xenoblade 2 is constantly criticized because people believe it uses a power of friendship manifestation moment, except it doesn't none of the power ups gained are through a power of friendship moment, the only mention of it is in a battle line, xenoblade one in contrast does it all the time like almost Everytime shulk gets a new power, while it is coming from a source that is explained later it quite literally is a protagonist gets a power up wanting to save their friends that they never had previously, quite literally a power of friendship manifestation moment. But one is criticized the other isn't, and the one that is doesn't and have that moment that people say they hate.

Maybe I should have expressed the feelings in the original topic better by saying that I have excepted that the power of friendship and all the criticisms that come with it is an inherit part of the genre, because the power of friendship is in every JRPG except a very select few. A conclusion I've come to that after letting this topic sit for a while
I don't understand. You made this topic to point out said inconsistency between complaints, is that it?
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,266
The concept is fine, the implementation is usually the problem.

One or two moments of stifling sincerity won't kill you. Even if it is poorly written.

But when you have some like liked Tales of Graces with the above AND repeated non-stop, that is a problem.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Maybe I should have expressed the feelings in the original topic better by saying that I have excepted that the power of friendship and all the criticisms that come with it is an inherit part of the genre, because the power of friendship is in every JRPG except a very select few. A conclusion I've come to that after letting this topic sit for a while

I just don't think you're using The Power of Friendship to mean what people mean when they denigrate Power of Friendship moments.

The Power of Friendship becoming manifested as a physical force that solves a conflict is what people hate.

Weird examples in this thread like Mass Effect 2 where loyalty makes a military team more cohesive and work better together and produce a better result doesn't qualify.
 

Mr. Genuine

Member
Mar 23, 2018
1,622
Uh.

When people criticize "The Power of Friendship" as a trope, what they mean is the protagonists' method of overcoming the villain in the end is literally just reminding themselves and each other that they are friends. It's just really cliche and a lazy method of writing, where the resolution of the conflict is really unsatisfying.

The literal act of cooperation and working as a team has nothing to do with the trope.
 
OP
OP
AnimaRize

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
I don't understand. You made this topic to point out said inconsistency between complaints, is that it?
No at the time I was just accepting that this trope was an inherit part of the genre and I have accepted that it was. It was through this topic where I learned the definition of it and letting it sit I noticed the inconsistency. Like the games you mentioned all use the power of friendship by definition in some way or another. The inconsistency started to show. If it's as user HBK said that people don't like when it is used cheesily maybe that's why it is criticized. But the original intent of this topic was just to say my acceptance of the trope and not that I hate it. It was originally my way of stating I won't be criticizing JRPG's for using it, as to me it became a criticizing a children's show for being a children's show criticism
 

Kivvi

Member
Jun 25, 2018
1,708
I was sick of "the power of friendship" as well OP, that's why I played Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne. Friendship doesn't really exist there.
 

Protoman200X

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,583
N. Vancouver, BC, Canada
I was sick of "the power of friendship" as well OP, that's why I played Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne. Friendship doesn't really exist there.

Or the majority of the games in the SMT series, where the bulk of the games are an anti-thesis to contemporary JRPG's.

Except the Persona series, especially the latter/modern entries emphasizes heavily the importance of friends in your life, and their mutual contribution to help everyone in their group go through the hard times in their lives and develop as people.
 
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Kivvi

Member
Jun 25, 2018
1,708
Or the majority of the games in the SMT series, where the bulk of the games are an anti-thesis to contemporary JRPG's.

Except the Persona series, especially the latter/modern entries.
I mentioned Nocturne simply because we're getting the remaster soon-ish. :)
Digital Devil Saga 1/2, the older SMT games and the Raido games are all great as well.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,665
No at the time I was just accepting that this trope was an inherit part of the genre and I have accepted that it was. It was through this topic where I learned the definition of it and letting it sit I noticed the inconsistency. Like the games you mentioned all use the power of friendship by definition in some way or another. The inconsistency started to show. If it's as user HBK said that people don't like when it is used cheesily maybe that's why it is criticized. But the original intent of this topic was just to say my acceptance of the trope and not that I hate it. It was originally my way of stating I won't be criticizing JRPG's for using it, as to me it became a criticizing a children's show for being a children's show criticism
It just feels like this is something common enough in any media that it's folly to hound on it regardless.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfFriendship

I mean, even LoTR uses this.
 

Synohan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,980
I don't know.that is the definition for it
I mean, say you're in a class and you have the option to work on a project solo or in a group. Yourself and others choose to form a group, seeing that the workload might be too much alone. You pass with flying colors due to having that group. Is that the power of friendship and not just cooperating with others that share the goal of getting that project done with a satisfactory grade?
 
Jun 24, 2019
6,393
The Caligula Effect: Overdose subverts this trope in the Musician route. No...in fact, it fucking destroys it in an epic way.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
I don't know.that is the definition for it

It is not. It is literally just a thing you made up. Forget JRPGs, your definition of the "power of friendship" is so broad that 99.9% of all human accomplishments could be attributed to it.

You should make a new thread: "I've come to accept that human civilizations will never not have the power of friendship in them".

I mean, say you're in a class and you have the option to work on a project solo or in a group. Yourself and others choose to form a group, seeing that the workload might be too much alone. You pass with flying colors due to having that group. Is that the power of friendship and not just cooperating with others that share the goal of getting that project done with a satisfactory grade?

Only if they start glowing and spend 5 minutes grunting and yelling before they turn the project in.
 
OP
OP
AnimaRize

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
It is not. It is literally just a thing you made up. Forget JRPGs, your definition of the "power of friendship" is so broad that 99.9% of all human accomplishments could be attributed to it.

You should make a new thread: "I've come to accept that human civilizations will never not have the power of friendship in them".
Sure something "I" made up. You can check the definition of the trope yourself

PS. Zen I am not addressing you with this just you had the link
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,146
UK
Sure something "I" made up. You can check the definition of the trope yourself

PS. Zen I am not addressing you with this just you had the link

Days later and you've still not realised that your description of the trope isn't matching the trope at all... You're literally encompassing any form of co-operation. I honestly don't know how you're being so oblivious lol
 
OP
OP
AnimaRize

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
Days later and you've still not realised that your description of the trope isn't matching the trope at all... You're literally encompassing any form of co-operation. I honestly don't know how you're being so oblivious lol

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ThePowerOfFriendship/VideoGames

  • Choose a video-game where players are put in teams and have to play against one another. Any game. Even if one team has better players, if they're not working together or supporting one another, and the other team is, the other team is almost certainly going to win.
A recurring theme in Dragon Age:
Depending on how you play the Warden, Dragon Age: Origins has some very powerful examples of this. A female Warden who befriends Morrigan can induce her to admit that she has never had or even wanted a friend before, but has come to view the Warden almost as a sister. A number of the other companions have similar trust issues, but with thoughtful gifts and compassionate dialogue choices, you can get them to make similar confessions regardless of the Warden's gender. This translates in gameplay as stat boosts.
In Dragon Age II, the mechanic returns, allowing you to build up Friendship by making choices your current two companions agree with... As well as building up Rivalry, which makes them fight just as hard to either sway you to their reasoning, prove you wrong, or just out of spite. Ultimately, however, both the Power of Friendship and the Power of Rivalry lead to Undying Loyalty if you spend enough time with a character
  • The Ebony Blade as seen in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is a sword that technically runs off the Power of Friendship... by which we mean the sword gets stronger if you use it to murder characters you have become close friends with. The Ebony Blade as seen in previous Elder Scrolls games did not have this ability.
Final Fantasy:
  • Final Fantasy IV (II in its firstwestern release):
    • The player's party is about to be wiped out right before the final battle, when the camera switches back to Earth, to show people sending "their prayers" to the characters. After that, several of the protagonist's friends (some dead ones too!) materialize briefly by his side with words of encouragement. Each such speech heals the members a bit, until they're at full strength again.
    • The same game also turns it against you with the Archfiends. After taking down the final Fiend, Rubicante, he realizes that you beat him because your party fought him as a team (he realized this sooner when you defeated him in his solo boss fight).
  • In Final Fantasy VI, upon reaching the Final Boss, the party responds to his nihilistic revelations by talking about all of the individual bonds they've made with one another, what they've learned throughout their individual experience, and why real love is worth risking their lives and fighting to preserve. The villain's response? "This is sickening. You sound like chapters from a self help booklet!" Kefka is wrong. He is stopped. It's also worth noting that in a game where one of the central themes is "human connection makes you a person," Kefka, the villain, is alone in absolutely every way.
  • In Final Fantasy IX, after a particularly distressing revelation, Zidane turns into a zombie-like Jerkass [SUP]note [/SUP]and tries to go it alone. His friends gather around him and convince him that they need each other, helping him turn back into a nice guy.
    • This is used more literally during the ending; after the party is completely wiped out by Kuja's Ultima and helpless when Necron appears, the four party members not participating in the final battle hand their power over to the four others, fully healing them and giving a few encouraging words as they do so.
  • Final Fantasy XII pulled this one twice: once when the main cast is getting ready to fly off to destroy the source of the game's Applied Phlebotinum, and again when they're just getting ready to fight the Big Bad.
  • Grand Theft Auto V of all things heavily employs this trope, particularly in the Golden Ending. Rather than kill his two friends and mentor figures at the behest of Devin Weston and the FIB, Franklin instead opts to get Michael and Trevor together to take down everyone who wants them dead, despite the latter two's ongoing feud. In the end, the protagonists eliminate all their enemies, deal with their inner demons, strengthen their bonds, and earn their happy endings. The other endings where Franklin betrays one of the two are much bleaker.


You really want to go an say that when these are the examples given. This isn't my words twisting the meaning. IT IS the meaning
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,146
UK
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ThePowerOfFriendship/VideoGames




You really want to go an say that when these are the examples given. This isn't my words twisting the meaning. IT IS the meaning

This is the last time I'll attempt to explain what you're missing... Posting examples of the trope, doesn't change that you've been given examples galore of co-operation that don't = Power of Friendship, but you've then refuted that they aren't PoF by saying that if a team of people works together, they're an example of the trope... You've basically turned any act of co-operation into the trope. TV Tropes didn't do that.

Anyway, I literally only posted again as I could honestly not believe you were still going at it, so as last time, you do you :P
 
OP
OP
AnimaRize

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
This is the last time I'll attempt to explain what you're missing... Posting examples of the trope, doesn't change that you've been given examples galore of co-operation that don't = Power of Friendship, but you've then refuted that they aren't PoF by saying that if a team of people works together, they're an example of the trope... You've basically turned any act of co-operation into the trope. TV Tropes didn't do that.

Anyway, I literally only posted again as I could honestly not believe you were still going at it, so as last time, you do you :P
I didn't make the trope, I didn't make the tv tropes page I didn't make those examples in the page that one literally states that playing on a team in multiplayer is the power of friendship. That is the definition of the trope. Quite literally what I stated in the op. What people have criticized before for it. You are saying it isn't. But the examples on that page quite literally says it is.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,476
Réunion
Well it's a genre that targets teenagers with some outliers here and there, not much you can do.

Exactly. In my mind, "J"-RPG are mostly shounen made games. And by that, I mean that if you've already read a Shounen manga, i.e. a manga aimed at male teenagers, you should probably know the friendship/power of friendship cliché. That's why most of the time, the main character is a teenage boy. And that's also why sometimes you'll find sexualization of some female characters here and there - you just need to read the most basic shounen manga and you will understand what I mean by that. In fact, you just have to look at the cover of a shounen magazine (magazine aimed at male teenagers), that should be enough.
 
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