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RPGamer2

Member
Jul 19, 2018
618
But with half the supply aligned of it's 4th place market. So sidelining in another sense.
You say sidelining, I say smart resource allocation. I'm not going to split hairs over 100k difference in two countries for a launch, if you want to die on that hill, that's cool. Any by die mean asses Sony's entire Japanese PS5 strategy from day one.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,501
I think I discussed this on here a while ago, but the content they provided did not line up with the what consumers were purchasing on handhelds the previous generation, and it was obvious the bulk of it was coming from their B-tier studios on top of that.

I don't think Uncharted Golden Abyss being made by ND instead of Bend, for example, would have made much difference. Nor Killzone Mercenary by Guerilla instead of Guerilla Cambridge. No God of War or Gran Turismo portable follow-up was an error though, in my opinion. And the lack of Monster Hunter from a third party perspective was definitely problematic, but that speaks to the issue a few people have mentioned already on how Sony relies too much on third parties to carry their system in Japan now.

If for whatever reason they lost MH (like they did on Vita), or Final Fantasy, they'd be fucked. You compare that to how well Switch has been doing before it gets a flagship MH title. It's night and day, and it's been more or less all of the back of first-party content.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,023
300k for 1 week versus 200k for 2 weeks. For a smaller market, that's not splitting hairs.
I said this to you in the other thread, but I'll repeat it here: Japan might be a bigger market in terms of hardware but when it comes to software they sell more of it in the UK and that's more profitable considering the profit margins. In light of that I'd love to hear any logical reason as to why sending more to the UK is a bad move?
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Not a competitor that they can fight by simply shiping 100k more units to the market.

Neither 100k are going to be decisive in the UK market, it will be anecdotal and irrelevant in the next month. Is a matter of pressence and importance. UK as other EU countries matters more for Sony than Japan.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,933
Of course. There could be some truth to the article but the sentiment on this forum is as if Sony is completely ignoring Japan. They're clearly focusing on homogenization but it's still way too early to really say how this will affect each market, but using the Bloomberg article as some absolute form of truth is what I find extremely off-putting.
The Bloomberg article presents facts to paint a picture of de-prioritization of Japan, Ryan's comments are nominally in opposition to that but carefully worded in a way that doesn't actually dispute any points the article raises. There's really nothing wrong taking the article at face value, what I found more off-putting was the heavy handed effort to discredit it.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,106
Paris
His number was 1.8 million, and then there's digital and future sales.

If 10 million people bought the NSW as primarily a home console, you could expect a primarily home console game to sell 4+ million (at least on a Nintendo platform, where game sales are more consolidated to the top games).

A more difficult case to draw any conclusions from would be if 25 million bought the console on the premise that it does both portable and home console gaming well. In that case, even if Ringfit sold 20 million, that doesn't mean that it follows that 20 million people would buy something that is strictly a home console.

It is difficult to use the Switch as evidence that there is a demographic who is interested in something, when there is so much room for it to appeal to other demographics including ones that basically never existed before.

There's no digital for Ring Fit, the number quoted miss the physical sales from MyNintendoStore though, with that Ring Fit is already around 2M, it's still short in supply with almost non existing used sales so it will blow past 3M LTD as a home console only game

I'm not sure where you want to go with your calculations, Ring Fit was used to show that home console only games on Switch can sell millions, and, while not home console only, Momotaro Dentetsu is a 3rd party title (that was closely associated with Sony platforms before btw) mainly focused on multiplayer at home and well on its way to sell past 1M

These are hard numbers to show without a doubt that there's room for home console only games to have healthy sales and even experiment growth (in the case of Momotaro Dentetsu), Sony just isn't trying anymore whether through 1st party games or 3rd party partnership and is not providing a healthy platform on the Japanese market for that reason, the potentialis there and there's not some kind of "15M" audience that is capped in any form.

The declining japanese market for Sony is a self fulfilling prophecy.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
I said this to you in the other thread, but I'll repeat it here: Japan might be a bigger market in terms of hardware but when it comes to software they sell more of it in the UK and that's more profitable considering the profit margins. In light of that I'd love to hear any logical reason as to why sending more to the UK is a bad move?

I don't think no one is saying is a bad move, but rather a proof that indeed Sony is sidelining Japan. And is just based on numbers and market trends and not because Ryan hates Japan.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,933
I said this to you in the other thread, but I'll repeat it here: Japan might be a bigger market in terms of hardware but when it comes to software they sell more of it in the UK and that's more profitable considering the profit margins. In light of that I'd love to hear any logical reason as to why sending more to the UK is a bad move?
Maybe this is where we're missing each other, I'm not saying prioritizing the UK is a bad move or even the wrong approach. I'm just saying that yes, this means they are sidelining Japan to some degree.
 
Jun 12, 2018
492
There's no digital for Ring Fit, the number quoted miss the physical sales from MyNintendoStore though, with that Ring Fit is already around 2M, it's still short in supply with almost non existing used sales so it will blow past 3M LTD as a home console only game

I'm not sure where you want to go with your calculations, Ring Fit was used to show that home console only games on Switch can sell millions, and, while not home console only, Momotaro Dentetsu is a 3rd party title (that was closely associated with Sony platforms before btw) mainly focused on multiplayer at home and well on its way to sell past 1M

These are hard numbers to show without a doubt that there's room for home console only games to have healthy sales and even experiment growth (in the case of Momotaro Dentetsu), Sony just isn't trying anymore whether through 1st party games or 3rd party partnership and is not providing a healthy platform on the Japanese market for that reason, the potentialis there and there's not some kind of "15M" audience that is capped in any form.

The declining japanese market for Sony is a self fulfilling prophecy.
So are they doomed yet?
 

Deleted member 15360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,477
The decline to ps2 -> PS3 was much harsh compared to ps3-> PS4 where the difference is just a million and I'm pretty sure p&l wise, PS4 would be better.

I do think they are in a better position to focus on Japan and make efforts compared to 2013
 

Empyrean Cocytus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,725
Upstate NY
As well it should, especially with anime and weeb culture being so massive.

Plus it helps with female engagement since girls tend to play more Japanese-developed games.
 

Rex1157

Banned
Nov 22, 2017
1,429
I do feel that Jim Ryan's Playstation is a bit out of touch with what the Playstation core audience wants, but some folks here are way too in love with this Sony abandoning Japan/in disarray narrative based on hearsay from an unreliable source.
 

Deleted member 63122

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 16, 2020
9,071
The decline to ps2 -> PS3 was much harsh compared to ps3-> PS4 where the difference is just a million and I'm pretty sure p&l wise, PS4 would be better.

I do think they are in a better position to focus on Japan and make efforts compared to 2013
And that was with a weak Wii U and 3DS not receiving as much support, imagine now that the Switch is way stronger than both?
 

IOTS

Member
Dec 13, 2019
805
Neither 100k are going to be decisive in the UK market, it will be anecdotal and irrelevant in the next month. Is a matter of pressence and importance. UK as other EU countries matters more for Sony than Japan.
Its still important to get a fast foothold and get the ball rolling. Japan is different. Japan is dominated by the mobile market but Sony has a unique position with the japanese third party games that are practically exclusive to them. If people want to play FF etc. they will buy a PS.

Still not sure why you are so adamant about the shipment numbers. Do you fear Sony will not be able to meet demand in japan?
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,933
You say sidelining, I say smart resource allocation. I'm not going to split hairs over 100k difference in two countries for a launch, if you want to die on that hill, that's cool. Any by die mean asses Sony's entire Japanese PS5 strategy from day one.
I wouldn't disagree on the merits of prioritizing the UK and depriortizing Japan. I'm just saying prioritizing the UK and depriortizing Japan is what they're actually doing. No hill to die on, I was just looking for a straight answer out of you.
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
I don't think Uncharted Golden Abyss being made by ND instead of Bend, for example, would have made much difference. Nor Killzone Mercenary by Guerilla instead of Guerilla Cambridge. No God of War or Gran Turismo portable follow-up was an error though, in my opinion. And the lack of Monster Hunter from a third party perspective was definitely problematic, but that speaks to the issue a few people have mentioned already on how Sony relies too much on third parties to carry their system in Japan now.

If for whatever reason they lost MH (like they did on Vita), or Final Fantasy, they'd be fucked. You compare that to how well Switch has been doing before it gets a flagship MH title. It's night and day, and it's been more or less all of the back of first-party content.
I think it's everything. I think, with regards to the earlier part, Sony was sending the "wrong message" to the market about where their priorities were, and to the latter, it speaks to me that Sony didn't make enough efforts to secure third party support on the platform. Basically, the double death.
 

salromano

Mr. Gematsu
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,937
Momotaro Dentetsu is a 3rd party title (that was closely associated with Sony platforms before btw) mainly focused on multiplayer at home and well on its way to sell past 1M

Highlighted part isn't really true. There have been some Momotaro Dentetsu games on PlayStation (and even one on Xbox 360, TIL), but with nine releases on PlayStation versus 17 releases on Nintendo, I think it's fair to say it's mainly associated with Nintendo.

KR2f1lW.png
 

Deleted member 15360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,477
And that was with a weak Wii U and 3DS not receiving as much support, imagine now that the Switch is way stronger than both?

In 2013, before PS4 launch

They had a failure in Vita
Huge losses from PS3
Only 1first party being 10mil sellers
10 mil difference between PS2 and PS3 in jp
360 dominating the NA markets
Losing a lot of exclusives to multiplatform to 360

Compared to that they are much better
 

MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
If that isn't the weakest damage control I've ever seen. Even worse than their "think of the children" excuse surrounding the crossplay fiasco.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,452
by this time next year Microsoft will own japan


100% a joke
 

RPGamer2

Member
Jul 19, 2018
618
I wouldn't disagree on the merits of prioritizing the UK and depriortizing Japan. I'm just saying prioritizing the UK and depriortizing Japan is what they're actually doing. No hill to die on, I was just looking for a straight answer out of you.
You can literally make the case for any gaming hardware manufacturer company at any time for this practice. A Bloomberg article doesn't make this practice Sony specific. There have been numerous times in gaming history during launches and shortages that gaming companies prioritized different regions over others, its not new. Using this against the PS5 as some gotcha moment for Sony and their efforts in Japan is just silly.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,501
Maybe this is where we're missing each other, I'm not saying prioritizing the UK is a bad move or even the wrong approach. I'm just saying that yes, this means they are sidelining Japan to some degree.

The implication of 'sidelining' vs. 'prioritising' is pretty clear though. In a world where we're in the middle of a pandemic, production pipelines are under stress demand is forecast to be high, why would prioritising a bigger market with more units be sidelining another? We're getting into semantics here but there are clear implications by using one word over the other, which is the issue.


I think it's everything. I think, with regards to the earlier part, Sony was sending the "wrong message" to the market about where their priorities were, and to the latter, it speaks to me that Sony didn't make enough efforts to secure third party support on the platform. Basically, the double death.

I mean I can't speak to whether or not Sony did enough to secure third party support in Japan because I wasn't in the meetings they had. Japanese third party support on the Switch was weak early on, was that Nintendo's fault for not doing enough? Hard to really place blame when we don't have all the facts. All we know is that for one reason or another, key support they got with the PSP didn't materialise with the Vita which, to me, was a much bigger problem for them in Japan than their first party support.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,023
I don't think no one is saying is a bad move, but rather a proof that indeed Sony is sidelining Japan. And is just based on numbers and market trends and not because Ryan hates Japan.
Maybe this is where we're missing each other, I'm not saying prioritizing the UK is a bad move or even the wrong approach. I'm just saying that yes, this means they are sidelining Japan to some degree.
Ah ok, I got ya. The thing is I don't even disagree with the premise that Japan isn't as important to Sony as it was, I'm on-board with that completely and there's enough evidence to support that. I kind of just don't really agree that the lower shipments mean much (considering the pandemic/supply issues/demand for the thing) - I think it's just smart business. I think there are other better things to point at to demonstrate the point such as how they treat non-AAA Japanese games/devs, their complete lack of interest in marketing these games etc.
 

IOTS

Member
Dec 13, 2019
805
User Banned (3 Days) - Continued cross-thread drama

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Ah ok, I got ya. The thing is I don't even disagree with the premise that Japan isn't as important to Sony as it was, I'm on-board with that completely and there's enough evidence to support that. I kind of just don't really agree that the lower shipments mean much (considering the pandemic/supply issues/demand for the thing) - I think it's just smart business. I think there are other better things to point at to demonstrate the point such as how they treat non-AAA Japanese games/devs, their complete lack of interest in marketing these games etc.

The lower shipments by itself don't mean much, but it adds to the pile of things and serves as another demonstration to the Bloomberg article argument many people tries to dismiss.
 

Empyrean Cocytus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,725
Upstate NY
Im so sick of the weird jim ryan hater boner off of literally nothing.

He did say that Sony believes in console generations, then went back on that when Miles Morales, Sackboy, and Horizon FW all got PS4 ports and has hinted there are more to come (like GoWR). While personally I'm perfectly fine with that due to not going next-gen right away (and due to the global pandemic, we really shouldn't be demanding people drop $500 to play new games) it is seen by some as deceit.
 

the-pi-guy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,277
I'm not sure where you want to go with your calculations, Ring Fit was used to show that home console only games on Switch can sell millions, and, while not home console only, Momotaro Dentetsu is a 3rd party title (that was closely associated with Sony platforms before btw) mainly focused on multiplayer at home and well on its way to sell past 1M

These are hard numbers to show without a doubt that there's room for home console only games to have healthy sales and even experiment growth (in the case of Momotaro Dentetsu),

My point is that it is difficult to try to determine trends from the Nintendo Switch.

Here's an example: if I am someone who spends most of their time commuting, a console that is portable or has the option can be more appealing. I might spend enough time at home to justify buying 3 games that I have to play at home, but I don't spend enough time to justify ever buying a console that can only be played at home.
Similarly if there were 20 million people like that, you would find 20 million that might buy a home game for their Switch, but they would never buy a home console regardless of the games.

The Switch isn't just a home console, it isn't just a portable console. It offers flexibility. And that flexibility means that it can appeal to people that would never be interested in just a home console.

Sony just isn't trying anymore whether through 1st party games or 3rd party partnership and is not providing a healthy platform on the Japanese market for that reason, the potentialis there and there's not some kind of "15M" audience that is capped in any form.

The declining japanese market for Sony is a self fulfilling prophecy.

I agree that Sony can and should do more.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,106
Paris
So are they doomed yet?

To declining sales in Japan ?
As things stand yes, they will remain a major actor but with dwindling influence, they seem to be ok with that and made peace with it, not everyone has though apparently

Highlighted part isn't really true. There have been some Momotaro Dentetsu games on PlayStation (and even one on Xbox 360, TIL), but with nine releases on PlayStation versus 17 releases on Nintendo, I think it's fair to say it's mainly associated with Nintendo.

KR2f1lW.png

The nuance might be worth mentioning yes, but from 1997 to 2006 the IP was indeed closely associated with Sony, it had a few main exclusives (7, V, X USA, XV), the best selling titles by far (7 at 770k, X V and XI at ~500k, you can check here) that there were a couple handhelds only titles that sold a meager amount and a couple multiplatform entries whose sales were for the largest part on Sony platforms, doesn't change that.

The years after the PS2 was when the IP popularity waned and Konami stopped releasing games, the Wii entry then had a spectacular resurgence after it was feature on TV in the mid 2010's, it prompted Nintendo's effort to contact Konami for a series revival on 3DS and the rest is what we're witnessing right now.
 

JorSneezy

Member
Oct 17, 2019
407
"The Sony stance . . ." is the key part here. Jim Ryan doesn't think that market is important, but his bosses believe it is.
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,691
He did say that Sony believes in console generations, then went back on that when Miles Morales, Sackboy, and Horizon FW all got PS4 ports and has hinted there are more to come (like GoWR). While personally I'm perfectly fine with that due to not going next-gen right away (and due to the global pandemic, we really shouldn't be demanding people drop $500 to play new games) it is seen by some as deceit.
You can still believe in generations while still putting cross-gen games. DualSense doesn't work with the PS4. Games designed for PS5's SSD (like R&C) won't work on PS4. There aren't Activities on the PS4.
 

Empyrean Cocytus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,725
Upstate NY
"The Sony stance . . ." is the key part here. Jim Ryan doesn't think that market is important, but his bosses believe it is.

Which is bizarre to me since Japanese devs - Namco with Tekken/Ridge Racer, Capcom with Resident Evil/Street Fighter, Square with Final Fantasy, Konami/Kojima with Metal Gear Solid - were what basically built the PlayStation brand. While Sony has shifted their focus more to western devs - Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sucker Punch, Rockstar - in the last two decades, that doesn't mean that you competely give up that loyalty especially with there being only one competitor there (Nintendo) as opposed to having two across the rest of the world.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
PS is also getting more support from third parties.


Im not sure what you mean with the first part of your post but the second part is an understatement.
You're purposely antagonizing and brushing off anything anyone has to say. You're acting like a console warrior right here and believe that people from Media Create will get all Nintendo fanboy defensive over hearing how the 3DS was weak when nobody will disagree. It's lower than the DS, it was a decline in Japan, didn't get as many games as it could have, and it was worse in the rest of the world, and much of it came from the hardware launch and it being generally unappealing. The price point was perceived to be bad and the 3D gimmick didn't justify its the high price. What saved it from becoming a total loss was Nintendo drastically dropping the price within months after launch.

Also Media Create threads are free for alls. When a system does poorly it will get lambasted. You should have seen the Wii U era. Pretty sure some were happy to finally see it go so it could be replaced.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,933
You can literally make the case for any gaming hardware manufacturer company at any time for this practice. A Bloomberg article doesn't make this practice Sony specific. There have been numerous times in gaming history during launches and shortages that gaming companies prioritized different regions over others, its not new. Using this against the PS5 as some gotcha moment for Sony and their efforts in Japan is just silly.
I think the only "gotcha moment" here regarding low JP shipments were with the Fake News Warriors desperately trying to discredit Mochizuki.

The implication of 'sidelining' vs. 'prioritising' is pretty clear though. In a world where we're in the middle of a pandemic, production pipelines are under stress demand is forecast to be high, why would prioritising a bigger market with more units be sidelining another? We're getting into semantics here but there are clear implications by using one word over the other, which is the issue.
Sure, I can see a semantic difference in language there, even if they're functionally the same. I would say this is a good example of actually "splitting hairs".

Although Japan is still a larger market than the UK, both overall and specifically for PlayStation.

Ah ok, I got ya. The thing is I don't even disagree with the premise that Japan isn't as important to Sony as it was, I'm on-board with that completely and there's enough evidence to support that. I kind of just don't really agree that the lower shipments mean much (considering the pandemic/supply issues/demand for the thing) - I think it's just smart business. I think there are other better things to point at to demonstrate the point such as how they treat non-AAA Japanese games/devs, their complete lack of interest in marketing these games etc.
Lower than proportional shipments were just one variable raised regarding Sony's larger de-prioritization of Japan. It's not the argument for that, just part of it.
 

RPGamer2

Member
Jul 19, 2018
618
You're purposely antagonizing and brushing off anything anyone has to say. You're acting like a console warrior right here and believe that people from Media Create will get all Nintendo fanboy defensive over hearing how the 3DS was weak when nobody will disagree. It's lower than the DS, it was a decline in Japan, didn't get as many games as it could have, and it was worse in the rest of the world, and much of it came from the hardware launch and it being generally unappealing. The price point was perceived to be bad and the 3D gimmick didn't justify its the high price. What saved it from becoming a total loss was Nintendo drastically dropping the price within months after launch.

Also Media Create threads are free for alls. When a system does poorly it will get lambasted. You should have seen the Wii U era. Pretty sure some were happy to finally see it go so it could be replaced.
The point of a sales thread isn't to lambast a poor selling product. That is how you drive away voice diversity and are left with echo chambers.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Sounds like it's something he believes in.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
The point of a sales thread isn't to lambast a poor selling product. That is how you drive away voice diversity and are left with echo chambers.
There's always going to be harsh criticism of a product doing poorly. That's the fact of life. And where were you when the Wii U behind a rainy window image was going around all across the old forum or the chalkboard image of "This will save Wii U" with each game getting crossed out. Even began appearing in sales threads. That level of toxicity at least isn't around for the PS4.
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
PS4 also had all of those yet Nintendo dominated Japan. If Sony wants a piece of cake that's Japanese market, they have to focus on countering Nintendo giants like Mario, Zelda and Pokémon. I don't think they have any chance for that.

They should also stop alienating the Japanese audience by catering to the west. They've been doing that since the PS3.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
There's always going to be harsh criticism of a product doing poorly. That's the fact of life. And where were you when the Wii U behind a rainy window image was going around all across the old forum or the chalkboard image of "This will save Wii U" with each game getting crossed out. Even began appearing in sales threads. That level of toxicity at least isn't around for the PS4.

In general people shouldn't have to dance around discussing points of failure on a poorly selling product because someone might have an emotional attachment and get their feelings hurt by proxy.
 

zero_suit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,578
In general people shouldn't have to dance around discussing points of failure on a poorly selling product because someone might have an emotional attachment and get their feelings hurt by proxy.
We certainly won't be dancing around it in the Media Create threads for the PS5 in Japan.