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Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Seems like a low-key way of backing out of VR... I hope not. The PS4 Pro / PSVR analogy does hold water, though.

I see a lot of talk about AR (especially from Apple) but have yet to see it really gain a foothold.

Kinect redeemed?
AR has great potential to be used in real world uses as a tool, less so as a gaming experience.
Especially in training situations (overlays/hud that interact with your hands and give you aditional information -> see iron mans helmet), while VR removes you from your real hands and sorounding.

So even if Apple pushes it, it probably wont be big in gaming (for now, there is future potential, a fully featured pokemon go with mons that interact with th environment...but thats future stuff)
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,202
Chesire, UK
VR simply still isn't ready for prime time. PSVR sold to ~4% of the addressable base and Sony clearly sees that writing on the wall.

The current technology is too cumbersome, and that will continue to be true for as long as it requires a bulky headset.

3D TVs failed because people didn't like wearing a lightweight pair of glasses. Even people for who it is a medial necessity and a massive QoL improvement don't like wearing glasses, that's why contact lenses are a thing (and people don't like wearing those either).

So until the barrier to entry is somewhere around or below wearing a pair of glasses, VR will continue to be a niche thing.
 
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cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Pretty much what Phil Spencer said about VR on Xbox last year too. They're all still working on it - but I think there's a reason we're not hearing about Xbox VR or PSVR2 quite yet.

AR has great potential to be used in real world uses as a tool, less so as a gaming experience.
Especially in training situations (overlays/hud that interact with your hands and give you aditional information -> see iron mans helmet), while VR removes you from your real hands and sorounding.

So even if Apple pushes it, it probably wont be big in gaming (for now, there is future potential, a fully featured pokemon go with mons that interact with th environment...but thats future stuff)
I mean. Maybe. But there's something immensely unique about a character in a crime mystery/narrative game sitting down in YOUR chair or on YOUR couch. Young Conker was derided. But still - 3D platforming on YOUR STUFF. I agree gaming on AR is not the focus now, for sure. But I don't agree that AR is FUNDAMENTALLY not applicable to gaming.

 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
Like, I get it's Jim hedging his bets and I probably shouldn't look too hard into it, but it's hard to not look at this and how seemingly all of the PSVR compatible games getting PS5 versions have the caveat that PSVR support is only available in the PS4 version and not get concerned about the PSVR ecosystem. I really don't want Facebook getting a functional monopoly of VR.
 

tarman76

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,130
I'm trying to sell my PSVR gear if anyone's interested. No takers on the marketplace thread. Lemme know!
 

the-pi-guy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,302
VR simply still isn't ready for prime time. PSVR sold to ~1% of the addressable base and Sony clearly sees that writing on the wall.
Closer to 5%.

3D TVs failed because people didn't like wearing a lightweight pair of glasses. Even people for who it is a medial necessity and a massive QoL improvement don't like wearing glasses, that's why contact lenses are a thing (and people don't like wearing those either).
I don't think any of this quite so simple.

3D glasses are cumbersome because they aren't made to fit over a pair of glasses and they don't add very much to the experience, unlike VR.

Most Americans wear glasses at some point.


So until the barrier to entry is somewhere around or below wearing a pair of glasses, VR will continue to be a niche thing.
With that said, I do agree here.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Pretty much what Phil Spencer said about VR on Xbox last year too. They're all still working on it - but I think there's a reason we're not hearing about Xbox VR or PSVR2 quite yet.


I mean. Maybe. But there's something immensely unique about a character in a crime mystery/narrative game sitting down in YOUR chair or on YOUR couch. Young Conker was derided. But still - 3D platforming on YOUR STUFF. I agree gaming on AR is not the focus now, for sure. But I don't agree that AR is FUNDAMENTALLY not applicable to gaming.


Well, i said " (for now, there is future potential, a fully featured pokemon go with mons that interact with th environment...but thats future stuff) "

Its simple: te tech, engines, and compute power to acurrately interprete the szene is not there for STABLE big scale gaming experiences. It will come one day. Just not today. (Some arcadey stuff was already possible with older smartphones and the 3DS/PS2, but nobody is talking about those, but stuff like you mentioned, and for it to work reliable and on a bigger scale is still not feasable. Wait 5-10 years for better sensors and stronger processors)
 
Sep 13, 2020
90
AR has great potential to be used in real world uses as a tool, less so as a gaming experience.
Especially in training situations (overlays/hud that interact with your hands and give you aditional information -> see iron mans helmet), while VR removes you from your real hands and sorounding.

So even if Apple pushes it, it probably wont be big in gaming (for now, there is future potential, a fully featured pokemon go with mons that interact with th environment...but thats future stuff)
As someone who works in consulting/training field, adoption of AR and VR is a reaaalllly tough sell. The value proposition is the hardest part, while you can make a case that in physical labor situations where safety/liability is certainly easily mitigated by selling a couple oculus kits with a training course preloaded (which we have done successfully) is way less costly than paying an employee's medical bills that uses that dangerous machine wrong, they still put a price on people's heads. And most time's they would rather roll the dice since the serious injury rate is fairly low and already built into their budget. Definitely have to get the right minds in the room that want to innovate.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
As someone who works in consulting/training field, adoption of AR and VR is a reaaalllly tough sell. The value proposition is the hardest part, while you can make a case that in physical labor situations where safety/liability is certainly easily mitigated by selling a couple oculus kits with a training course preloaded (which we have done successfully) is way less costly than paying an employee's medical bills that uses that dangerous machine wrong, they still put a price on people's heads. And most time's they would rather roll the dice since the serious injury rate is fairly low and already built into their budget. Definitely have to get the right minds in the room that want to innovate.
Shure, its definitely not easy. There are a lot of folks that still dont see the benefit.
Worked in the it of a hospital, some doctors have a concrete concept in mind, and are not suceptible to new ideas. The adoptation is slow and not a great sell... but a better are than gaming i would argue (except if you are pokemon, and arguable the AR is really basic there).

A simple use of AR @ home would be the Ikea app. I know a person that works on a simular app. Interest is there (also from the industrie), but its just on the edge of being really convincing. Thats why its good that apple implemented a lydar, and im hoping we move to a situation where it becomes a standard feature on at least higher end phones. With less spezialised hardware that people already know, adaptation will increase, and development tools to make good applications will get better.

By the way: it can also be used to make 3d models, that can then be used for other stuff. Making a 3d scan is expensive, with AR tech it could become handy that everybody gets a scanner in his pocket.
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,368
Your average gamer doesn't have time for anything else than mobile gachas or FIFA Ultimate Team, so I guess everything else should just shut down.
Where did I say shut it down?

It does impact development prioritization and adoption though. At the height of VR hype (it's fallen by the wayside in terms of mainstream appeal) PSVR still only sold to 1% of the playstation ecosystem.

3DTV which had a much lower barrier for entry died a pretty swift death because of lack of appeal and content.

I'm not arguing that VR won't continue or have a place in gaming but it'll likely end up being a tech that has a relatively limited catalog of dedicated games and bit part support in mainstream games. It's like the Jet Ski of the gaming world, fun to use but ultimately it's more fun for your friends who have no intention of ever buying one.
 

score01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,709
i'm actualy quite... ok.. with this?

They need to concentrate and nail everything to do with PS5 before introducing next gen VR. I cant help but feel that VR got them to take their eye off the ball a bit with PS4.
 
Sep 13, 2020
90
Shure, its definitely not easy. There are a lot of folks that still dont see the benefit.
Worked in the it of a hospital, some doctors have a concrete concept in mind, and are not suceptible to new ideas. The adoptation is slow and not a great sell... but a better are than gaming i would argue (except if you are pokemon, and arguable the AR is really basic there).

A simple use of AR @ home would be the Ikea app. I know a person that works on a simular app. Interest is there (also from the industrie), but its just on the edge of being really convincing. Thats why its good that apple implemented a lydar, and im hoping we move to a situation where it becomes a standard feature on at least higher end phones. With less spezialised hardware that people already know, adaptation will increase, and development tools to make good applications will get better.

By the way: it can also be used to make 3d models, that can then be used for other stuff. Making a 3d scan is expensive, with AR tech it could become handy that everybody gets a scanner in his pocket.
I mean, I think the advantage gaming has over commercial space is that the gaming/tech community loves to get a hot new thing even if the cost is less than ideal. The space I really enjoy working in though is gamifying training experiences. In some companies, especially in the health/pharma tech industry, employees love to compete against one another so we can make some cool experiences that way. Even for employee engagement and wellness. In the before times (before covid) and staff were working on large campuses, you could make an AR experience that mixes up getting employees away from their desk to visit "landmarks" around campus, which gets them up and out, taking short breaks. Then you tie in continuing education opportunities in their field/position to those landmarks and now they learned something, took a break, and had fun trying to beat their peers at an activity.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Jim will say whatever is best for profits, that's all it is, and right now he is preparing to launch the PS5 and obviously does not want to focus on VR and have some mixed messaging. It would be totally different if Spiderman and Demon's Souls has VR support but they don't. This is why he's leaving VR open at the moment while not focsuing on it. I expect in 2022 we will hear again about VR and new hardware.
 
Oct 29, 2017
810
Sounds like the reason MS or even Nintendo are jot big players in that space just yet. Its nice to have and I love my oculus so its kind of weird hearing this
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,690
Cape Cod, MA
Honestly, I didn't expect PSVR2 until 2022. If it was close, I don't think they'd be doing as much to let people know PSVR will continue to be supported on PS5.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Well, i said " (for now, there is future potential, a fully featured pokemon go with mons that interact with th environment...but thats future stuff) "

Its simple: te tech, engines, and compute power to acurrately interprete the szene is not there for STABLE big scale gaming experiences. It will come one day. Just not today. (Some arcadey stuff was already possible with older smartphones and the 3DS/PS2, but nobody is talking about those, but stuff like you mentioned, and for it to work reliable and on a bigger scale is still not feasable. Wait 5-10 years for better sensors and stronger processors)
I think you're mistaken. Phone AR is a bit janky still, but you're MASSIVELY underestimating the technology if you think that we still lack the power to accurately interpret visual data and map things onto that. Consider the lowly snapchat AR filter - performant, surprisingly advanced spatial understanding and vision-based tracking, easily used and quite effective. Consider, again, that the FIRST Hololens games were able to interpret your sofa, your chair, your table, your floor, your walls - and then literally play in, with, and among them.

Heck, HoloLens (again 1.0) could already remember the spatial map of your entire house and remember where you put holograms and apps floating or pinned to your walls. Life sized characters having conversations sitting in your chair or around your table. Alien bugs bursting out of your walls. It's not even just room-scale - it was entire building scale. You could walk around or even go outside freely in ways that just aren't feasible with a VR headset on, even with passthrough.

Your pokemon game wasn't just possible back then. It was actively being worked on (well, more like a YuGiOh duel disk game). And it worked, if a bit unpolished. It was stable, it was immersive, it looked pretty good. And that was almost 5 years ago.

I truly believe that we have had the technology for full-potential AR gaming for years. We just haven't had the accessibility, the support, and ultimately the players to justify pursuing it.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,955
I've always been of the opinion that the display technology for VR is many years ahead of the input mechanisms for VR.
 

Mutedpenguin

Member
Dec 5, 2017
1,176
Like, I get it's Jim hedging his bets and I probably shouldn't look too hard into it, but it's hard to not look at this and how seemingly all of the PSVR compatible games getting PS5 versions have the caveat that PSVR support is only available in the PS4 version and not get concerned about the PSVR ecosystem. I really don't want Facebook getting a functional monopoly of VR.
It's all very weird. They really need to give us some clarity (should have done months ago).

The thing I don't get is, if they were backing out of next gen VR and not doing a new headset, why not allow further support for the current one?

I mean, there's no obvious reason why the new PS5 camera couldn't track the move controllers/dual shocks..rather than specifically requiring the old camera(hell, you'd think Sony would be happy to force you to buy a new one). There's no obvious reason to stop PS5 games having VR modes for the current headset. It seems weirdly deliberate and limiting.

Then there was this from media molecule-



So either they aren't able to answer because they don't know..or they aren't allowed to answer.
 
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InspectorJones

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,627
I've always been of the opinion that the display technology for VR is many years ahead of the input mechanisms for VR.

The knuckles controllers are an amazing start! I've been able to test out both the original launch Occulus and the Vive; but the knuckles controllers feel so natural in titles that support them.

VR and AR are definitely going to take off at some point I feel; I don't mind being an early adopter until then.
 

AllBusinessJr

Member
Oct 27, 2017
399
It's all very weird. They really need to give us some clarity (should have done months ago).

The thing I don't get is, if they were backing out of next gen VR and not doing a new headset, why not allow further support for the current one?

I mean, there's no obvious reason why the new PS5 camera couldn't track the move controllers/dual shocks..rather than specifically requiring the old camera. There's no obvious reason to stop PS5 games having VR modes for the current headset. It seems weirdly deliberate and limiting.

Then there was this from media molecule-



So either they aren't able to answer because they don't..or they aren't allowed to answer.


This is definitely disappointing, but not that surprising given Sony's choice to drip-feed PS5 info. I hope that PSVR isn't being quietly buried and/or relegated to EOL status, but apart from the camera connector, they've been particularly silent. If PSVR support is basically ending in the near term, I'd like to know, as I will probably sell my headset.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
I mean, I think the advantage gaming has over commercial space is that the gaming/tech community loves to get a hot new thing even if the cost is less than ideal. The space I really enjoy working in though is gamifying training experiences. In some companies, especially in the health/pharma tech industry, employees love to compete against one another so we can make some cool experiences that way. Even for employee engagement and wellness. In the before times (before covid) and staff were working on large campuses, you could make an AR experience that mixes up getting employees away from their desk to visit "landmarks" around campus, which gets them up and out, taking short breaks. Then you tie in continuing education opportunities in their field/position to those landmarks and now they learned something, took a break, and had fun trying to beat their peers at an activity.
Shure, that IS a bonus over the comercial space.
This all sounds great, and is what i expect to be adapter in a wider field in the future.

I think you're mistaken. Phone AR is a bit janky still, but you're MASSIVELY underestimating the technology if you think that we still lack the power to accurately interpret visual data and map things onto that. Consider the lowly snapchat AR filter - performant, surprisingly advanced spatial understanding and vision-based tracking, easily used and quite effective. Consider, again, that the FIRST Hololens games were able to interpret your sofa, your chair, your table, your floor, your walls - and then literally play in, with, and among them.

Heck, HoloLens (again 1.0) could already remember the spatial map of your entire house and remember where you put holograms and apps floating or pinned to your walls. Life sized characters having conversations sitting in your chair or around your table. Alien bugs bursting out of your walls. It's not even just room-scale - it was entire building scale. You could walk around or even go outside freely in ways that just aren't feasible with a VR headset on, even with passthrough.

Your pokemon game wasn't just possible back then. It was actively being worked on (well, more like a YuGiOh duel disk game). And it worked, if a bit unpolished. It was stable, it was immersive, it looked pretty good. And that was almost 5 years ago.

I truly believe that we have had the technology for full-potential AR gaming for years. We just haven't had the accessibility, the support, and ultimately the players to justify pursuing it.
I know all of those. But is it in a phone?
There is not inscentive enough to create a new platform for gaming, people dont need a hololense, so they wont have it, and AR gamign is a new paradigm, you cant just produce big budget AR games, it will take its time to develop them, like it tool VR some time, or 3D. And in that time it will be a niche.

What im talking is a mass aplication, where every phone can do that. I dont doubt that the hololense is capable of, but the hololense itself is tousands of dolars. We need to get that to a view hundreds. Nobody will invest in expensive game development, for the view tousand people that would buy a headset for 1k+$.

I would love to have a hololense, and am interested in this tech (would like to have my master thesis with this), but im of mo ilusion that this is still not where it need to be for mass market applikation.