Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Reading all of that, I really have to point again to that "replace them with random people from the street" idea. If the best thing you can say about a producer is "he let's the smart people do their stuff", then why even have the position
God I wish someone at Paramount actually understood and cared about this franchise, even a little bit
Because movies and TV don't just make themselves. Paramount/CBS might want Star Trek, but who is going to make it for them? Writers might be able to write scripts, but making TV and movies is much more involved than that. Who hires the writers? Who gives direction to the writers?

JJ Abrams supposedly became friends with Kurtzman and Orci on the set of Alias, so JJ taught them how a show is put together. He taught them the basics of how to "produce". And now, sometimes K&O write, and sometimes they produce. When K&O produce, their track record is shockingly better than their writing track record.

Many producers don't have a background in writing, so when they boss the writers around (which is part of their job) the writing suffers. K&O do have a background in writing (even if their writing's not so good), so when they boss the writers around, they're better able to know when to back off, or when to have a light touch, or how to contribute something that is actually helpful and not counterproductive. Which lends to the rumor that when K&O produce, they're popular with the writers on the production.

K&O (after writing Michael Bay's dogshit Transformers 2) produced Transformers Prime, which is debatably the best Transformers cartoon ever. When they stepped down as producers and walked away, the show was cancelled. When it came back to life, it was a hollow shell of it's former self, barely worth anything. Producing is a real job, requiring real effort, and Kurtzman seems to be good at it.

It's like, John Wick was directed by a stuntman, which is why all the stunts in those movies are great. The director isn't doing any of the stunts, but he understands stunts, so his relationship with the stuntmen on the set is great, and it shows.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
Orci seems to be out, because Kurtzman and Orci apparently broke up after a fight about which one of the two was responsible for their bigger failures. Orci was also the 9/11 truther of the duo, so Kurtzman seems to be the superior one.

Kurtzman and Orci appear to be mediocre writers, but they are theorized to be capable and well-liked producers, because they allow the writers to do their jobs and write.

Kurtzman was supposedly only in the Star Trek Discovery producer's room as insurance, because Paramount liked JJ's Star Trek movies (which Kurtzman had been attached to), but then the producer's room imploded with allegations of physical and mental abuse, because everyone except Kurtzman was a terrible producer who was taken off the project one way or another, and Kurtzman was left holding the bag. Apparently the entire reason Star Trek Discovery continues to exist at all is because Kurtzman is a very talented producer who managed to keep the entire show running (and debatably helped it become even better) after a catastrophic implosion. Kurtzman wasn't supposed to be involved. He stepped up because they needed him.

Complaints about Discovery come down to "Kurtzman isn't writing the show, he's letting the writers write it, and writers don't always produce 100% gold, not even when they've been liberated by someone like Kurtzman."

The green-lighting of the Picard Show is apparently 100% thanks to Kurtzman's producing skills. Previous writers had said that Paramount was entirely disinterested in TNG. Kurtzman convinced Paramount that TNG was something worth going back to.

Kurtzman's position with Star Trek is basically the same as the one that Rick Berman once held, and fans always had an antagonistic relationship with Rick Berman.
Not really accurate at all. There was never some feud between Orci and Kurtzman about failures or w/e. That sounds like baseless fan speculation. Orci fell out of the picture because he's had problems with alcohol, which is unfortunate since he's such a great guy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Just would have rather he said nothing about it. I mean on it's own the reveal was hilariously pointless and pratically assumes you know who that character is and what importance he holds in the previous Star Trek. But that fact that he lied so you were led to believe that wouldn't happen so that reveal would still "shock" you is dishonest. It's cheap subversion by literally treating your audience like they're morons.
He was asked.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Not really accurate at all. There was never some feud between Orci and Kurtzman about failures or w/e. That sounds like baseless fan speculation. Orci fell out of the picture because he's had problems with alcohol, which is unfortunate since he's such a great guy.
It might be baseless speculation, but IIRC, Star Trek Into Darkness had just come out, and it was being savaged by the fans. Like, I remember K&O were apparently at a Star Trek convention and they got booed, and supposedly that cut deep because K&O were/are big Star Trek fans, and they liked engaging with the fans. But STID was mostly Orci's work, so Kurtzman was taking flak for things he had little to do with.

And then they did Amazing Spiderman 2, and that was mostly Kurtzman, so the shoe was on the other foot.

And that was where they decided that maybe they should stop sharing credit all the time, and stop owning each other's mistakes.

Orci (not K&O) did Star Trek Beyond, while Kurtzman (not K&O) was set to do ASM3, until Sony canned that movie and made the deal to loan Spidey to the MCU.

I assume K&O tried to stay friends, but they just kind of needed a break from each other.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
It might be baseless speculation, but IIRC, Star Trek Into Darkness had just come out, and it was being savaged by the fans. Like, I remember K&O were apparently at a Star Trek convention and they got booed, and supposedly that cut deep because K&O were/are big Star Trek fans, and they liked engaging with the fans. But STID was mostly Orci's work, so Kurtzman was taking flak for things he had little to do with.

And then they did Amazing Spiderman 2, and that was mostly Kurtzman, so the shoe was on the other foot.

And that was where they decided that maybe they should stop sharing credit all the time, and stop owning each other's mistakes.

Orci (not K&O) did Star Trek Beyond, while Kurtzman (not K&O) was set to do ASM3, until Sony canned that movie and made the deal to loan Spidey to the MCU.

I assume K&O tried to stay friends, but they just kind of needed a break from each other.
Yeah, none of that is accurate. There was no falling out. You're just reading into things based on credits. Like I said in my last post, the main thing is Orci has had a nasty battle with alcoholism, that's why Kurtzman is doing stuff on his own now (and why Orci hasn't done much the last few years). It's also why Orci didn't direct Beyond. IIRC, Kurtzman wanted to do Spider-Man and Orci wasn't very interested in doing that at that time (because he was going to direct Beyond), so that caused that particular divergence. But it wasn't meant to be some permanent split. These are still two individuals we are talking about, not one entity.

It should be plain to see that toxic fans at some convention didn't put Kurtzman off from continuing to participate in the Star Trek franchise.