Nov 2, 2017
3,723
Another great video essay from Just Write regarding the divisiveness of "The Last Jedi":



Like a lot people, I thought it was a bad movie when I saw it in the theaters. Not because it pissed on my fanboy sensibilities or because I had problems with its narrative structure or anything like that (to be open about this, though, I think the 'Star Wars' franchise in general is largely little more than bad movies). I was largely disappointed because I thought the swirling notions of the film being "subversive" and "divisive" were laughable upon release, because I ultimately felt that any of the teases at subversion there might have been were ultimately subverted by the end of the film. This is still ultimately true on a macro-narrative scale - it's still a binary Good vs. Evil saga without interesting boundaries in terms of who's who - but upon my second viewing, I had much more appreciation for the micro-deconstructions on a character level - namely Luke's legacy and the how of it, Snoke's diminution, and Rey's parentage.

In the video that precedes this one, Just Write makes an argument about how ultimately TLJ isn't the film fans wanted, but ultimately needed:



...And that's how I essentially felt about TLJ after the second viewing. I'm at the point that maybe this franchise needs to shed a good deal of its fanbase if it wants to grow into something great again. It has to be a voice for a new generation of viewers if it wants to maintain its prominent cultural relevance for as long as possible. It won't do that by giving nostalgic addicts constant re-ups of the same story beats, characters and themes over, and over, and over again.
 
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ASleepingMonkey

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,499
Iowa
I just wrote a piece I'm pretty proud of about how people are misinterpreting bad writing and intentionally flawed characters when it comes to Luke in TLJ. I think the rules prevent me from linking it here (correct me if I'm wrong) but to sum it up, Luke has an arc and people dismiss that he does the most Jedi thing possible at the end by saving the day in a pacifist way.

You don't have to like the movie but I think if you're going to criticize it right, we should be more careful with our criticims and form thoughts instead of just going with our knee jerk reaction.

Had to fight a lot of fanboys on Twitter about that.
 
OP
OP
Hobbesian Thudercat
Nov 2, 2017
3,723
I just wrote a piece I'm pretty proud of about how people are misinterpreting bad writing and intentionally flawed characters when it comes to Luke in TLJ. I think the rules prevent me from linking it here (correct me if I'm wrong) but to sum it up, Luke has an arc and people dismiss that he does the most Jedi thing possible at the end by saving the day in a pacifist way.

You don't have to like the movie but I think if you're going to criticize it right, we should be more careful with our criticims and form thoughts instead of just going with our knee jerk reaction.

Had to fight a lot of fanboys on Twitter about that.

Yeah. The Luke arc was pretty much the reflective surface I needed to understand what the film was attempting to do. Going into the theater experience, I was totally ready to see Luke finally kick some ass after waiting all these years, and was thoroughly upset I didn't get to see that. But watching the film again, at home, with subdued expectations is what it took for me to recognize that I was missing the point. This was much more interesting.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,284
I just saw it again a few days ago. My opinion hasn't changed too much.

I appreciate the themes of the movie. I didn't like the execution but I understood it.

I think my biggest peeve about the movie is the relay race style of writing it has going for it.
 

ASleepingMonkey

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,499
Iowa
Yeah. The Luke arc was pretty much the reflective surface I needed to understand what the film was attempting to do. Going into the theater experience, I was totally ready to see Luke finally kick some ass after waiting all these years, and was thoroughly upset I didn't get to see that. But watching the film again, at home, with subdued expectations is what it took for me to recognize that I was missing the point. This was much more interesting.
I went in with that expectation. I left disappointed we didn't see it and part of me still wants to see that, took me a few days to actually realize what they were trying to say with him as I pondered over it.

It's a movie where I feel people only look at it at a very surface level which I both understand and find ironic. They're big blockbusters that people expect to sit back and just watch cool stuff happen. On the other hand, people pick apart these movies to death to find references and speculate about the future but what I find many won't do is actually break it down on a meaningful storytelling level and truly analyze the core of it and the writing and so on.

There are people and outlets that do this but they seem to be a minority to me.
 

AtmaPhoenix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,005
The Internet
Yeah. The Luke arc was pretty much the reflective surface I needed to understand what the film was attempting to do. Going into the theater experience, I was totally ready to see Luke finally kick some ass after waiting all these years, and was thoroughly upset I didn't get to see that. But watching the film again, at home, with subdued expectations is what it took for me to recognize that I was missing the point. This was much more interesting.

I remember back when Attack of the Clones came out, a lot of fans of Star Wars got stupid excited over the Yoda vs Dooku fight because everyone wanted to see Yoda do kick-ass Jedi fighting. And I remember watching it and thinking how stupid it was for him to suddenly be flipping around and doing cartwheels and stuff, and how it didn't flow with my interpretation of Yoda and the Jedi. And maybe that's why I enjoyed TLJ so much because I didn't go in expecting Luke to kick ass and in fact didn't want that, because I felt like it would be another Yoda moment. But a lot of fans enjoyed Yoda's fights and the same group probably wanted a badass Punished Luke which is one of many reasons the movie became divisive.
 
OP
OP
Hobbesian Thudercat
Nov 2, 2017
3,723
I went in with that expectation. I left disappointed we didn't see it and part of me still wants to see that, took me a few days to actually realize what they were trying to say with him as I pondered over it.

It's a movie where I feel people only look at it at a very surface level which I both understand and find ironic. They're big blockbusters that people expect to sit back and just watch cool stuff happen. On the other hand, people pick apart these movies to death to find references and speculate about the future but what I find many won't do is actually break it down on a meaningful storytelling level and truly analyze the core of it and the writing and so on.

There are people and outlets that do this but they seem to be a minority to me.

I think, at least within the nerd culture spectrum, many do this. Or at the very least, they interpret/internalize the criticisms of others they respect on the web and such. I think detractors just often dismiss what they find as not what they wanted from the work, or lacking in meaning in some way to help justify their disappointment with the final product. Check the post above yours.
The Honest Trailers/Cinemasins school of criticism in a nutshell.

Hmmm.... yeah.

I remember back when Attack of the Clones came out, a lot of fans of Star Wars got stupid excited over the Yoda vs Dooku fight because everyone wanted to see Yoda do kick-ass Jedi fighting. And I remember watching it and thinking how stupid it was for him to suddenly be flipping around and doing cartwheels and stuff, and how it didn't flow with my interpretation of Yoda and the Jedi. And maybe that's why I enjoyed TLJ so much because I didn't go in expecting Luke to kick ass and in fact didn't want that, because I felt like it would be another Yoda moment. But a lot of fans enjoyed Yoda's fights and the same group probably wanted a badass Punished Luke which is one of many reasons the movie became divisive.

Yeah. Younger me loved that scene and I saw it as the sole highlight in the film. Today, I'm more inclined to agree with you.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,161
There was a single comment in that video that stood out to me "By this logic people who don't like star wars in general should like this movie more than anyone"

I don't know about other people, but personally I never really embraced the big deal about the Star Wars franchise and I thought TLJ was okayish to good because the themes were more 'gray' in nature.

So maybe there is something to this.
 

Alethiometer

alt account
Banned
May 29, 2018
1,044
There was a single comment in that video that stood out to me "By this logic people who don't like star wars in general should like this movie more than anyone"

I don't know about other people, but personally I never really embraced the big deal about the Star Wars franchise and I thought TLJ was okayish to good because the themes were more 'gray' in nature.

So maybe there is something to this.
I don't really care for SW and thought TLJ was one of the dullest movies I've seen in a long time.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,284
There was a single comment in that video that stood out to me "By this logic people who don't like star wars in general should like this movie more than anyone"

I don't know about other people, but personally I never really embraced the big deal about the Star Wars franchise and I thought TLJ was okayish to good because the themes were more 'gray' in nature.

So maybe there is something to this.

Yeah my wife is not into SW at all. Just had her run through the movies a few years ago.

She liked the movie (aside from Finn and Rose) and asked why were geeks so upset about it. After telling her, she just rolled her eyes.
 

ASleepingMonkey

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,499
Iowa
There was a single comment in that video that stood out to me "By this logic people who don't like star wars in general should like this movie more than anyone"

I don't know about other people, but personally I never really embraced the big deal about the Star Wars franchise and I thought TLJ was okayish to good because the themes were more 'gray' in nature.

So maybe there is something to this.
I totally think this is true. I don't know if that guy was being sarcastic to be a dick or something but lots of people I know who aren't huge on Star Wars loved TLJ for this reason.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,753
As time passes and people get over their fanboy desires for badass Luke this film will continue to grow and grow in reputation.

In a decades time the consensus will be it is up there with A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back as one of the gold standard films of the franchise, I am very confident in this. TLJ was not the film fanboys wanted or hoped for, but it was the film Star Wars needed. Star Wars to live for decades to come had to break free of OT nostalgia and Luke fanboy obsessions.

Luke can't be Goku, Star Wars can't be Dragon Ball Super and just be familiar and comfortable and lean on the past and survive for 30-40+ more years. TLJ is what we needed, what Star Wars needed. And was a beautiful incredibly made piece of blockbuster cine,a.
 

show me your skeleton

#1 Bugsnax Fan
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,666
skeleton land
I remember back when Attack of the Clones came out, a lot of fans of Star Wars got stupid excited over the Yoda vs Dooku fight because everyone wanted to see Yoda do kick-ass Jedi fighting. And I remember watching it and thinking how stupid it was for him to suddenly be flipping around and doing cartwheels and stuff, and how it didn't flow with my interpretation of Yoda and the Jedi. And maybe that's why I enjoyed TLJ so much because I didn't go in expecting Luke to kick ass and in fact didn't want that, because I felt like it would be another Yoda moment. But a lot of fans enjoyed Yoda's fights and the same group probably wanted a badass Punished Luke which is one of many reasons the movie became divisive.
and this 'man jedi are so cool and powerful' thing is really strange considering the original films are so subdued in their choreography.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
In a decades time the consensus will be it is up there with A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back as one of the gold standard films of the franchise

Or... it'll remain divisive and regarded as a highly flawed episode in an aimless trilogy. Comparing it to the originals is laughable.
 

Deleted member 22422

User requested account closure
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253
As time passes and people get over their fanboy desires for badass Luke this film will continue to grow and grow in reputation.

In a decades time the consensus will be it is up there with A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back as one of the gold standard films of the franchise, I am very confident in this.

And maybe all the embarrassing jokes will be funny in the future!
 

Laserdisk

Banned
May 11, 2018
8,942
UK
I just wrote a piece I'm pretty proud of about how people are misinterpreting bad writing and intentionally flawed characters when it comes to Luke in TLJ. I think the rules prevent me from linking it here (correct me if I'm wrong) but to sum it up, Luke has an arc and people dismiss that he does the most Jedi thing possible at the end by saving the day in a pacifist way.

You don't have to like the movie but I think if you're going to criticize it right, we should be more careful with our criticims and form thoughts instead of just going with our knee jerk reaction.

Had to fight a lot of fanboys on Twitter about that.
I like you.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Or... it'll remain divisive and regarded as a highly flawed episode in an aimless trilogy. Comparing it to the originals is laughable.
Go to any Star Wars forum where they do film rankings. A hell of a lot of people put it over ANH and ROTJ. So calling it laughable when a huge chunk of the fanbase thinks its better than some films in the OT just doesn't make sense to me. Not everyone has the same opinion. For a large chunk of this fanbase, TLJ is indeed up there with ESB already. Others, it obviously isn't. But dismissing and calling it laughable that a lot of the Star Wars fanbase loves TLJ isn't necessary.
 

Panic Freak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,590
I just wrote a piece I'm pretty proud of about how people are misinterpreting bad writing and intentionally flawed characters when it comes to Luke in TLJ. I think the rules prevent me from linking it here (correct me if I'm wrong) but to sum it up, Luke has an arc and people dismiss that he does the most Jedi thing possible at the end by saving the day in a pacifist way.

You don't have to like the movie but I think if you're going to criticize it right, we should be more careful with our criticims and form thoughts instead of just going with our knee jerk reaction.

Had to fight a lot of fanboys on Twitter about that.

I love Luke's arch in the last Jedi. I hated the Princess Leia flying back from space. It was the most face palm thing ever.
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
As time passes and people get over their fanboy desires for badass Luke this film will continue to grow and grow in reputation.

In a decades time the consensus will be it is up there with A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back as one of the gold standard films of the franchise, I am very confident in this. TLJ was not the film fanboys wanted or hoped for, but it was the film Star Wars needed. Star Wars to live for decades to come had to break free of OT nostalgia and Luke fanboy obsessions.

Luke can't be Goku, Star Wars can't be Dragon Ball Super and just be familiar and comfortable and lean on the past and survive for 30-40+ more years. TLJ is what we needed, what Star Wars needed. And was a beautiful incredibly made piece of blockbuster cine,a.
I doubt tlj will grow in reputation. Even without some of the divisive stuff, the movie was still very boring. Nothing really happened. Finns storyline was pointless. The whole movie involved a slow chase in space that resulted in not mattering. I feel like force awakens set up the new trilogy well and then tlj just plodded along and didn't move the story forward. Now we have one film left to finish a trilogy. I think we'll look back at this trilogy as a wasted opportunity, primarily due to the failings of tlj
 

Deleted member 11039

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Oct 27, 2017
2,109
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
I personally thought the movie was good by itself but when viewed as a middle chapter of a trilogy falls apart. It just has this relay race feel to it when paired with the force awakens. Theres no flow between them, the force awakens sets up a bunch of mysteries and the last jedi just gets rid of them. It feels like Rian Johnson just didnt like what JJ was doing and was trying to correct things, which is fine by itself but it feels like the trilogy is "arguing" with itself. And as a result there's not a lot of interesting things to look forward to in episode 9.
 

Aftermath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,756
Isn't it great that we don't all like the same things? If we did life would be boring, I'm still in for Episode 9 & everything after, I don't feel that just because I don't like 1 Movie, that I am not allowed to like more in the future.

I am still very much looking forward to seeing what Rian Johnson does in the Future with his seperate Star Wars Trilogy despite not liking TLJ, well well imagine that haters.

Too bad that some asshats who hated it decided to get nasty and Vile about it instead of just saying they hated it and not watching it, I cannot associate with said Asshats even though I disliked TLJ because I don't feel a bitter hatred towards the people behind the Movie.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
We shouldn't underestimate how much of the backlash was gut reactions from fans who didn't get to watch Luke kick ass in crazy cinematic fight scenes like we were all expecting.

His actual arc was better for the character and probably the most Jedi course he could have taken. I was legit impressed that Rian Johnson had the balls to make Luke defy blockbuster convention and behave like a damaged and mature human being who ultimately wins at life and humbly comes into greatness. Not by acting like a superhero in a movie, but by having the moral fiber and inner strength to accept his failings and confront his fears, and finally leave a worthy legacy for the next generation to build upon.

TLJ has great writing. It's revealing to watch people let their emotions hijack all higher functioning as they spew every baseless accusation and argument their brains can generate in a frenzy of rationalization. They should try being honest with themselves instead. TLJ is the movie they didn't want. It didn't meet their expectations because it didn't conform to the predictable beats they wanted to see.

That's bad filmmaking only if good filmmaking means staying beholden to the hardcore audience's wishes. As opposed to developing themes in a cohesive and nuanced manner--themes that fit the overall thrust of the series and the character arcs that comprise much of the story.

People wanted the same Luke who saw himself corrupted by the dark side in the Dagobah cave, the Luke who was horrified at how close he came to killing his father in the grip of a righteous rage, start solving the galaxy's problems with the immense power at his command. Well, that's not the Luke of RotJ. That's not the destiny of Luke Skywalker, student of Yoda, Jedi Master.
 
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Comfortable

Member
Oct 25, 2017
90
I just wrote a piece I'm pretty proud of about how people are misinterpreting bad writing and intentionally flawed characters when it comes to Luke in TLJ. I think the rules prevent me from linking it here (correct me if I'm wrong) but to sum it up, Luke has an arc and people dismiss that he does the most Jedi thing possible at the end by saving the day in a pacifist way.

This is true, and follows from how he won in RotJ ("I am a Jedi, like my father before me" is accompanied by throwing away his weapon). I will be extremely disappointed if Rey ends up saving the galaxy through violence in episode 9.
 

takriel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,221
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.
It's a posteriori reasoning.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.
Nah, I was someone who wishes TFA was more original and stood on its own more. TLJ accomplished that in spades.
 

ASleepingMonkey

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,499
Iowa
This is true, and follows from how he won in RotJ ("I am a Jedi, like my father before me" is accompanied by throwing away his weapon). I will be extremely disappointed if Rey ends up saving the galaxy through violence in episode 9.
She probably will and that's the fundamental issue with this trilogy. There's no vision. It's been a passing of a baton with each movie with no overall plan being set so the way one person does their movie may not be the way prior director saw it going, hence why so many people felt TLJ was so jarring.

I've loved each movie but they feel very messy in terms of consistency and I worry that Ep. 9 is going to suffer the most from this even though Abrams is back. Only time will tell, it's going to be a VERY interesting movie.
We shouldn't underestimate how much of the backlash was gut reactions from fans who didn't get to watch Luke kick ass in crazy cinematic fight scenes like we were all expecting.

His actual arc was better for the character and probably the most Jedi course he could have taken. I was legit impressed that Rian Johnson had the balls to make Luke defy blockbuster convention and behave like a damaged and mature human being who ultimately wins at life and humbly comes into greatness. Not by acting like a superhero in a movie, but by having the moral fiber and inner strength to accept his failings and confront his fears, and finally leave a worthy legacy for the next generation to build upon.

TLJ has great writing. It's revealing to watch people let their emotions hijack all higher functioning as they spew every baseless accusation and argument their brains can generate in a frenzy of rationalization. They should try being honest with themselves instead. TLJ is the movie they didn't want. It didn't meet their expectations because it didn't conform to the predictable beats they wanted to see.

That's bad filmmaking only if good filmmaking means staying beholden to the hardcore audience's wishes. As opposed to developing themes in a cohesive and nuanced manner--themes that fit the overall thrust of the series and the character arcs that comprise much of the story.
Bingo!!!!
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.
Agreed. How about telling a story that satisfies everyone, including fanboys, in one movie instead of thinking of a dozen future movies. I have no plans to wait for more Star Wars movies to give me what I want. I'll watch Episode IX but that's it. Killing Luke broke me. I liked everything they did with Luke, except that. It is irrevocable.

Art is enjoyable. But the most obnoxious thing art can do is eschew things I enjoy for things I "need". The idea that I "needed" one of the greatest fiction characters of our time to die is obnoxious. There's no grand thematic need for it. Lucasfilm wants to make a dozen more movies. Even fanboys here will insist it was done "for the future of the franchise!" and not because the story needed it.
 

Laserdisk

Banned
May 11, 2018
8,942
UK
Isn't it great that we don't all like the same things? If we did life would be boring, I'm still in for Episode 9 & everything after, I don't feel that just because I don't like 1 Movie, that I am not allowed to like more in the future.

I am still very much looking forward to seeing what Rian Johnson does in the Future with his seperate Star Wars Trilogy despite not liking TLJ, well well imagine that haters.

Too bad that some asshats who hated it decided to get nasty and Vile about it instead of just saying they hated it and not watching it, I cannot associate with said Asshats even though I disliked TLJ because I don't feel a bitter hatred towards the people behind the Movie.
Not liking the same things is fine and wonderful.
This is not that situation sadly.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
I think RJ's decision to make Luke's absence in TFA be based on character/personal reasons rather than a contrived plot reasons is hugely more fulfilling and meaningful. It would have been so lame if Luke disappeared for years hoping to discover some "ancient secret" of the Force or some contrived fanfic nonsense like that.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
That's bad filmmaking only if good filmmaking means staying beholden to the hardcore audience's wishes. As opposed to developing themes in a cohesive and nuanced manner--themes that fit the overall thrust of the series and the character arcs that comprise much of the story.

Those aren't mutually exclusive...
 

Laserdisk

Banned
May 11, 2018
8,942
UK
We cannot argue as it's 2018 and this happens:
20180701_150716.jpg

Oh cool, film 4 is showing True Lies!

20180701_150740.jpg


These are the people you are trying to have a decent conversation with.
 

Hero_of_the_Day

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
17,473
I love seeing the people who like this movie explain why I must not like it.

  • I was fine with Luke not having a big action scene (though I could have done without his CGI Matrix slide)
  • Rey being a nobody was the right fucking call
  • I didn't need a backstory for Snoke

I still thought the movie sucked. No head-cannon required.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Agreed. How about telling a story that satisfies everyone, including fanboys, in one movie
How is that possible? Angry fanboys often say they wanted badass hero Luke. I would have hated that, turning Luke into Goku would be so damn boring.

The angry fanboy wishlist for TLJ sounds like boring shonen anime to me.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,596
It's art. People will have different reactions to it. It's not that hard to grasp. As long as RJ was genuine in achieving his storytelling goals then that's all that really matters. I don't love every masterpiece painting out there and a lot of people hate stuff that I love for example.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,606
If it wasnt Star Wars this level of analysis and rationalizing around a bad movie wouldnt be happening

A good metaphor for it is BBB8 riding that corpse of an AT-ST: it would be funny if he wasnt hurting people, and even then it wouldnt be funny
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Those aren't mutually exclusive...
Sure but in this case Luke's arc is made extra powerful by the way things could have gone. I never would have thought I'd see a mainstream Star Wars film take an iconoclastic stance and critique not only the series' own moral simplifications but the flaws ingrained in the whole idea of mythical heroes--with nothing less than the Luke Skywalker serving as an object lesson for the virtues of failure.

That vaults the movie from fleeting entertainment to the more durable class of cinema that has something important to say. Which I realize isn't what a lot of people asked for, but like or not, you now have a potentially enduring work of art on your hands.
 
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Cipher Peon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,909
Yeah. The Luke arc was pretty much the reflective surface I needed to understand what the film was attempting to do. Going into the theater experience, I was totally ready to see Luke finally kick some ass after waiting all these years, and was thoroughly upset I didn't get to see that. But watching the film again, at home, with subdued expectations is what it took for me to recognize that I was missing the point. This was much more interesting.
I find this mindset to completely escape me.

I thought it was extraordinarily obvious that Luke would be a weird space hobo and hated that in TLJ he was exactly as I expected him. Everything in the series sets this as the only possible outcome for him.

Which is exactly why I loathe his character in TLJ. I thought he was awful because he was withdrawn...not because he wasn't a badass Jedi, but because I had assumed he would be withdrawn and cynical and they just went with the most obvious choice. In fact, I'd prefer that he was a one dimensional badass Jedi, because at least that would have surprised me. Literally anything else but the boring low hanging fruit.
 

Cipher Peon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,909
How is that possible? Angry fanboys often say they wanted badass hero Luke. I would have hated that, turning Luke into Goku would be so damn boring.

The angry fanboy wishlist for TLJ sounds like boring shonen anime to me.
I agree it would have been impossible. What I wanted was to see Kylo Ren personally kill Luke and Leia and for Luke to be anything BUT a space hermit, so there was no way that it would have satisfied me.
 

Galactor

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
619
luke being a grumpy man and his actions are up for debate

Finns mission being a whole of nothing was acceptable for an episodic TV series but not for an epic movie where you have to make every action count.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Sure but in this case Luke's arc is made extra powerful by the way things could have gone. I never would have thought I'd see a mainstream Star Wars film take an iconoclastic stance and critique not only the series' own moral simplifications but the flaws ingrained in the whole idea of mythical heroes--with nothing less than the Luke Skywalker serving as an object lesson for the virtues of failure.

I don't come to Star Wars for any of this.

People can rationalize it ans say what they want, this was a terrible direction for the second movie in a trilogy.
 

Cipher Peon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,909
Sure but in this case Luke's arc is made extra powerful by the way things could have gone. I never would have thought I'd see a mainstream Star Wars film take an iconoclastic stance and critique not only the series' own moral simplifications but the flaws ingrained in the whole idea of mythical heroes--with nothing less than the Luke Skywalker serving as an object lesson for the virtues of failure.
I also heavily disagree with this....in a way.
I thought the series' own moral simplifications and idea of mythical heroism was so inherently flawed that it didn't need anyone to point them out.

That The Last Jedi stopped the film to explain the obvious was infuriating. But I guess it was an inevitability? I just don't think it's daring at all.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I don't come to Star Wars for any of this.

People can rationalize it ans say what they want, this was a terrible direction for the second movie in a trilogy.
It has nothing to do with rationalizing. For a lot of people it was a damn good direction to take for the franchise and strengthened the franchise as a whole.

Claiming those who applaud the direction as rationlizing implies you think you above all others must be right and there is no way to earnestly love the direction of the film as a fan. Not everyone sees a film the same way.