Tragicomedy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,310
Didn't he say those scenes were going to be used but were scrapped because they couldn't perfect the visual effects on the Leia footage?

He tried walking that shit back, because it came down to scripting and not technology limitations:
"I badly misspoke if in an earlier statement I implied that any cut scenes between Rose and Leia were the fault of our VFX team and the wizards at ILM," Terrio said. "In that earlier interview, I was referring to a specific scene in which Leia's emotional state in Episode VII did not seem to match the scene we wrote for use in Episode IX, and so it was cut at the script stage before the VFX work was done. If we had chosen to use the scene, ILM would have made it look perfect. They always do. ILM performed actual miracles at every stage of the creative process in Episode IX. I remain in awe of their work."

The reality is, it's all a lie. In a crowded as fuck movie, JJ and this dude added a truly worthless character in Dominic Monaghan (WTF did he do?), and a random slug alien who went with the crew. We know there were scenes filmed where Rose interacted with Rey...where are those?

They specifically wrote dialogue where Rose fucking tells the audience she's been sidelined. The only missing thing would be for JJ's face to pop up in the screen corner, give a big Borat thumbs up, and say "You're welcome, 4chan!"
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
Yeah, notice how many times Rian Johnson had to come out after TLJ and explain why he made certain decisions...or his editor...or his co-writer...or...

The amount of cast and crew spin and damage control on TROS vs. TLJ is indicative of one film production that was ablaze in chaos and the other that was not.
Not entirely fair. TFA also had lots of crew interviews after it came out. Especially people from Bad Robot. I don't think it's necessarily linked to the quality of the film.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,602
Texas
Not a fan of how she was shunted aside and relegated to all of 4 minutes of screen time. Episode IX was pretty poor overall, but I just wanted to say that I hate Babu. Shit sucked yo
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,610
That Rose quote about saving what we love is one of the lamest bits of dialogue in the series. It's not quite prequel levels of bad but I could barely keep my eyeballs in my skull they were rolling so hard.
 
Dec 12, 2017
9,686
Didn't he say those scenes were going to be used but were scrapped because they couldn't perfect the visual effects on the Leia footage?
What i was saying is, had they written a script where Rose was included in the main mission with the Core 3, her role in the film wouldn't have been dependent on whether the Carrie stuff came together or not.

They chose to write Rose at the Resistance base as opposed to something larger.

No no, her passing made them write Rose out of the most important segments of the film. Something something
Exactly.
 

LBsquared

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 22, 2019
1,603
That Rose quote about saving what we love is one of the lamest bits of dialogue in the series. It's not quite prequel levels of bad but I could barely keep my eyeballs in my skull they were rolling so hard.
It was so bad I thought Lucas wrote it.

I hope Kelly gets more work, but I didn't miss her character in TROS at all.
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,525
But nah. "It didnt matter" because their Plan failed and Subtext and Characters are completely unimportant in comparison to an ever advancing plot.

Yeah this bothers me. A movie is not just a bullet list of plot points. If all that mattered about a scene was how it advances the overall plot, then I guess Raiders of the Lost Ark is the worst film ever.
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
That's not the same and you know it. TFA had interviews yes, but you don't see the blame spin cycle happening like we do in ROS.
You think this interview was spin? I've seen interviews with editors of the movie. Interviews with at least one of those same people happened after TFA. I remember listening to it. Expect this time the movie was not well received so, a negative spin if being given to their answers. To answer you, I don't think a 'blame game' has been going on. In most cases I see people reading it things what they want to read.
 

guiloahhhhh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,788
Lol that defense of Canto Bight and "Rian is a genius" I'd love any director that gives me a shit ton of screen time too.

Hope she gets some good roles in dramatic shit so we don't have to have the knights of rian defending her role in this movie until the end of time.
 

DeathyBoy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,430
Under my Hela Hela
It was so bad I thought Lucas wrote it.

I hope Kelly gets more work, but I didn't miss her character in TROS at all.

The line isn't bad at all, and is a mission statement for Star Wars as a whole. But I've read countless posts here where people say Finn should've flown into the miniature Death Star and that would've been a good pay off to his arc. Which tells me a lot of people have missed the point of Star Wars completely.

So part of me hops KMT can flee this franchise and its toxic fanbase.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
You think this interview was spin? I've seen interviews with editors of the movie. Interviews with at least one of those same people happened after TFA. I remember listening to it. Expect this time the movie was not well received so, a negative spin if being given to their answers. To answer you, I don't think a 'blame game' has been going on. In most cases I see people reading it things what they want to read.

When I say spin, I'm talking about people blaming the other person for the reason why the movie failed. In a matter of weeks after the movie:

Oscar Isaac: "Disney wouldn't let Finnpoe be a thing" (meanwhile we get a hamfisted lesbian kiss that comes off as "HAHA SEE? WE'RE TOTALLY INCLUSIVE AND NOT DOING THIS BC OF POTENTIAL DAMAGE CONTROL." I am not a Finnpoe shipper, nor does the writing say enough for them to be a thing, but the potential was there).

Editors: "We didn't have enough time"

JJ Abrams + Chris Terrio: "Well, akshually the writing is bad bc we planned to have Fisher and Tran together" (not realizing that Fisher was dead in 2016, so they had time to change up the story, and this was even before Last Jedi).

And just recently, we had another one where the writers basically said that they couldn't be bothered to build up the Emperor's return.

The Force Awakens never had this much negative back-and-forth. Hell, even the extent of The Last Jedi was basically people complaining about Luke Skywalker's portrayal (which Rian Johnson justified on multiple occasions) and Canto Bight. I have never seen this much finger pointing from a movie until Rise of Skywalker.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
A recurring theme I've noticed with The Last Jedi is it tells us stuff we already know, acts like it's subversive and unique in its perspective and then people act like it's the only Star Wars movie they've ever seen. I mean, did you miss the part in Revenge of the Sith where Palpatine was all "I'm reorganising the Republic into an Empire" and almost the entire Senate erupted into applause? Or even in Rogue One where Cassian admits he has done some pretty horrible things for the Rebellion? Did you think he was the only one?

The original trilogy was a fairy tale but every media since has reminded us it was never really so black and white as that. Palpatine didn't conquer the galaxy with force, he was practically handed the keys. Many of the core worlds, of which Alderaan was part of, were happy to live under Imperial rule because they benefited greatly from it - the wealthy got wealthier and the poor got poorer - and they just assumed the Empire would leave them alone. It wasn't until Tarkin blew up Alderaan and the Empire dissolved the Senate that those worlds began to realise maybe they picked the wrong side - and when Luke blew up the Death Star, the Empire's closest allies became its worst enemies.

Then again I'm not surprised people think The Last Jedi is a deconstruction of a narrative that doesn't even exist - it shows a kid use the Force to pull a broom towards him and they think it's some deep message about the Force not belonging to powerful bloodlines, despite the fact we know there were ten thousand Jedi before the fall of the Republic and literally only one was a Skywalker.
The last part is especially funny. "Anyone can be a Jedi!" Yeah, no shit. To become one random nobodies are taken and then trained as one. Nobodies are force sensitive all the time. lol
 

LBsquared

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 22, 2019
1,603
The line isn't bad at all, and is a mission statement for Star Wars as a whole. But I've read countless posts here where people say Finn should've flown into the miniature Death Star and that would've been a good pay off to his arc. Which tells me a lot of people have missed the point of Star Wars completely.

So part of me hops KMT can flee this franchise and its toxic fanbase.
Nah, it's terrible, which is why it very much fits in the Star Wars universe. Ford used to mercilessly mock Lucas' dialogue, and this was no different. Agreed about the toxic fanbase though.
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
When I say spin, I'm talking about people blaming the other person for the reason why the movie failed. In a matter of weeks after the movie:

Oscar Isaac: "Disney wouldn't let Finnpoe be a thing" (meanwhile we get a hamfisted lesbian kiss that comes off as "HAHA SEE? WE'RE TOTALLY INCLUSIVE AND NOT DOING THIS BC OF POTENTIAL DAMAGE CONTROL." I am not a Finnpoe shipper, nor does the writing say enough for them to be a thing, but the potential was there).

Editors: "We didn't have enough time"

JJ Abrams + Chris Terrio: "Well, akshually the writing is bad bc we planned to have Fisher and Tran together" (not realizing that Fisher was dead in 2016, so they had time to change up the story, and this was even before Last Jedi).

And just recently, we had another one where the writers basically said that they couldn't be bothered to build up the Emperor's return.

The Force Awakens never had this much negative back-and-forth. Hell, even the extent of The Last Jedi was basically people complaining about Luke Skywalker's portrayal (which Rian Johnson justified on multiple occasions) and Canto Bight. I have never seen this much finger pointing from a movie until Rise of Skywalker.
Saying they 'couldn't be bothered' to build up the emperor's return is not what was said by that editor. The decision to leave out the backstory on his return was done for legitimate film making reasons. Not because they were lazy.

I did not enjoy the movie too much myself, I thought it was a big drop off from the last two, but I'm not seeing too much out of the ordinary here.

If we were to see a legit blame game I think it would come from JJ himself with talk of a 'rushed production'. He has that up his sleeve. After all, Disney would not budge on that 2-year schedule. A lot of the movie's issues can be traced back to that decision.
 

El Bombastico

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
36,208
You just got to smile and act positive if you want work to come your way I suppose. Unless you're mega big like Harrison Ford who has enough star power to give criticism in the movie industry and not ruffle feathers to the point that would leave one missing out on work.

...So you're saying that John Boyega is fucked as far as his future career is concerned?
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
Canto Bight is essential to Last Jedi and a step forward for the franchise. Its essential in adressing that the "good guys" are just as much profiteering off the war, feeding into the overall narrative of the deconstruction of the good side/bad side dynamic. Its such a powerful story, feeds so well into the bigger narrative and does such an amazing job at growing the characters of Rose and Finn (which obviously gets completely discarded for TROS), along with establishing a new Generation of potential rebels, showcasing how the fight does and does not influence civilians on the ground.

But nah. "It didnt matter" because their Plan failed and Subtext and Characters are completely unimportant in comparison to an ever advancing plot.

even if the idea was good, the execution was not

meandering and hokey.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,690
I ish people would stopping as if it was some kind of animosity. Rose isn't the first character to be given relatively little to do in a sequel.
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
When I say spin, I'm talking about people blaming the other person for the reason why the movie failed. In a matter of weeks after the movie:

Oscar Isaac: "Disney wouldn't let Finnpoe be a thing" (meanwhile we get a hamfisted lesbian kiss that comes off as "HAHA SEE? WE'RE TOTALLY INCLUSIVE AND NOT DOING THIS BC OF POTENTIAL DAMAGE CONTROL." I am not a Finnpoe shipper, nor does the writing say enough for them to be a thing, but the potential was there).

Editors: "We didn't have enough time"

JJ Abrams + Chris Terrio: "Well, akshually the writing is bad bc we planned to have Fisher and Tran together" (not realizing that Fisher was dead in 2016, so they had time to change up the story, and this was even before Last Jedi).

And just recently, we had another one where the writers basically said that they couldn't be bothered to build up the Emperor's return.

The Force Awakens never had this much negative back-and-forth. Hell, even the extent of The Last Jedi was basically people complaining about Luke Skywalker's portrayal (which Rian Johnson justified on multiple occasions) and Canto Bight. I have never seen this much finger pointing from a movie until Rise of Skywalker.

Yup, I haven't seen something like this around such a major film in a long time. People also need to stop suggesting that everything is fine because oh well me and a couple people I know liked it or whatever. If the people behind this film thought everything was all roses with the reception they wouldn't be coming out with new stuff pretty much every day like this. It would be some grand celebratory bon voyage parade which is definitely not what any of these comments feel like.

Also, It's not just one thing like ex/ OK the Emperor is back that's stupid and makes little sense, but I can forgive that because Star Warzzzz. It's that it's many many many little things combined that equal the mess we got. Would love people to stop posting "what's the big deal" in regards to Rose's character barely being there . You know exactly what the big deal is
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,959
Saying they 'couldn't be bothered' to build up the emperor's return is not what was said by that editor. The decision to leave out the backstory on his return was done for legitimate film making reasons. Not because they were lazy.

The film's editor said that more detail on Palpatine's return would 'go off-topic'. Which is utterly daft when you consider that half this movie is spent chasing after two dumb trinkets and explaining in great detail how Ochi the Jedi Hunter (who?) ended up getting eaten by a snake.

This whole film is a natural consequence of an insane schedule and a mediocre pair of writers. They are having to make so many excuses and explain away so many massive holes because Disney/Lucasfilm did not treat this production with the proper care. They put their toy sales first and this disastrous film is the result.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,831
Didn't Finn also learn to stop running and become a fighter in TFA?
No.
Yes. Why Rian recycled that same arc and regressed the character for the beginning of TLJ I don't know.
Finn's character arc in TFA ends literally at the end line,

"I'm just here for Rey."

And he ends the film being critically injured protecting Rey. TLJ's character arc is about learning to care about MORE than just Rey.
 
Dec 12, 2017
9,686
When I say spin, I'm talking about people blaming the other person for the reason why the movie failed. In a matter of weeks after the movie:

Oscar Isaac: "Disney wouldn't let Finnpoe be a thing" (meanwhile we get a hamfisted lesbian kiss that comes off as "HAHA SEE? WE'RE TOTALLY INCLUSIVE AND NOT DOING THIS BC OF POTENTIAL DAMAGE CONTROL." I am not a Finnpoe shipper, nor does the writing say enough for them to be a thing, but the potential was there).

Editors: "We didn't have enough time"

JJ Abrams + Chris Terrio: "Well, akshually the writing is bad bc we planned to have Fisher and Tran together" (not realizing that Fisher was dead in 2016, so they had time to change up the story, and this was even before Last Jedi).

And just recently, we had another one where the writers basically said that they couldn't be bothered to build up the Emperor's return.

The Force Awakens never had this much negative back-and-forth. Hell, even the extent of The Last Jedi was basically people complaining about Luke Skywalker's portrayal (which Rian Johnson justified on multiple occasions) and Canto Bight. I have never seen this much finger pointing from a movie until Rise of Skywalker.
Yup.
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
The film's editor said that more detail on Palpatine's return would 'go off-topic'. Which is utterly daft when you consider that half this movie is spent chasing after two dumb trinkets and explaining in great detail how Ochi the Jedi Hunter (who?) ended up getting eaten by a snake.

This whole film is a natural consequence of an insane schedule and a mediocre pair of writers. They are having to make so many excuses and explain away so many massive holes because Disney/Lucasfilm did not treat this production with the proper care. They put their toy sales first and this disastrous film is the result.

in an interview with HuffPost (via CBR), editor Maryanne Brandon reveals Episode IX was originally supposed to have shed more light on Palpatine's return. But ultimately, the scenes dealing with the hows and whys of Palpatine's return were trimmed in order to prevent fans from being bombarded with exposition.

https://uk.ign.com/articles/2020/01...return-resurrection-deleted-scenes-episode-9#
"It was kind of a delicate balance and went back and forth a lot about how much we wanted to reveal," Brandon told HuffPost. "Some scenes changed quite a bit, the way that we wanted to present it to the audience. In the end, we ended up showing a lot less of it than we started with."

Brandon continued, "There was so much information in the film and so many characters that we wanted to have an audience concentrate on. I think we felt we didn't want to clutter the film up with things you didn't need to know."
Doesn't read like 'excuses' to me. It reads like someone explaining a perfectly normal decision in the film making process. Now, if you agree or disagree with that decision that is another thing altogether.

As I said earlier, I do agree that the films rushed production caused many of the issues that were apparent.













 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Saying they 'couldn't be bothered' to build up the emperor's return is not what was said by that editor. The decision to leave out the backstory on his return was done for legitimate film making reasons. Not because they were lazy.

I did not enjoy the movie too much myself, I thought it was a big drop off from the last two, but I'm not seeing too much out of the ordinary here.

If we were to see a legit blame game I think it would come from JJ himself with talk of a 'rushed production'. He has that up his sleeve. After all, Disney would not budge on that 2-year schedule. A lot of the movie's issues can be traced back to that decision.

I don't know how you can call it legitimate, when the problem is that keeping Emperor Palpatine without backstory resulted in 1) feeling like he was asspulled in as a desperate ploy to appease fans, 2) you invalidate the story of the Original Trilogy in doing so, and the lack of threaded plot points to explain only hurts that even more. I'm sorry, but you trying to justify the elimination of backstory by saying it was because of legitimate film-making reasons, while also ignoring the implications of Palpatine in the story is strange to say the least.

"There was so much information in the film and so many characters that we wanted to have an audience concentrate on. I think we felt we didn't want to clutter the film up with things you didn't need to know." is the definition of could not be bothered, because it would take too much effort to thread the plot points together in a cohesive and easy to follow manner.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,335
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
The problem is more so that Canto Bight completely grinds the plot to a halt. I think the whole good guys profiting narrative would have been much stronger if we actually saw it unfold during the war itself (we kind of saw it with Benecio del Toro's character), as opposed to having to go to a different planet. The message is great, but the execution wasn't.
The Last Jedi in a nutshell.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Canto Blight plot felt like one of many things done to make a bunch of movies rather than just make ep 9, like many other plot points of this movie. In this case, to have broader sources of conflicts than just the sith/empire/FO. I really think RJ was mandated with setting things in place to open things up to take the Marvel approach and it was quickly walked back due to a change of plan after the movie was already finished.

Wouldn't be surprised RoS was originally started as a continuation of that plan; all the fetch quest stuff sounds like it was thought out to cover different movies, a sort of Infinity Gem take.
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
I don't know how you can call it legitimate, when the problem is that keeping Emperor Palpatine without backstory resulted in 1) feeling like he was asspulled in as a desperate ploy to appease fans, 2) you invalidate the story of the Original Trilogy in doing so, and the lack of threaded plot points to explain only hurts that even more. I'm sorry, but you trying to justify the elimination of backstory by saying it was because of legitimate film-making reasons, while also ignoring the implications of Palpatine in the story is strange to say the least.

"There was so much information in the film and so many characters that we wanted to have an audience concentrate on. I think we felt we didn't want to clutter the film up with things you didn't need to know." is the definition of could not be bothered, because it would take too much effort to thread the plot points together in a cohesive and easy to follow manner.
I don't think my defending the filmmakers from an accusation that they 'could not be bothered' is strange. I've quoted the editor in another post, I don't think his answer is unsatisfactory. I think decisions such as that one are made all the time in blockbuster filmmaking. You're trying to get the right balance in giving the audience information and not giving too much that it bogs the movie down.

I don't think what they did was satisfactory. In fact, I think the whole premise of bringing Palpatine back was a flawed one. But in this interview and others, I'm not seeing 'excuses', I'm just hearing about a process that didn't work for me and a lot of other people.

TFA never had this much feedback because that movie good! The editors were just as open about that process too.
 

Kaz Mk II

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,635
I get very defensive over Canto Bight because its subtext is essential to this story and these characters. While exploring a revolting and rarely seen side of the war, Rose got the chance to become a hero like her sister, Paige, and she even opened Finn's eyes to the point where he finally stopped running and became a Resistance fighter. Was the subtext of Canto Bight just as impactful for you?

Damn, they really led that question.