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Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
I mean, that's not really remake spoilers. That's the way it's been since Advent Children. Sephiroth can't return to the planet. The compilation has had that hanging over it ever since.
Yep. His alien cells are foreign to the body of the planet so it rejects him like a virus, and he's free to travel along the lifestream to different points in time and space. He is both severely limited (able to physically manifest under certain conditions) but also godlike in his power -- effectively immortal, and liable to continually return. So the question is how do they break that cycle so that the world is truly saved and not looped back into another doomsday run.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,453
It didn't backfire. AC leads into Remake. Sephiroth is going to keep returning unless someone can figure out a way to break the cycle.

As it stands, Aerith is the loser until Sephiroth is no longer a cyclical threat. :)
What you think, that was all part of Sephiroth's plan, to possess Kadaj and let Cloud kick his arse? Lol I think you can say that about every time he fucks up, it was his plan.
Remake spoilers:

Aerith didn't stop Sephiroth in the original FF7. She merely gave her life to delay him -- his cells survived and he is still a threat to the planet, traveling back in time to terrorize it again. We'll have to see if she can actually stop him in Remake, for real this time.
Aerith raised the lifestream which helped Holy destroy Meteor, she stopped his posthumous plan and last hope to destroy them all.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
Considering how bad the new story content is in FFVIIR compared to the stuff that's from the original I'm going to guess "no."
Most of the new stuff is great. Chapter 4 is all new and had better character development than anything in the original game. It thoroughly develops Avalanche and actually shows how Cloud begins to thaw out and warm up to other people. It humanizes him.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
What you think, that was all part of Sephiroth's plan, to possess Kadaj and let Cloud kick his arse? Lol I think you can say that about every time he fucks up, it was his plan.

Aerith raised the lifestream, she stopped his posthumous plan and last hope to destroy them all.
Sephiroth hasn't been defeated yet. Only delayed. He can play this game for eternity if he wants, but if the heroes ever want true peace rather than their timeline being reset to "despair," they will need to find a way to stop the cycle. I'm intrigued.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,809
Yep. His alien cells are foreign to the body of the planet so it rejects him like a virus, and he's free to travel along the lifestream to different points in time and space. He is both severely limited (able to physically manifest under certain conditions) but also godlike in his power -- effectively immortal, and liable to continually return. So the question is how do they break that cycle so that the world is truly saved and not looped back into another doomsday run.
Well, he can supposedly only return at full power with pure Jenova cells. But even without Jenova cells he can physically interact with the world. The Remnants of Sephiroth were clones he made using the Lifestream without any Jenova cells.

His plan in 7 was to become a god and remake life on the planet as he saw fit, but his plan in Advent Children had shifted to choking the life out of the planet entirely and using its dead husk as a ship to sail the cosmos in search of another planet to conquer.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,347
Most of the new stuff is great. Chapter 4 is all new and had better character development than anything in the original game. It thoroughly develops Avalanche and actually shows how Cloud begins to thaw out and warm up to other people. It humanizes him.
Nah, I can't get passed the idiotic time ghosts or the miserable filler chapter where they decided to give Corneo's door man a generic sob story and a misguided attempt at redemption. Or that dumb idiot Soldier guy with a bike fetish. Or saving basically every relevant character from Sector 7's plate collapse.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
Nah, I can't get passed the idiotic time ghosts or the miserable filler chapter where they decided to give Corneo's door man a generic sob story and a misguided attempt at redemption. Or that dumb idiot Soldier guy with a bike fetish. Or saving basically every relevant character from Sector 7's plate collapse.
Feel free to show unfamiliar people scenes from both games -- or even just their written dialogue if you want to take graphics out of the equation and level the playing field -- and ask them which game has more convincing well-developed characters. Remake wins this easy.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,453
Sephiroth hasn't been defeated yet. Only delayed. He can play this game for eternity if he wants, but if the heroes ever want true peace rather than their timeline being reset to "despair," they will need to find a way to stop the cycle. I'm intrigued.
He was defeated in the original, you see him scream in agony and he's destroyed in beams of light. He has this disconcerting look, like he knows he's dead as dead. It's funny really, that the newer games try to portray him as immortal.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
Clear solution to that time traveling Sephiroth shit: Deploy Kirby to rip out his soul and destroy it.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
He was defeated in the original, you see him scream in agony and he's destroyed in beams of light. He has this disconcerting look, like he knows he's dead as dead. It's funny really, that the newer games try to portray him as immortal.
I mean, he is immortal. He experienced pain but his cells just went back into the planet and came back in Advent Children, where he "evolved" once more with the wing and, as per the novellas, now knows how to travel along the lifestream through time when before he only used it to travel across space. That timeline the OG saved is obsolete now as he resets to a point in the past, equipped with information from the future. How he attempts things this time remains to be seen, but it would appear the heroes are doomed to face him forever unless they can find a way to stop him at the source (his cells traveling along the lifestream).
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,453
I mean, he is immortal. He experienced pain but his cells just went back into the planet and came back in Advent Children, where he "evolved" once more with the wing and, as per the novellas, now knows how to travel along the lifestream through time when before he only used it to travel across space. That timeline the OG saved is obsolete now as he resets to a point in the past, equipped with information from the future. How he attempts things this time remains to be seen, but it would appear the heroes are doomed to face him forever unless they can find a way to stop him at the source (his cells traveling along the lifestream).
I think Cloud defeated him in 'the source', that astral palace in a battle of wills, but they changed it by AC "I will never be just a memory" and tried to potray him in a different tone with his character, compared to the original, him screaming in agony, and being destroyed in white beams.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,809
I think Cloud defeated him in 'the source', that astral palace in a battle of wills, but they changed it by AC "I will never be just a memory" and tried to potray him in a different tone with his character, compared to the original, him screaming in agony, and being destroyed in white beams.
I think that final battle in FF7 was meant to be Cloud defeating the piece of Sephiroth inside of Cloud. Cloud has Sephiroth cells in his body and that's how Sephiroth controlled him. Sephiroth tried to take over Cloud's body but Cloud kicked him out.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
I think Cloud defeated him in 'the source', that astral palace in a battle of wills, but they changed it by AC "I will never be just a memory" and tried to potray him in a different tone with his character, compared to the original, him screaming in agony, and being destroyed in white beams.
A -form- of him was destroyed. His cells remain, though. Just like how Aerith was destroyed but she survived in another form. They stopped Sephiroth for a moment, but now we know he only became stronger, traveling back in time.

What's neat is in Remake we now have the OG "spirits" of Aerith and Sephiroth (read: her soul, and his cells) playing a cosmic chess game as they send information back in time to try and outwit each other.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,453
I think that final battle in FF7 was meant to be Cloud defeating the piece of Sephiroth inside of Cloud. Cloud has Sephiroth cells in his body and that's how Sephiroth controlled him. Sephiroth tried to take over Cloud's body but Cloud kicked him out.
I do believe it was the convergence of Cloud and Sephiroth's wills in the lifestream. That said his physical body, Safer Sephiroth, collapses into dust particles, no life energy wisps escape just dusk..

Also within Cloud's pocket of the lifestream, his spirit/will is obliterated. So both spiritually and physically he looked decimated. I don't believe there was any doubt, in the context of the original game, that he was dead-dead.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,809
I do believe it was the convergence of Cloud and Sephiroth's wills in the lifestream. That said his physical body, Safer Sephiroth, collapses into dust particles, no life energy wisps escape just dusk..

Also within Cloud's pocket of the lifestream, his spirit/will is obliterated. So both spiritually and physically he looked decimated. I don't believe there was any doubt, in the context of the original game, that he was dead-dead.
His will was fragmented by that final battle. That's why he created 3 fragmented clones of himself in Advent Children.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,453
His will was fragmented by that final battle. That's why he created 3 fragmented clones of himself in Advent Children.
Yeah that's why I said in the context of the original game, Advent Children's backstory just said that could happen. If it was planned, we would have seen Sepiroth explode in 3 different set of wisps, or something but he was utterly fucked, his spirit become a white explosion and his pychical body turns to utter dusk. Those 3 'sons' climbed out of his arse of nothingness, or whatever else SE said he could do.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Feel free to show unfamiliar people scenes from both games -- or even just their written dialogue if you want to take graphics out of the equation and level the playing field -- and ask them which game has more convincing well-developed characters. Remake wins this easy.

If you're paying full price for one third of a story adapting a 1997 PS1 game shoddily translated into English it probably should, by default, do a good job with making you care about the characters now.

Midgar takes like five hours to go through before you're off on the world map. That's what it was.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
If you're paying full price for one third of a story adapting a 1997 PS1 game shoddily translated into English it probably should, by default, do a good job with making you care about the characters now.

Midgar takes like five hours to go through before you're off on the world map. That's what it was.
Yet by the end of OG FF7 the characters were still not as interesting or well-developed as they are in Remake Part 1.

Remake Part 1 feels like it was written by a normal human being. The characters generally talk and act like real people, outside of Roche who is crazy from mako poisoning and Sephiroth who is weird by nature.

Remake makes me realize that the original game was actually like a trilogy of rough drafts. They covered a lot of ground in the sense of visiting locations, but so much potential was missed developing the characters and their relationships.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
No doubt the original game ended with him completely dead, him surviving in some form was obviously a retcon.
 

Sephiroth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,065
lol this has gone so off topic

e53.jpg
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Yet by the end of OG FF7 the characters were still not as interesting or well-developed as they are in Remake Part 1.

Remake Part 1 feels like it was written by a normal human being. The characters generally talk and act like real people, outside of Roche who is crazy from mako poisoning and Sephiroth who is weird by nature.

Remake makes me realize that the original game was actually like a trilogy of rough drafts. They covered a lot of ground in the sense of visiting locations, but so much potential was missed developing the characters and their relationships.

There is nothing about OG FFVII that is a "trilogy of rough drafts." Midgar consists of maybe 1/10th of the actual adventure. The actual meat of the story is a journey across the planet hunting a horror movie monster who leaves death and devastation in his wake and from there a narrative about self delusion, ecological damage, and RPGs as a whole takes place.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
No doubt the original game ended with him completely dead, him surviving in some form was obviously a retcon.
Maybe. Even in the OG, Sephiroth had "died" at Nibelheim yet his cells were regurgitated by the planet at the Northern Cave, so in a way the OG had already laid the groundwork for the idea that killing his corporeal form isn't necessarily killing him for good.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
There is nothing about OG FFVII that is a "trilogy of rough drafts." Midgar consists of maybe 1/10th of the actual adventure. The actual meat of the story is a journey across the planet hunting a horror movie monster who leaves death and devastation in his wake and from there a narrative about self delusion, ecological damage, and RPGs as a whole takes place.
You can definitely divide the OG into a trilogy. Midgar is very much its own arc, and then you have the wild goose chase to the Black Materia and Northern Cave, and finally the various attempts to save the planet (Tifa getting the gang back together to save Cloud, nuking Meteor, stopping the Weapons, stopping Hojo and finally Sephiroth).
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,453
Maybe. Even in the OG, Sephiroth had "died" at Nibelheim yet his cells were regurgitated by the planet at the Northern Cave, so in a way the OG had already laid the groundwork for the idea that killing his corporeal form isn't necessarily killing him for good.
At the end, there was no cells left to reconvene. They destroyed him physically and spiritually. He was toast.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,203
Personally I do want something like this to happen, (not literally lol) and they turn this scene on its head. Not a fan of the whole idea Fate may be challenged, but "the waifu" always has to die.
I'm very curious about how Sephiroth will approach that moment, knowing what he knows now. Or maybe even how Aerith will approach that moment, since she is clearly hearing voices from the future that she doesn't fully understand.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,453
I'm very curious about how Sephiroth will approach that moment, knowing what he knows now. Or maybe even how Aerith will approach that moment, since she is clearly hearing voices from the future that she doesn't fully understand.

In Remake's ending
Sephiroth says to Cloud he won't let him die. I guess he will want to create some new form of existence (which is quite common in JRPGs) Sephiroth said everything will die one day and he wants to defy that inevitability, so it may not be in his interest to flat out kill them.

Perhaps Aerith can use Holy's energy to disrupt this ascension. Then when Sephiroth tries to kill her, it's a last ditch attempt. In my opinion, if he misses his opportunity, it will be more emotionally gratifying, than Aerith just dying again in a different timeline. This throws his plans into disarray and would make the story more exciting.