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Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,886
I mean, I think that while understandable, Valve comment wasn't appropriate, since it gave a validation to really angry people. The fact Valve didn't do it again it's proof that the company understands it did badly.

I remember developers reporting that Valve made a change in Steam's terms and conditions so that developers can't remove the game from Steam if they have started to take pre-orders. If that's true then I think that Valve not doing a public statement again is almost certainly because of that.

Edit: It has been confirmed that there was no such change.
 
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eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,133
I remember developers reporting that Valve made a change in Steam's terms and conditions so that developers can't remove the game from Steam if they have started to take pre-orders. If that's true then I think that Valve not doing a public statement again is almost certainly because of that.
Its a lie. Heck, it happened afterwards with Anno!
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
I remember developers reporting that Valve made a change in Steam's terms and conditions so that developers can't remove the game from Steam if they have started to take pre-orders. If that's true then I think that Valve not doing a public statement again is almost certainly because of that.

Well, in the article they said is because they don't "want to upset the community or light anyone's head on fire" again.

I think is clear they understood it wasn't a good decision.
 

Sailent

Member
Mar 2, 2018
1,591
Which could be relevant to the appropriate discussion. I support review bombing under certain circumstances but i am against the iron fury back track in case you're wondering.

It just happens that almost all of the time, there are no review bombings coming from, for example, the lgbt community, minorities, etc. It's almost always the other way around.

I haven't seen a game being review bombed for "good reasons". Maybe you can hand me out a couple examples, I'm pretty out of the loop with review bombing.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,133
So no such clause exists? Can any developer confirm one way or another?
As I said, Anno did that, they just left after preorders. Steam also doesn't prevent developers to remove their games from sale.

The whole thing was just an idea people spitballed to stop this kind of shitty behaviour to happen, but it never happened IRL.

And if such change had really happened, do you think the videogame media wouldnt advertise it as "bad big Valve taking revenge on small poor devs"?
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
It just happens that almost all of the time, there are no review bombings coming from, for example, the lgbt community, minorities, etc. It's almost always the other way around.

I haven't seen a game being review bombed for "good reasons". Maybe you can hand me out a couple examples, I'm pretty out of the loop with review bombing.

Just right out of my mind, the Paradox price change.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
It just happens that almost all of the time, there are no review bombings coming from, for example, the lgbt community, minorities, etc. It's almost always the other way around.

I haven't seen a game being review bombed for "good reasons". Maybe you can hand me out a couple examples, I'm pretty out of the loop with review bombing.
Square accidentally(?) introducing online DRM to Final Fantasy X comes to mind. That likely would've flown completely under the radar without review bombing.

Also, I think people were right to reviewbomb Rocket League when they started being weird about whether it would be on Steam.
 

DaciaJC

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,685
I haven't seen a game being review bombed for "good reasons". Maybe you can hand me out a couple examples, I'm pretty out of the loop with review bombing.

Take Two trying to kill singleplayer modding in GTA V, Ubisoft changing certain aspects of R6 Siege to comply with China's government censorship. Couple of other examples in posts above as well.
 

Wok

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,258
France
I never understood why Valve's comment was controversial.

I could see a few reasons why people were shocked. Valve's comment was unprecedented:
  • this was the first time that Valve would manually write a disclaimer for a specific store page. Valve is known for automating everything.
  • Valve's message was directly aimed at gamers. This is also very rare, as Valve was* known for writing/talking to gamers as little as possible.
  • Valve would call the exclusivity "unfair" for their customers, which is quite strong considering that pre-orders were ultimately fulfilled.
This makes the comment controversial, and the "lightning bolt" image is not too far off in my opinion: there was a manual intervention to target a game, the comment was tailored for the audience of gamers, whom we know are not the most pleasant individuals to deal with on the Internet, and the comment used a vocabulary which would exacerbate their anger by playing with the "entitled gamer" cliché. I imagine Gabe as Zeus, standing at the top of the Steam mountain and aiming his bolt.

The next event is an angry mob banging at the doors of every social media account of the devs and publishers, and rampaging the reviews of their previous games. That is the fire created after the lightning bolt struck their store page.

It is nice that Valve acknowledges that they messed up, that they have great powers, and thus great responsibility.



*things have changed a lot after Artifact's failure and the development of Underlords and Steam labs.

The publisher created an unprecedented mess by pulling a game that had already been sold to people.

I disagree. This was not an unprecedented mess:
  • the people who pre-ordered the game got what they paid for on day one. The game was NOT refunded and was NOT removed from their Steam library.
  • games are removed from Steam every day, even though some people already purchased them.
 
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Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,273
Tim Sweeney: *is literally Trump levels of stupid on Twitter every single day*
Gaming journalists:
Valve: *calls a game being removed from Steam two weeks before launching "unfair for Steam consumers" once*
Kotaku: OH MY GOD LIGHTING ROD WE WILL NEVER FORGET THIS INCREDIBLY TOXIC EVENT
 

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,735
  • the people who pre-ordered the game got what they paid for on day one. The game was NOT refunded and was NOT removed from their Steam library.

Anybody who preordered a physical copy did not get what the paid for. Moreover, anybody who wanted to preorder on Steam but hadn't yet suddenly had less than a day to scrounge up the cash to do so. These events shortly before release were a bit unprecedented.
 

Wok

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,258
France
Anybody who preordered a physical copy did not get what the paid for. Moreover, anybody who wanted to preorder on Steam but hadn't yet suddenly had less than a day to scrounge up the cash to do so. These events shortly before release were a bit unprecedented.

I did not know for the physical copy. However, for your second point, it is not an issue for the people who did not have time to pre-order the digital Steam copy: this happens all the time when games are removed without notice. With Metro, people were warned that the game would be removed, right? It is even better than in the usual cases.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,987
  • Valve's message was directly aimed at gamers. This is also very rare, as Valve was* known for writing/talking to gamers as little as possible.
  • Valve would call the exclusivity "unfair" for their customers, which is quite strong considering that pre-orders were ultimately fulfilled.
This makes the comment controversial, and the "lightning bolt" image is not too far off in my opinion: there was a manual intervention to target a game, the comment was tailored for the audience of gamers, whom we know are not the most pleasant individuals to deal with on the Internet, and the comment used a vocabulary which would exacerbate their anger by playing with the "entitled gamer" cliché. The next event is an angry mob banging at the doors of every social media account of the devs and publishers, and rampaging the reviews of their previous games. That is the fire created after the lightning bolt struck their store page.

.We think the decision to remove the game is unfair to Steam customers, especially after a long pre-sale period. We apologize to Steam customers that were expecting it to be available for sale through the February 15th release date, but we were only recently informed of the decision and given limited time to let everyone know.

1) Valve's message was aimed at customers on Steam. Actual people who just use the store. Not Gamers specifically.
2) The bolded portions of their statement indicate that they think it unfair to Steam customers who were expecting it to be on sale through/after February 15th.

I don't get your comment about "pre-orders were ultimately fulfilled", as there was never any doubt about that occurring. Valve weren't concerned about it, and didn't believe customers would be either. If they were, they would've said so... As they did on the Anno 1800 store page:

The publisher has assured us that all prior sales of the game on Steam will be fulfilled on Steam, and Steam owners will be able to access the game and any future updates or DLC through Steam.
 

Wok

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,258
France
I don't get your comment about "pre-orders were ultimately fulfilled", as there was never any doubt about that occurring, and Valve weren't concerned about it

I meant that I would have found it unfair if the Steam pre-orders were not fulfilled on Steam. For instance, imagine that the pre-orders had been refunded instead, that would have been unprecedented and unfair. I do not understand the use of the word "unfair" in Valve's first sentence, and I find it misleading:

We think the decision to remove the game is unfair to Steam customers, especially after a long pre-sale period.

The statement for Anno 1800 is miles better than the statement for Metro Exodus.

When the two statements are shown side to side, it is even more obvious that there was an issue with the disclaimer on Metro's store page.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,235
Epic are stoking their own bonfire with their awful business practices.
Valve don't need to do anything.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,133
I meant that I would have found it unfair if the Steam pre-orders were not fulfilled on Steam. For instance, imagine that the pre-orders had been refunded instead, that would have been unprecedented and unfair. I do not understand the use of the word "unfair" in Valve's first sentence, and I find it misleading:
That's what the following sentence is for, it explains the reason why (because it is removed nearly without warning with a short time span for people to react). The game being up for preorder for a long time and really close to launch makes it seem that the game will be up for at least launch, when most people will make the decision to buy it, alas it wasnt.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,987
I meant that I would have found it unfair if the Steam pre-orders were not fulfilled on Steam. For instance, imagine that the pre-orders had been refunded instead, that would have been unprecedented and unfair. I do not understand the use of the word "unfair" in Valve's first sentence, and I find it misleading:

I mean, that's why it kind of has to be taken alongside the following sentence. This:

We think the decision to remove the game is unfair to Steam customers, especially after a long pre-sale period.

lacks context. Why is it unfair? Because...

... Steam customers that were expecting it to be available for sale through the February 15th release date

Also, Grayson making a big song-and-dance about the Metro Exodus statement and the word "unfair" when Anno 1800's statement can be taken to be just as inflammatory, it's just worded more politely:

Notice:

Sales of Anno 1800 will be discontinued on Steam after April 16th due to a publisher decision to make the game exclusive to another PC store.

The publisher has assured us that all prior sales of the game on Steam will be fulfilled on Steam, and Steam owners will be able to access the game and any future updates or DLC through Steam.

We apologize to Steam customers that were expecting it to be available for sale after the April 16th release date.
 

AppleKid

Member
Feb 21, 2018
2,608
Tim Sweeney: *is literally Trump levels of stupid on Twitter every single day*
Gaming journalists:
Valve: *calls a game being removed from Steam two weeks before launching "unfair for Steam consumers" once*
Kotaku: OH MY GOD LIGHTING ROD WE WILL NEVER FORGET THIS INCREDIBLY TOXIC EVENT
Why is it that there aren't many articles like the one here about Tim Sweeney?? Genuinely confused why there wouldn't be a good number of opinion pieces on that as well. Seems the articles are always reports of "Gamers are upset by this and attacking Epic + devs" but I also haven't exactly been looking for articles surrounding EGS so really don't know
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
Wasn't Metro the first big exclusive EGS game? Makes sense that Valve would comment on it being removed from Steam right before release. Now going forward consumers know that Epic will pay for exclusivity so Valve doesn't need to comment.
 

Stallion Free

Member
Oct 29, 2017
960
This makes the comment controversial, and the "lightning bolt" image is not too far off in my opinion: there was a manual intervention to target a game, the comment was tailored for the audience of gamers, whom we know are not the most pleasant individuals to deal with on the Internet, and the comment used a vocabulary which would exacerbate their anger by playing with the "entitled gamer" cliché. I imagine Gabe as Zeus, standing at the top of the Steam mountain and aiming his bolt.

The next event is an angry mob banging at the doors of every social media account of the devs and publishers, and rampaging the reviews of their previous games. That is the fire created after the lightning bolt struck their store page.
This is still stretching. Really stretching. And relies on stereotyping gamers into a homogenous group.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,181
I trust that valve had good intentions behind the message (which was still there when i checked metro's page 2 days ago!), like it was kind of blind of them not to expect the reaction and it looks like they learned from the mistake. It was a truly odd and exceptional move putting the message on the steam page, i dont think it would have been weird to think of it as incisive, but a mistake is a mistake and it's cool that they recognize that and spoke out on it
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Here is the actual quote from Blue, the Valve rep.



What does 'what came out was not what we expected' mean to you?
Seems like Valve is jabbing him and the journalists right in the face. "what came out on those articles about what we mean wasn't what we were actually meaning"
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
The main thing that made me post stuff is the Valve interview quotes tbh, those are pretty rare. Seems like that might be changing though

It's rotten that he probably still has a target on his back because of gamergate. Yet, neither or those things have to factor into current criticism of poor output. It's not a shield.

You may not remember or be aware of #NotYourShield, but that hashtag/phrase was basically the starting point for GG a few years back if I remember right. I'd recommend avoiding that, silly as it sounds
 

Absolute

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,090
I trust that valve had good intentions behind the message (which was still there when i checked metro's page 2 days ago!), like it was kind of blind of them not to expect the reaction and it looks like they learned from the mistake. It was a truly odd and exceptional move putting the message on the steam page, i dont think it would have been weird to think of it as incisive, but a mistake is a mistake and it's cool that they recognize that and spoke out on it

It was an odd and exceptional move for the game to go exclusive so close to release and they should've realised the potential back lash to their actions but somehow only Valve is being taken to task by this journalist.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,356
You may not remember or be aware of #NotYourShield, but that hashtag/phrase was basically the starting point for GG a few years back if I remember right. I'd recommend avoiding that, silly as it sounds

That's the first time I've heard of it. Wasn't aware.
Thanks for the heads up.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
It was an odd and exceptional move for the game to go exclusive so close to release and they should've realised the potential back lash to their actions but somehow only Valve is being taken to task by this journalist.

Even Valve said they were in the wrong here. Is obviously that is not their fault entirely, they helped to make it worse. They understood that and is something they didn't do again.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,471
Gotta congratulate Nathan here for his courage. When all of his colleagues conveniently forgot that horror story about Valve's message about Exodus exclusivity, one stood above all and decided to never let that pass. Here we are, 7 months later, with Nathan pressing the ugly big corporation about that message when everyone forgot about it.

To think that some cowards would just care about calling out THQ Nordic for signal boosting child pornography and pedophilia, I'm glad and proud that there are modern 2.0 Heroes like Nathan.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,181
It was an odd and exceptional move for the game to go exclusive so close to release and they should've realised the potential back lash to their actions but somehow only Valve is being taken to task by this journalist.

Yep definitely, im not familiar with the writer but it does feel like a double standard a bit. But regardless, still good on valve to acknowledge that what they did only served to stoke bad feelings
 

BlueOdin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,014
So he got interviews with people from Valve regarding Steam and this is what he asks? I am trying to wrap my head around what insights were supposed to get out of that. If not about the client ask about The Valley of Gods or some other software or game stuff they're working on.
 

Deleted member 1055

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
770
You may not remember or be aware of #NotYourShield, but that hashtag/phrase was basically the starting point for GG a few years back if I remember right. I'd recommend avoiding that, silly as it sounds

The #NotYourShield campaign was a later development in the awful history of GamerGate and it is rather unfair to the early victims of GamerGate to point to that as the starting point of it all. Both the large-scale harassment campaign against Zoe Quinn and the branding of that campaign as #GamerGate predated #NotYourShield by a fair bit, with #NotYourShield being a transparent attempt at countering some of the resulting push-back against GamerGate. See for example here for how that tag fit into the time-line.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
It just happens that almost all of the time, there are no review bombings coming from, for example, the lgbt community, minorities, etc. It's almost always the other way around.

I haven't seen a game being review bombed for "good reasons". Maybe you can hand me out a couple examples, I'm pretty out of the loop with review bombing.
SF V rootkit and Square's awful treatment of Chrono Trigger (that got complete overhauled thanks to the review bombing) immediately come to mind.
Skyrim and Fallout 4 for paid mods.
Multiple games for lack of support or sudden changes in regional pricing.
Assassin's Creed Unity got positive reviews review bombed after Ubi made the game free due to the Notre Dame fire.
Fallout76 for the state of its launch.

While ball's on court to judge if it's for good reasons, there have been multiple review bombs by chinese players for different reasons that, good or bad, are their only way of communicating:
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,159
Should have said "We didn't mean for that comment to be a lightning rod. That said, fuck Epic Games."
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,133
I disagree:
  • I don't find the word "unfair" adequate, even with the second sentence.
  • the notice for Anno 1800 is miles better, and the sentence in-between "The publisher has assured us that all prior sales... " is of utter importance.
The timeline given for Metro Exodus and Anno was much more different. Anno there was 2 weeks time between the announcement and the removal of the game, while in the case of Metro it was basically hours. The Metro Exodus label was changed later on to include that part, as the conversation was ongoing.

I would say that the "unfair" part is fair, and that a lot of the media overreacted to it by thinking it was refering to "unfair to Valve" while they meant "unfair to the customers that were waiting" (as implied on the second sentence).