Pariah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,953
Yes, lets abruptly switch the strategy of probably the most successful gaming company on the whim of streaming that offers nolong term data or has more successful players than they already do. Shawn did an excellent job during his time at Sony.
What you're talking about is a white-or-black scenario; that has nothing to do with his or my statement. He criticizes present management for not putting the spotlight on alternative games, goes out of his way to even give examples; all he did for those quoted franchises was funding a mediocre remaster for Parappa and wearing a t-shirt for Vib Ribbon. On that point, he can give lessons to no one.
 

Liliana

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,375
NYC
Firstly PlayStation now exists and already does everything xcloud and game pass do.

"Everything" is factually false.

- PSNow does not offer day one first party titles (i.e., we know Starfield, Halo, Forza Horizon, Hellblade 2, Avowed, Elder Scrolls 6, Doom Next etc. are all day one on Game Pass)

- PSNow doesn't have anywhere even near as much new/recent releases on the service, nor does it have other subs tied into it (i.e., Crysis Remastered, which is now on Game Pass, or Battlefield 2042/Madden 2022/Fifa 2022 which will eventually come when it goes onto EA Play)

- PSNow doesn't get day one third party titles (i.e., Hades, Back 4 Blood, Dragon Quest XI S, Stalker 2 Football Manager 2022, Outriders, to say a few. This is especially true with dozens upon dozens of indie titles on a regular basis).

- PSNow doesn't offer monthly perks that rotate in and out (free Disney+, 6 months Spotify Premium/Discord Nitro, in game downloadable items/cosmetics aka Apex Legends, Warframe, PSO2, etc.) You can also buy any game or it's DLC on Game Pass for 10-20% off (so I never understood people complaining that they like to "own" their games as some sort of detriment to a subscription).

Cost of game production going up, while streaming revenue models remaining low value.

eg Spotify - artists barely make pennies per 100 streams they make their money off touring and live gigs.

Movies and music take less money to make than games. But it can work out for very popular bands because streaming is only one revenue source. They can also lean into licencing their songs for us in movies, adverts etc.

Big single player games cost £150m+ to develop streaming will not recover that.

For a streaming platform to work you need 1 big game releasing every 2 weeks to keep people subscribed.

New movies and shows can be produced in 6 months, game dev takes 3 to 5 years

Only way it could work is if the subscription fee was like £40 a month and that money is then redistributed among devs. But do they just pay the devs a certain amount upfrong? Or per hours played? Contracts can get messy.

So much of this is straight up armchair analysis and fearmongering that I don't even know where to begin. Comparing video games and Game Pass to music licensing and Spotify is as disingenious as it gets.

Thirdly - there will be a decline in quality if first party went day and date streaming.

Think of the quality of Netflix exclusive movies in the early days.

You could clearly tell the difference between blockbusters that had been made for cinema and then went to streaming platforms after the cinema run and the "Netflix exclusives". They were a joke.

And this is straight up FUD and pure fearmongering. There hasn't been a decline in quality thus far since games starting launching day one on Game Pass; if anything, as the years go by, the contrary. Are you seriously comparing this to movies that go straight to streaming/dvd/bluray?

I guarantee game pass is running at a loss, and the first party budgets and types of games they sell have been designed for streaming service such as GAAS model games.
The majority of games currently in dev over at Xbox are not GaaS, and Phil Spencer literally talked about GaaS not being needed for Game Pass and how it's not what they're aiming for. Additionally, the overwhelmingly vast majority of games currently on Game Pass are not GaaS model games.

I can't tell if you're speaking from ignorance at this point or straight up dishing out FUD to paint some sort of narrative.

The only single player games I can think of at Microsoft are games already in development at recently (last 2 years) purchased studios. What happens 5 or 10 years down the line? If Ms shareholders decide the streaming platform can no longer be subsidised and must stand on its own, but doesn't have the subscriber base to sustain multiple high budget single player games releasing several times a year?

Ah, the good ol' "but what about 5 years from now?" and "is it sustainable?" balled into one. The actual CEO of Microsoft, for the first time ever, talked about how commited they are to Xbox and Game Pass and how they will be investing into more acquisitions for Game Pass. The increase in active subscribers are continuing to skyrocket each month. Yet you think in 5+ years, shareholders will decide it might not be sustainable enough? I don't even think what you're saying would make sense in the Ballmer era, given the positivity and growth of the service, and what we have now is an absolute farcry from that period.

Except if you can stream a 100 brand new games, and it is functionally the same experience, why would any one buy new games, if the subscription is cheaper than buying 2 games a year?

That can be lost sales right there. Lost sales can equal lost revenue for devs, which equals lower budgets in the future. Or the same budget spread across several smaller games to mitigate risk.

Sony can fund first parties, but then what about third parties? Do they get paid upfront? Is Sony going to pay 20 devs a week to get their game on streaming upfront? And then nobody plays it? Or is like Spotify where devs get pennies per play etc? That's a huge risk for both sides. That needs mitigated by putting ones eggs in multiple baskets.

And now we're at the "poor devs, losing revenue from lost sales." Sigh

Multiple developers have went on record talking about how they gain sales from Game Pass (due to exposure, etc.), and how their games launching on the service are very successful. And yes, they are paid upfront, which mitigates the "risk" for them. As far as first parties, all we have heard practically nonstop from their studios is how creative they're allowed to be thanks to their games coming to Game Pass and not having to worry about following industry trends to be a mega seller. Game Pass literally removes all "risk" for them right there.

Do you know that there is a waiting line for developers to get their games on Game Pass, and devs have openly talked about hoping their game makes the cut? Those poor devs, they must not know what they're getting themselves into! /s

The amount of money Game Pass is looking to be making on an annual basis is going to be insane (if their growth continues to be the same and doesn't plateau, but there's nothing indicating it will considering we havent even seen the big guns yet and they start dropping holiday this year). What do I care if they're going to be paying devs upfront for more games to feed the beast and continue to grow the service? In the end devs win, they win and ultimately, I win.

So not Scaremongering. no, its valid analysis. Your idea is based on hope and and based on xbox. Their portfolio of games is different. And xbox can operate on a loss for decades if they want. Growth and profit is not the same thing.

Things can change in the future and ps now is already there, ready for the transition Once every market has the broadband infrastructure to make it viable worldwide.

And they could choose to only put multiplayer games out at the same time on PS Now any time.

None of what you argue is valid analysis except talking about countries with bad internet infrastructure, but even then you fail to coalesce your entire point. I'm not sure you're the one to tell him that his idea is based on hope.
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
Microsoft was almost irrelevant when they started Game Pass. They didn't have any true blockbusters people cared for like they care for the biggest Sony and Nintendo games. They needed to change something. Sony and Nintendo have several franchises that sell 10+ millions. Why would they make a huge gamble right now when everything works perfectly fine for them? They can always switch models when things go south.
I said gamers should want this not the companies. If you purchase two or three first party games a year then a subscription service would always make more sense over not having the option.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
I said gamers should want this not the companies. If you purchase two or three first party games a year then a subscription service would always make more sense over not having the option.
Not if I like to own, collect, resell, trade and/or borrow my games and almost never buy for full price anyway.

Edit: ah you mean the additional option from a customer view. Of course that makes sense.
 
Nov 19, 2019
10,231
Now check for Sony games.
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the only entry is at 15,5 million with Last of Us

The premise of the article is, that sony wants 100 million sellers but has no way to achieve that, or even the drive to change their ways. Sure, they could heavily invest into mobile gaming, but would Sony fans want that?
The only way for even dreaming of hundred million sales with their current AAA games, is Day 1 PC plus a streaming service.
There are many ways to skin a cat. Everyone's talking about PC, Mobile, GamePass competitor which are all valid options when you're taking what Jim Ryan said literally. And Sony is clearly touching on some of these ideas.

But I think the real strategy is pursuing the iPhone market saturation model. What % of mobile phones is just iPhone? It's fucking monstrous. Insane numbers are just a random Tuesday when you have saturation like that.

I'm not saying whether or not this is realistic or achievable for a videogame console, just that it does appear to be a big part of the strategy.
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
There are many ways to skin a cat. Everyone's talking about PC, Mobile, GamePass competitor which are all valid options when you're taking what Jim Ryan said literally. And Sony is clearly touching on some of these ideas.

But I think the real strategy is pursuing the iPhone market saturation model. What % of mobile phones is just iPhone? It's fucking monstrous. Insane numbers are just a random Tuesday when you have saturation like that.

I'm not saying whether or not this is realistic or achievable for a videogame console, just that it does appear to be a big part of the strategy.
A console is considered a "monster" on this forum when it sells 20 million units a year. Sony can't hope for anything close to the market penetration of iOS devices with their consoles. They need to bring their software to the devices that people already have if they want to reach an audience of hundreds of millions.

The majority seems to think that this is a bad article but I don't agree. The writer presented a quote from Jim Ryan and asked a pertinent question: If the goal is to expand the audience, what is being done about it? Releasing games on PC is definitely a move towards that goal but I feel that there is at least some truth in the writer's conclusion that Sony's current strategy isn't deviating much from the norm. Whether it should deviate or not is a different but equally interesting question.
Well if that's their long term vision/goal they won't be able to reach it overnight. I hope they commit to releasing their games on PC day 1 at some point, but I suspect they will first be figuring out how to make PC gamers set up and use a Playstation Network account before blindly releasing everything on Steam.
 

Alpha_ulquiorra

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
281
The majority seems to think that this is a bad article but I don't agree. The writer presented a quote from Jim Ryan and asked a pertinent question: If the goal is to expand the audience, what is being done about it? Releasing games on PC is definitely a move towards that goal but I feel that there is at least some truth in the writer's conclusion that Sony's current strategy isn't deviating much from the norm. Whether it should deviate or not is a different but equally interesting question.
1. Assuming the answer is a gamepass model is faulty in itself as there is no streaming service close to what they already have in console sales and player base.
2. The barrier of entry has been shown to be the type of game that resonates with a wider audience rather than the platform.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,086
1. Assuming the answer is a gamepass model is faulty in itself as there is no streaming service close to what they already have in console sales and player base.
2. The barrier of entry has been shown to be the type of game that resonates with a wider audience rather than the platform.

Regarding the second point, what type of game would you say would resonate more with a wider audience?
 

Alpha_ulquiorra

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
281
Regarding the second point, what type of game would you say would resonate more with a wider audience?
If we knew that gaming would probably be bigger. But the wider audience seems to like simpler games. Gaming also has to compete with other hobbies free time not just other games. There is also the fact that gamers are still somewhat seen as basement dwelling, no job, unhygienic, introverts to the wider population. Thats changed a bit over the last decade but its still somewhat prevalent.

I think we would maybe have to look at wii like games. Whether or not that audience wants to play games int their free time remains to be seen
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,200
Regarding the second point, what type of game would you say would resonate more with a wider audience?
I think the important thing is to pay more attention to a game's prerequisites. Gaming history is pretty extensive now, and there are a lot of games that want you to be familiar with concepts from other games, and we don't do a good enough job of mapping it all out.

For a particularly widespread example, look at camera control. These days, there are so many games that require you to constantly use a second stick to manipulate the camera manually, and without needing to devote any real brainpower to it. It's a basic skill that we all have, because we've been doing it forever. But for newcomers, the need to babysit the camera is a significant hurdle.

Games that break through to whole new demographics tend to have less of these prerequisites. What do you need to already know to play Wii Sports? Practically nothing.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,086
If we knew that gaming would probably be bigger. But the wider audience seems to like simpler games. Gaming also has to compete with other hobbies free time not just other games. There is also the fact that gamers are still somewhat seen as basement dwelling, no job, unhygienic, introverts to the wider population. Thats changed a bit over the last decade but its still somewhat prevalent.

I think we would maybe have to look at wii like games. Whether or not that audience wants to play games int their free time remains to be seen

I think the important thing is to pay more attention to a game's prerequisites. Gaming history is pretty extensive now, and there are a lot of games that want you to be familiar with concepts from other games, and we don't do a good enough job of mapping it all out.

For a particularly widespread example, look at camera control. These days, there are so many games that require you to constantly use a second stick to manipulate the camera manually, and without needing to devote any real brainpower to it. It's a basic skill that we all have, because we've been doing it forever. But for newcomers, the need to babysit the camera is a significant hurdle.

Games that break through to whole new demographics tend to have less of these prerequisites. What do you need to already know to play Wii Sports? Practically nothing.

The level of simplicity of a game's controls is definitely a factor. Not the only one, because there are complex games like League of Legends that are massively popular, but certainly one of the most important ones. I'd say it's a combination of complex controls and a high barrier for entry, not just because you have to buy a console but also because games cost quite a bit of money upfront.

These factors are why I wondered whether console makers should try and chase after the mainstream as a core business. You could conceivably eliminate the console barrier (through PC and streaming) and the purchase barrier (through subscriptions) but the control issue can't be eliminated without a drastic redesign of games that will probably alienate your existing audience.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,392
On streaming specifically, I genuinely don't get the obsession with the damn thing.
Game streaming will always suck versus local hardware. Even for what is agreed to be the best services, you still get lag and poor image quality. Who wants this?

You add to this the fact that companies have been pretty open with the idea that the end goal down the line is the elimination of consoles, you buy a controller and stream all your games to your TV. You own nothing and there's no way to preserve the games when inevitably someone pulls the plug on that platform.
It makes my skin crawl.

It's also pretty ironic that we're just repeating the same scenario when Netflix launched its streaming.
It was great, and everyone was like fuck cable everyone should do streaming. And they did. And now if you wanna keep up with anything, you gotta cough up 10 bucks every month to 150 different platforms. Half of which will shut down in 6 months, the other half will slash its library and raise the sub price to $15.