Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
RELATIVELY SPEAKING, I MEAN.

I don't doubt that MMOs are expensive to make. They're huge. Require tons of assets, and costly servers. It's why a bunch of them still have sub fees. (That, and free money without the risk of losing an install base.)

So whenever somebody talks about the death of the MMO, one of the reasons stated is "Well, they're just too expensive to make". Initially, I just nod my head and agree without much thought. There's no doubt that modern MMOs from small, or even mid-size developers and publishers are pretty much guaranteed a short life-span. The appeal of an MMO is a breathing world with real people populating it, but if your MMO doesn't hook in a sizable audience, you simply can't maintain the cost of it.

But that's not what I'm talking about right now. I'm talking about AAA MMOS from big publishers. EA, Ubisoft, Activision, 2K, WB, etc.

Surely, MMOs are still a profitable and viable use of resources. Look at Destiny, The Division, and soon, Anthem.

While many will refute the "MMO Status" of these games, to me that's only a technicality and an issue of semantics. Fuctionally, they are more or less the same, or at least a sub-genre of the MMO super-genre. These games have an insane amount of assets and I would imagine digital archiving work put into them, just like any other online game.

Listed on the Wikipedia page of most expensive video games, of the top 10 most expensive games to make (Total), 2 of them can be described as "MMOs"

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In terms exclusive to development costs, again, only 2 of these games are in the top 10. (Technically, 3, as Destiny is listed at the bottom of the sort, given it's "<140m" descriptor.

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Though I haven't personally checked each individual source for these, I can't imagine things are super off here, at least given the public information that we know. (A lot of the Marketing Costs simply aren't displayed.)

Now, if we go by the Wikipedia numbers in good faith, this still ignores the fact that MMOs by nature have a high amount of server maintenance, and, well, servers in general. Though most of these games have or had a giant online component, a fair amount of them did not have an online population comparable to the mega-hits of today, and probably stored less player data than a typical MMO. We also have to recognize that SWTOR, Destiny, and Defiance all scored pretty high here, and are all fairly modern entries in the genre, granted. But I also think we should frame everything in the now highly GaaS driven industry of third parties and online games.

With hyper-scientifically-proven approaches to monetization of piecemeal content and microtransactions, these types of games have got to be some of the most profitable things we've ever seen in the industry, for better or for worse. While these micro-transactions can be applied to almost any genre, as we've seen over the past few years, it felt to me like this style of monetization in non-mobile gaming really got an early foothold in these MMO type games. Perhaps I'm blatantly wrong and the numbers tell me so, but I feel as though MMOs and MTX go hand in hand in a strange way, though that may just be because MMOs were some of the earliest, if not the absolute earliest GaaS titles. Just a thought, but not an argument point I'm willing to die on a hill for.

But compared to other AAA games, are MMOs from big name publishers really dramatically less financially viable for them to die out? Given the right marketing push, (The Division, Guild Wars 2), the right developer (Destiny), or the right IP (SWTOR, ESO, FFXIV), these games can coast on some associated reputation alone, at least for a little while, even if they do trend downwards over time, as most online games do. Obviously publishers need to research any and all market trends when releasing anything, but it's not like the days of old where the MMO genre is unproven and there are hundreds of competitors at any time. Nobody is rushing out to be the next WoW as soon as possible anymore. We have years and years of data and lessons learned to put something out with a relatively lower risk factor than before.

I don't know all the numbers, and I certainly don't work in the industry, so obviously I'm not educated to really make some declaration about it, but I do feel qualified enough to ask.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
How big are these Destiny and Division games, I find it hard to believe they come close to a persistent open world with limited instancing like World of Warcraft has or even Old Republic, and a few other former competitors in that space.
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,174
I don't think those numbers includes that MMO's never finish, they're constantly needing to make new content, fix bugs, make quality of life features, overhaul old parts of the game, make sure power creep doesn't destroy old mandatory content, balancing, and much much more.

MMO's are expensive because they require high upkeep after launch, especially theme-park MMO's. To keep people constantly playing, you need a steady stream of content, to make more content you need a steady stream of money. Games like Destiny and The Division don't have regular large updates and expansions on the same level that MMO's do, and often they just make a new game because they are not made to be built upon for years and years.
 

Deleted member 32101

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 9, 2017
335
Server infrastructure isn't cheap. People get MScs / PhDs in CS to even understand what's going on in such large distributed database systems.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,837
Game development seems to be getting more expensive so I'd say yes.
 
OP
OP
Gundam

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
Game development seems to be getting more expensive

Which is why I'm even asking this. I wonder, most AAA games now are made for whichever modern console is either leading the market, or has the highest specs. I'm contradicting myself a little bit here, as The Division and Destiny are certainly made with this in mind, but MMOs, at least seemingly to me, have never traditionally pushed how technically demanding they are to it's limits, I assume because of server-related restraints, but also to get as big of an install base as possible: If Jimmy can run WoW on his potato computer, that's yet another $15 a month.

Obviously on consoles and games made for consoles, this isn't really a concern, as the entire install base is more or less working on the same specs, (This may soon prove to be uncommon as mid-gen upgrades become more and more popular) so wouldn't overtime the cost balance kind of shift, so that, again, relatively speaking, MMOs don't become astronomically expensive to make? I mean, I don't know the budget for ESO, but it's clearly not some major workload for consoles. I can't imagine as much budget-per-asset went into that game as, say, even Skyrim, or Fallout 4.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,968
Brazil
Even if you consider a lower budget mmo, it still would be expensive to maintain, if not to develop.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,561
Australia
I'd love to see some smaller scale, weirder MMOs from indie devs. I've always wanted to play one, but I've never found one that really interested me.
 

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
Where did all that money go for Too Human?

Because it sure didn't show.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,778
Why create an mmo with constant updates, new content and continuous support when you can milk suckers with free to play games that have microtransactions? I mean, I'm assuming that is the mentality most devs that think about jumping into making one have anymore. Hell most of the mmo's I like lately seem to have super long content droughts and piddly, small updates when they finally do hit(here have one new short dungeon and maybe one raid that you will beat in an hour or two, see you for the next jank update in 6 months!).

Too expensive to make and maintain, and as I said people are fine with being nickled and dimed for bullshit so why wouldn't you go where the money is instead I guess. Sad too, I remember asheron's call for example getting content updates literally every single month. WOW probably has 10 times the crew and you'll never see anything like that.

I think its just too expensive and too much of a hassle to deal with. Make a hero shooter, battle royal, fps etc, get some streamers to heavily promote your game, throw in a cash shop, harpoon those whales and call it a day.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
The cost of developing has probably gone up like anything else, but if your question was more about "why not make an mmo, you can monetize it easily?" It comes down to making sure you got enough of a player base to sustain that monetization, and that requires content. Mmo players are notorious for blazing through content. If you don't have enough even at launch to keep them around, then no monetization plan in the world is going to make it profitable.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
WoW has had a non-stop development cycle for nearly 20 years now (released in 2004 and had been in development for 4-5 years prior to that). I would be absolutely shocked if its total costs didn't completely dwarf some of those games in the top 10 by now.

Same goes for Final Fantasy XIV, especially considering that pretty much the entire game was tossed into the bin and rebooted from the ground up a year or so after release. FFXIV gets a pile of brand new content every few months. I'm positive that its total development costs are greater than Final Fantasy VII, possibly every Final Fantasy game to date except XV.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,642
The FFXIV team is still like 250 devs internally, imagine the cost of 250-300 devs for the entire development of the game plus 10 years of post launch support.
 

Deleted member 14002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,121
Server infrastructure isn't cheap. People get MScs / PhDs in CS to even understand what's going on in such large distributed database systems.

This is correct.
Clearly MMOs are expensive. But have other AAA games become so expensive that there's no meaningful distinction between the two anymore?
They also have higher operating costs and require constant content updates provided in a timely manner.

As it stands now the existing AAA model of 60$ game + microtransactions + paid expansions seems to work best.

MMOs are either subscription based which requires a large commitment on the part of the user, or F2P.

Most AAA devs are happy with the 60$ price as that is ~= to a 6 month sub, and then having smaller paid expansions (which would be free in an mmo), then a big expansion for the full price starting year 2.

It all essentially equals out, mtx is gravy on top, and they hit a wider user base because of the lack of commitment.
 

Xypher

Member
Oct 27, 2017
582
Germany
Clearly MMOs are expensive. But have other AAA games become so expensive that there's no meaningful distinction between the two anymore?
Even if they would cost roughly the same to make, MMOs always have a higher cost of failure. If you spend a big budget on developing your MMO and it doesn't take off immediately / your current playerbase / subscription numbers are not enough to cover your overhead costs (everything needed to maintain keeping the MMO online and supplied with content like employees, servers, office space etc.) what do you do?
1) Keep doing what you are doing right now, supplying patches to existing players to keep them engaged and hope for good word of mouth to lure in new players and expand your playerbase?
2) Cut your losses and take the game offline using your ressources on something else that may be more profitable, but risk pissing off your current playerbase and thus lose their support and lower the public opinion of your game?
3) Do an entire rework of the game to gain some good press and hope to draw in both old and new players with this "new game", like FF14?
If you do either 1) or 3) and it again does not take off, you have just sunk more money into a project which will have to be taken offline anyways endangering the livelihoods of your developers, because you can't pay them anymore / have to fire them to keep overhead costs low.
And you specifically said you wanted to talk about AAA MMOs from the big name publishers, so that risk is far greater as there will be more people relying on the game's success, so wouldn't it be easier to just make games that you simply sell once and update with a fixed content cycle in the form of a season pass, and then move on? The risk is far lower, as you only need to actually create the content you already promised, so even if the game doesn't do too well, the risks are easy to calculate ahead of time, while an MMO lives or dies by its playerbase, and that playerbase can only be maintained with frequent new content updates.
 

Com_Raven

Brand Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,103
Europa
Don't trust such lists that you find online about the most expensive games. Very few games have a publicly known budget, and among those where it is known, it is usually a wild mix of numbers only citing dev costs, and those where marketing is added in.

So any such list will always be largely incomplete or inaccurate
 

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,534
Indonesia
The playerbase just isn't there anymore. Even the biggest, long-running MMORPGs are starting to simplify their games and offer max level jump services and such. The MMO audience doesn't grow, it's the opposite. People who used to have lots of free times grinding in MMOs now have responsibilities and stopped playing or barely have the time to play MMOs anymore. Therefore, devs just don't make them anymore and shift to what you may call MMO-lite today, like Destiny, The Division, and Anthem.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,176
Morizora's Forest
I think even if the budget is similar the scale and experience you might look for is not quite the same. Granted, there are some MMO that aim for a smaller more tightly knit experience that falls closer to Destiny and The Division but majority of MMOs from my experience aim far greater than what these two games offer.

Some things to consider

Massive explorable worlds.
Multiple cities - the larger of which you will usually find dozens of players doing various activities or simply socialising. Mean while in Destiny, being unable to join a fire team at Tower because the Tower is at full capacity of 12 players is still a thing.
Simulation activities - Gathering, Crafting, Fishing, Mining, Farming, Diving, Platforming puzzles, Sailing, Racing, Cooking, Trading etc. Each of them having their own system and time sinks.
Economy - Trading between players or selling items on the market etc.
Massive PvP content - Not all MMOs I guess and duel or smaller group pvps are still popular I guess but it is hard to compare anything to the glorious mess that is a large group rushing an objective in a literal horde. Some call it zerging an objective and it is an apt description.

I think there is a place for Destiny and its style of games. It can take parts of the MMO experience and do well but it is also what frustrates me about Destiny. Some parts that make so much sense to bring to it, it doesn't do. LFG is a simple one off the top of my head.
 

Filur

Member
Oct 27, 2017
40
The playerbase just isn't there anymore. Even the biggest, long-running MMORPGs are starting to simplify their games and offer max level jump services and such. The MMO audience doesn't grow, it's the opposite. People who used to have lots of free times grinding in MMOs now have responsibilities and stopped playing or barely have the time to play MMOs anymore. Therefore, devs just don't make them anymore and shift to what you may call MMO-lite today, like Destiny, The Division, and Anthem.

The playerbase is definitely still there, it's just spread out over hundreds of games. MMOs are meant to be played long-term. Back when WoW launched there were only a few big titels on the market, nowadays the situation is entirely different. The big three or four (World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, FFXIV, Guild Wars 2) alone have hundreds of thousands of players.