Let's see once for all, do you like enemy level scaling in games?
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I appreciate the fact that level scaling tends to blunt some of the dissonance that comes from outleveling enemies in most games. This isn't an issue sometimes, when your character actually does become vastly stronger as per the game's own narrative (as in the farmboy to epic hero cliche), but most of the time the game's narrative won't really support the PC one-shotting enemies that were challenging not all that long ago. And dropping all challenge from encounters doesn't usually improve the feeling of an outleveled quest. Ideally, for me, earlier enemies should grow easier (but not too much easier) because you have access to a greater range of abilities or gear, not because the basic mathematics of combat have swung ludicrously in your favor.
That said, I get why people find level scaling frustrating, and it's easy to design a system that falls into the trap of essentially making you weaker as you level beyond a certain point. I think that's avoidable, though, with some care, although in practice most games I've played with level scaling do have that problem.
I generally think it's good to have as a toggle, so that players who loathe it can opt out.
That said, I get why people find level scaling frustrating, and it's easy to design a system that falls into the trap of essentially making you weaker as you level beyond a certain point. I think that's avoidable, though, with some care, although in practice most games I've played with level scaling do have that problem.
I generally think it's good to have as a toggle, so that players who loathe it can opt out.
In open world games..... yes.
I dont like how youre level gated in Witcher 3 and Modern Assassins Creed games. Whats the point of the open world when the game actively tries to set you on a predetermined path. Fallout New Vegas, one of my favourite games falls victim to this too.
Its why I think Skyrim, and even Fallout 4 do the better job as an open world.
I dont like how youre level gated in Witcher 3 and Modern Assassins Creed games. Whats the point of the open world when the game actively tries to set you on a predetermined path. Fallout New Vegas, one of my favourite games falls victim to this too.
Its why I think Skyrim, and even Fallout 4 do the better job as an open world.
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I'm under the impression 99% here has no clue how level scaling works, and still operates on some early 2000 conception of DDA.
Making you account for your choices. Just because it's an open world doesn't mean you should get access to everything all the time. As long as you're skilled or strong enough you can reach it - the world is still open, you just need to work for it. and even fallout 4/skyrim are like this too, you can't leave the vault straight to the institute, guess it isn't an open world then!
This was exactly what I was going to come in and post. I blame the old-school JRPGer in me; if I put in the time to become OP, let me be OP.
than just make it a linear game, it will lead to better level design. There is no choice, follow the predetermined path or lose to overleveled enemies. There is only one choice. The open worlds entire point is at odds with levelgating.
I don't like level scaling because it makes the game feel equally difficult throughout its entirety. If I want to enter an area with super hard enemies, I should be able to fight them and get my ass handed to me if I choose. Maybe one of them has a really good weapon that I can loot if I manage to kill him/her which is totally awesome as a low level. Level scaling feels like your going through a game with training wheels on, and I hate it.
Hate it. It's just a way to say the game has "RPG systems" while not having any at all.
Most games don't have level gating, just stronger enemies depending on the area and that's fair. You still can go there.
Most games don't have level gating, just stronger enemies depending on the area and that's fair. You still can go there.
choice and linearity do not gel well together
the CHOICE is there on an open world where one area is far more dangerous than the other to traverse. you as a player need to decide the risk/reward and take the safer suggested path or risk going "the wrong way". this is different from literal level gates that stop you from reaching areas no matter how skilled you are or even if you abused some dumb glitch or whatever, you simply dont have the OPTION of reaching said place. it's a completely different issue.
Open world does not mean easy world. You can go wherever you want whenever you want. You just might not survive.
And you can always grind and make it easy. In the case of Assassin's Creed no matter where you go, random enemies are always annoying to kill.
Ok I'm sorry I need to argue with you about this
First of all
Even in Chapter 3, the first chapter where the Crystarium is unlocked, you'll need to grind for about 20 minutes to max it out, even if you didn't skip a single encounter.
In Chapters 4-5 it takes around 30-60 minutes of grinding.
Chapters 7-9 anywhere from 1-2 hours.
And then from Chapter 10 onwards (which is roughly 55% through the game) if you want to max out the Crystarium for the chapter, you will need to grind for quite literally over 10 hours. Hell, that might be an understatement. The CP required for non-main Paradigm roles are insane.
So the people who complain about this just confuse me because from the get-go, you have to go out of your way to grind, even if you fought all enemies. And considering the fact that a majority of the first 9 chapters are less than 2 hours long, that would be a lot of time spent grinding.
it's about as annoying as when people bring up "Party Leader=Death," and then the ONE example they bring up is the final boss using Death.
Even though the game lets you retry/escape fights.
Even though the game allows you to just retry that particular phase of the fight as opposed to starting all over.
Even though the game sells Death-resistant accessories right outside the final boss.
Even though the game fully heals you after every fight and still gives EXP to non-active and dead party members.
Sorry I just went off on an unhinged rant but FFXIII really gets some unfair criticisms hurled at it
There should be an option for not liking levels at all. Ditch the levels and you lose the scaling issue.
But then every game would be an action/skill game only, I like to feel my character getting overpower.
In general I dislike it.
i think it boils down to two different perspectives that are irreconcilable trying to be reconciled.
1. Typical RPG Levelling = Custom difficulty level as determined by the player
2. Level scaling/no levelling = game experience controlled entirely by Devs.
RPG mechanics have been shown to be reasons to keep people playing longer so they are added to everything to drive user engagement.
There have been good solutions in lots of games to fix the issue of being overpowered by typical RPG mechanics from Diablo like NG+ where basic enemies become BS via gear modifiers and skilled players push past that challenge to something like Xenoblade 2 where you can set your level backwards at inns if you become over leveled
honestly I feel that most games that have level scaling should just not have stats when you level. Give the player gear or skills but don't change their stats
i think it boils down to two different perspectives that are irreconcilable trying to be reconciled.
1. Typical RPG Levelling = Custom difficulty level as determined by the player
2. Level scaling/no levelling = game experience controlled entirely by Devs.
RPG mechanics have been shown to be reasons to keep people playing longer so they are added to everything to drive user engagement.
There have been good solutions in lots of games to fix the issue of being overpowered by typical RPG mechanics from Diablo like NG+ where basic enemies become BS via gear modifiers and skilled players push past that challenge to something like Xenoblade 2 where you can set your level backwards at inns if you become over leveled
honestly I feel that most games that have level scaling should just not have stats when you level. Give the player gear or skills but don't change their stats
It's part of why I like Symphony of the Night so much. Symphony of the Night is one of the greatest games ever.
Level scaling sucks in many ways but is OK in few instances.
In Final Fantasy 8 to avoid scaling, you don't want to fight normal enemies at all unless you card them or are mandatory (in which cases you downlevel them to 1 to get least possible EXP to prevent level ups). Not good.
In Nioh 1/Nioh 2 Twilight-missions your stats get scaled down to around mission level, but that's okay since they are completely optional challenges. Good.
In open world action RPG games, "the world grows with you"-reasoning doesn't make sense if the enemy doesn't get new moves and better drops that make them worth fighting. Either good or bad depending how they approach it.
In some strategy games (like Heroes of Might and Magic 2), random enemy troops placed in maps get additional units (and therefore increased attack/defense per enemy) if you keep delaying fighting them. In this case, it's perfectly fine.
In RPGs, I'd rather them not scale at all unless they make it worthwhile and give a reason to fight them again.
In Final Fantasy 8 to avoid scaling, you don't want to fight normal enemies at all unless you card them or are mandatory (in which cases you downlevel them to 1 to get least possible EXP to prevent level ups). Not good.
In Nioh 1/Nioh 2 Twilight-missions your stats get scaled down to around mission level, but that's okay since they are completely optional challenges. Good.
In open world action RPG games, "the world grows with you"-reasoning doesn't make sense if the enemy doesn't get new moves and better drops that make them worth fighting. Either good or bad depending how they approach it.
In some strategy games (like Heroes of Might and Magic 2), random enemy troops placed in maps get additional units (and therefore increased attack/defense per enemy) if you keep delaying fighting them. In this case, it's perfectly fine.
In RPGs, I'd rather them not scale at all unless they make it worthwhile and give a reason to fight them again.
I answered "no," although I don't have a problem with level scaling with a certain range, i.e., a given enemy would have levels ranging from 1-5). It lets you feel your power grow without immediately overpowering enemies.
I hate level scaling personally. I like being able to get midway through a game, go back to the starting area for sidequests, and roll everything.
what doesnt make sense is the pauper bandits from the starting village who were attacking to steal their food getting a full set of top tier armour just because i forgot to kill them and came back months later
who knew the cure for poverty was just waiting it out
To be fair that makes no less sense than killing 10000 bandits and then being able to take on the Grand Wizard Dragon God
Nice post, don't apologize, I only played that trilogy in 2020 and I absolutely loved FF XIII even with its flaws.
It's my bad, not a fair example for what I had in mind. Let's just say that usually in games I like being able to make my characters a lot stronger than intended as soon as possible even if difficulty eventually catches up with me.
For instance, repeating the same checkpoint in Ratchet and Clank for a while until my 2/3 starter weapons are maxed out and max health increased (used to do this as a kid, not anymore). Wouldn't have been as fun if enemies in the same level (or later when visiting previous levels) would still quickly kill me, wouldn't die faster, or if I had to reach a specific game moment to level up beyond X value.
I think in FF13 I farmed for a while by running in circles with respawning enemies, and just wished I could already spend my extra CP "for fun" rather than wait until the next chapter, but I wasn't having a bad experience with it, I understand why it's designed like that especially with linear level design and I still annihilated enemies. Wish I could remember my FF8 playthrough but it's been 10 years and I have no idea what my feelings were for its scaling.
It kinda does, yes. Theres a tiny speckle of sense in getting better at killing armies of lowly bandits and using the experience (in its literal sense) to kill bigger, more dangerous things. Every chicken thief and lowly scoundrel in the entire world getting a full set of high value gear just because you're strong however doesnt.
And that's not to say about common enemies also getting buffed to hell. Why does this random rat now have more health and attack than the bosses of the entire first 2/3 of the game
Level scaling makes the game much less rewarding, and backtracking very annoying. In games that allow it, I'll counteract the scaling myself when mopping up quests in starter areas. I change difficult to very easy when going back so I can blast lower mobs away. Clad in end game gear, I'm not going to waste my time with HP sponges. Devs probably like it to pad game length.
Generally no, but in recent AC games I overlevel content so fast that the game would be fundamentally broken without scaling.
At least you get to choose how aggressive it is based, which is probably the best way to do it.
At least you get to choose how aggressive it is based, which is probably the best way to do it.
holy shit didn't expect the results to be so lopsided.
But I miss the fear of stumbling into a high-level area you're not supposed to be in.
but I do like the implementation in wow now, since it allows you to level alts in whatever zones/questlines you want.
But I miss the fear of stumbling into a high-level area you're not supposed to be in.
but I do like the implementation in wow now, since it allows you to level alts in whatever zones/questlines you want.
Strangely, the only game where I don't mind it. I loved drawing an insane amount of spells.
Final Fantasy 8 no level up challenge is great. Bit of a grind here and there, but the game makes it possible. The game even gets more difficult if you are too high level. Only game in history where level scaling worked and was fun.
It's absolutely dreadful 99% of the time and the only time I can think of that I do like it is FF8 because it's used in an interesting fashion and you can overpower yourself in 500 different ways including abusing that enemies gain new spells at specific level intervals.
I hate, hate, haaaate the thinking that if someone doesn't like something here, they 'don't understand it'.
I dislike in general it doesn't feel good to me. It feels more like I'm very slowly unlocking abilities rather than getting stronger a lot of the time.
if you have program any level scaling in any game, please explain to me how this can work in a RPG ? Because I'm a programmer for like 18 years, I understand what happen behind and not a single RPG was able to make it work properly. The game became unbalance, or remove any sense of progression. Even some Y's game have stat scaling and it just doesn't work, and probably nobody here know it.
I didn't vote, because a binary yes or no choice doesn't allow for any middle ground. Level scaling often isn't great, but it can have its uses and be preferable to no scaling at all.
Case in point: The Witcher 3. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have the same creature (e.g. a wolf) present a wildly different threat level just based on the area it's in (say, Velen vs. Skellige). Nor does it make any sense for Geralt to be able to blow away something like a vampire in two seconds simply because it's in an early-game area and ranked fifteen levels below Geralt's current level.
Yes, the better design would be to simply get rid of leveling altogether - some mods for TW3 do exactly that, and it's amazing - but between the Souls-like gatekeeping of vanilla and properly-implemented level scaling, I think the latter would work much better for this particular game.
Case in point: The Witcher 3. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have the same creature (e.g. a wolf) present a wildly different threat level just based on the area it's in (say, Velen vs. Skellige). Nor does it make any sense for Geralt to be able to blow away something like a vampire in two seconds simply because it's in an early-game area and ranked fifteen levels below Geralt's current level.
Yes, the better design would be to simply get rid of leveling altogether - some mods for TW3 do exactly that, and it's amazing - but between the Souls-like gatekeeping of vanilla and properly-implemented level scaling, I think the latter would work much better for this particular game.
Quick answer:
No, I like seeing the benefit of my grinding/gear upgrades.
Longer answer:
Give me the option to enable it, if I want. If a game has fun enough or engaging enough gameplay, I may want it on so I can have longer fights with enemies because I just like combat. Spider-Man and Miles Morales are examples of games where I'd like to have scaled enemies, because I just love the combat in those games.
No, I like seeing the benefit of my grinding/gear upgrades.
Longer answer:
Give me the option to enable it, if I want. If a game has fun enough or engaging enough gameplay, I may want it on so I can have longer fights with enemies because I just like combat. Spider-Man and Miles Morales are examples of games where I'd like to have scaled enemies, because I just love the combat in those games.