I'm paraphrasing mind you. I don't remember exactly what the crones said, only that it implied Ciri never slept with anybody.
Let's talk about female leads and the lack of romantic relationships.
- Thread starter BossAttack
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I'm paraphrasing mind you. I don't remember exactly what the crones said, only that it implied Ciri never slept with anybody.
God help my search history for looking this up but it's ambiguous in the game. The Crone says something along the lines of "has she ever felt the touch of a man", sniffs her, then something like "nevermind".
Straight white dudes are catered to the majority of the time, not non-white folks so it does play a part in target demographics.
I wonder if this is affect by your choices when you play as Ciri.
This is so spot on lol. It's how I felt watching The Boys S2 at times. That said I largely play games with female lead characters (and usually choose female when there's the option), and agree with the premise of this thread that there would be more exploration of relationships from female characters' perspectives.
I'd rather have no romance than for it to be poorly shoehorned into the game. Video game relationships are often times pretty poorly implemented.
For HZD it felt like there were potential romances planned but they were scrapped. There's very clearly conversation hooks for romance with several characters but you don't have the option to actually pursue anything.
It feels like a logical next step in Forbidden West to explore those relationships depending on who all gets to return. Female protagonists should definitely get to have romance.
For HZD it felt like there were potential romances planned but they were scrapped. There's very clearly conversation hooks for romance with several characters but you don't have the option to actually pursue anything.
It feels like a logical next step in Forbidden West to explore those relationships depending on who all gets to return. Female protagonists should definitely get to have romance.
Pretty much every RPG element in HZD felt tacked on, tbf. Convo choices were essentially meaningless (unless it was an "accept or refuse quest"- type question), and the progression system was such that you"d unlock every skill by the end of the game anyway.
Forbidden West has a lot of room for improvement in many areas, but I doubt they're going to spend a lot of time creating actual choice and consequence systems. Horizon is primarily a game about hunting and dismantling robots; I have a feeling that'll remain the main focus. Getting more interesting quests and less fetching would be a good compromise.
I think this misses the point of the contrast in the opening. That video game romances are shallow and poorly written is unlikely to change in the near future, nor is it likely that male protagonist will have heterosexual romances less frequently. The point of identifying the lack of romances for female protagonist is to please female players. Since the standard romance in a video game is on the level of "that character is cute. I want to be with them", there is no problem with adding romantic subplots that read like genre fiction for female protagonists. The point is that women should be able to vicariously romance that cute guy in the game through the female protagonist.
+1, shit usually feels so forced in games just to titulate. I don't mind it existing though and I totally welcome more female led relationships in games.I'm against all romantic relationships in video games.
(But seriously its probably because publishers fear male gamers would end up uncomfortable playing as a female character who has a relationship with a man.)
Hellblade seems like a good example of this, a woman who was very in love with a man and really dives into her grief and how important the relationship was to her due to being isolated from the rest of the village. Obviously, the game ended up being an amazing storytelling experience, but I really don't think most game writers can take that risk. Either it's too far out of their comfort zone as far as subjects they've practiced writing about or they're getting too much pushback from above. I'm sure a lot of publishers have old-fashioned opinions on what sells.
But I would say a game like Metroid probably does not need Samus to be expressing her humanity because the whole thing is about how she's absolutely alone in an alien environment. To me, Samus is Samus before anything else.
But I would say a game like Metroid probably does not need Samus to be expressing her humanity because the whole thing is about how she's absolutely alone in an alien environment. To me, Samus is Samus before anything else.
I'm against all romantic relationships in video games.
These are basically my thoughts. Romantic subplots are pretty uninteresting to me personally. And it'd be pretty cool if Aloy was actually established as Asexual Aromantic, but I'm not holding my breath.
Bit of a side note to the topic at hand but I really don't get the argument that their shouldn't be romantic relationships etc at all in video games. Like I thought we were passed this by now? Like all stories it can be written poorly or extremely well, we shouldn't just not try.
There are tons of great indie games which are almost entirely about relationships that are critically acclaimed.
There are tons of great indie games which are almost entirely about relationships that are critically acclaimed.
The fact that there are 0 mlm, 1-3 wlw & 1-3 wlm AAA games ever in existence just shows how important the choose your romantic interest games are in that space. I'm dying for rep and it anoys me everyone saying no romance, you're enabling zero representation on this front :( unintentionally of course.
If Assassin's Creed Valhalla redistributed the writing budget of a bunch of those entire zones that weren't needed into 4 major romance arcs that wove into the main story we'd have a major step forward for representation.
The best Bioware character arcs are great, people only reference the bad ones, hopeful for DA4!
If Assassin's Creed Valhalla redistributed the writing budget of a bunch of those entire zones that weren't needed into 4 major romance arcs that wove into the main story we'd have a major step forward for representation.
The best Bioware character arcs are great, people only reference the bad ones, hopeful for DA4!
I wouldn't say she has no interesting characters in the supporting cast, but yeah, there are few of those. Highlighted by, for instance, her interactions with Nil, easiest the best supporting character in the game. Whenever they interacted, it was a blast.
Nil: These little moments are refreshing aren't they?
Aloy: That could be the least creepy thing you've said to me.
Nil: That glimpse of yourself in their eyes just as the cloud of death passes over them.
Aloy: Nevermind, there it goes.
it would be funny if Ashly Burch ended up vocing two of the only canon ace characters in major video games
Never put much thought into this which I guess means I am part of the problem. But yes I agree with you that developers seem apprehensive about broaching those types of relationships. Romantic involvement for me is a good motivator in games so I would like to see more of that when it comes to female leads in games.
Fair enought
I can't recall no one
I have to apologize then. Maybe someone did and I've just make a wrong user quote. I'm sorry
I honestly can't answer you with absolute confidence. But I certainly take it for granted that any relationship to the male universe, in video games, is really uncommon, in video games unless they're RPG with free choices. Just take the case of a homosexual male as a canon character. I can't help but notice, in video games and video gamers in general, a lower presence of women>human or man-> relationships.
But, I repeat, maybe I'm wrong and my mistake is because I haven't played all the existing games on the market
It must be said, however, that, in Hellblade, Senua's beloved, he is a dead character. There is no active romance that the player experiences at that time
I hope 4 months isn't too old of a thread to bump for a topic like this, especially me being so new. I've just been desperate to find people talking about it and this exact thread is what had me making an account.
Romantic subplots in games have always been my favorite. But I only got to play them from the male-perspective until I found create-a-character games and got comfy there. I wanted to play as a woman, I wanted to go on adventures or save the world, and I preferred a bit of romance while they were at it. After cutting down on playing male-lead games, I only ever got the romantic plots in optional side quests of the create-a-character games, but that didn't actually click until I played Horizon after Cyberpunk got me so mad I almost quit playing games entirely (but it wasn't because of the delays, bugs, or generally botched release.)
Without any spoilers, Cyberpunk kind of fell into the same mentality: straight female V's love interest is hidden in a side quest chain and is entirely avoidable. Most of the people I played with didn't even meet him. Straight male V's love interest is in the main quest and she has twice the content on top of that. I made the mistake of going to CDPR's forums and Reddit looking for people to commiserate with, and seeing the massive amount of people that refused to even entertain that it might be a problem was too much. It felt like the devs forgot they invited straight women to the party and had to scramble to check that box last minute. In her own game, my poor V was just a generic version of their intended straight, male V.
Ended up giving Horizon a try a few months later, and I loved it. I did notice the very blunt shut-downs of flirty comments, when Aloy even noticed they made them, but it was easy to let it slide for most part. The ending talks were really sweet, and I got pretty attached to Erend. Risked going back to Reddit to see what people thought of Erend being in the Forbidden West demo, gauge how likely people thought it was he might be a potential love interest, and whoo that was a trip. The top comments on "what do you want/not want for the next game" posts were usually some guy saying he thought it was "refreshing" that Aloy wasn't man-obsessed or forced into a romance and that they hoped it carried for the rest of the series, with a chain of guys agreeing. As if we're drowning in female leads that are allowed to have any other emotion besides anger and contemplative stoicism. It led me down a winding Google rabbit hole to find these games they were sick of, and basically found nothing but threads like this one with varying degrees of support and disgust depending on the site.
If they gave Aloy a canon love interest, those commenters could pick up any other game and the odds are spectacular that it will be "for" them. But point at any random female lead you'd like to find someone special and you'll get a thousand excuses why "not that one!!" She's too focused. She's got more important things to worry about. She's too independent. She just doesn't seem interested. It's unbelievably alienating and disheartening, but I can't quite word why. It's just exhausting.
Long post short... I agree:
Romantic subplots in games have always been my favorite. But I only got to play them from the male-perspective until I found create-a-character games and got comfy there. I wanted to play as a woman, I wanted to go on adventures or save the world, and I preferred a bit of romance while they were at it. After cutting down on playing male-lead games, I only ever got the romantic plots in optional side quests of the create-a-character games, but that didn't actually click until I played Horizon after Cyberpunk got me so mad I almost quit playing games entirely (but it wasn't because of the delays, bugs, or generally botched release.)
Without any spoilers, Cyberpunk kind of fell into the same mentality: straight female V's love interest is hidden in a side quest chain and is entirely avoidable. Most of the people I played with didn't even meet him. Straight male V's love interest is in the main quest and she has twice the content on top of that. I made the mistake of going to CDPR's forums and Reddit looking for people to commiserate with, and seeing the massive amount of people that refused to even entertain that it might be a problem was too much. It felt like the devs forgot they invited straight women to the party and had to scramble to check that box last minute. In her own game, my poor V was just a generic version of their intended straight, male V.
Ended up giving Horizon a try a few months later, and I loved it. I did notice the very blunt shut-downs of flirty comments, when Aloy even noticed they made them, but it was easy to let it slide for most part. The ending talks were really sweet, and I got pretty attached to Erend. Risked going back to Reddit to see what people thought of Erend being in the Forbidden West demo, gauge how likely people thought it was he might be a potential love interest, and whoo that was a trip. The top comments on "what do you want/not want for the next game" posts were usually some guy saying he thought it was "refreshing" that Aloy wasn't man-obsessed or forced into a romance and that they hoped it carried for the rest of the series, with a chain of guys agreeing. As if we're drowning in female leads that are allowed to have any other emotion besides anger and contemplative stoicism. It led me down a winding Google rabbit hole to find these games they were sick of, and basically found nothing but threads like this one with varying degrees of support and disgust depending on the site.
If they gave Aloy a canon love interest, those commenters could pick up any other game and the odds are spectacular that it will be "for" them. But point at any random female lead you'd like to find someone special and you'll get a thousand excuses why "not that one!!" She's too focused. She's got more important things to worry about. She's too independent. She just doesn't seem interested. It's unbelievably alienating and disheartening, but I can't quite word why. It's just exhausting.
Long post short... I agree:
If there is a canon love interest I have no problem, but personally, I don't want to be romancing different guys or girls just for the sake of having a romance in the game.
Now it's been a hot minute since I read the Witcher books but I believe it's implied a handful of times over the series that Ciri is bisexual. It does not happen often but there are a few times in the book series where it seemed like she was open to the idea of doing the deed with a guy. But things always got in the way so we never find out if she is into it.
The games seem to follow the same line of keeping it ambiguous of where she leans on men. Specifically there's a scene when she visits a sauna/spring where the game lets you pick if she's into men or not.
Also sorry for responding to your old comment lol.
OP
OP
I get that, it I really do. But as a black woman, I hate it because of how unhealthy, toxic and tiring it can be. Now if its poorly written that's a problem, but I wish writers were more diverse in the way they write women and didn't default to "don't need a man" mannerisms.
That. They keep taking "strong, independent woman who doesn't need a man" at face value and refusing to let go of it. They don't have to need a man, but they can want or enjoy one. Where's the grey area between "she's powerful alone" and "she can't function without a man"?
I hope it was okay, this thread just hit that perfect sweet spot with "I'm angry that there's no female leads with love interests" and the more targeted "I'm specifically, freshly angry that people are denying Aloy deserves affection."
The earliest part of my life was in a time where women didn't have permission from the bank to open bank accounts without their husband's approval. Not needing a man, for a multitude of reasons, was part of the women in the workforce movements from the late 70's at least through through early '90's. This has been part of the formative years of plenty of people.
So definitely yes to writers being more diverse in their characters' senses of self and the leases they give themselves in their relationships, but that doesn't necessarily mean that these characters are formed from face value or a stance of toxicity.
So definitely yes to writers being more diverse in their characters' senses of self and the leases they give themselves in their relationships, but that doesn't necessarily mean that these characters are formed from face value or a stance of toxicity.
I feel like we even saw this kind of mindset change within a few years of gaming. When Bayonetta was released Anita Sarkeesian made a video lamenting of how the game gives her the role of a (albeit reluctant) mother to a little child, criticizing that it falls into gender roles. Now, 10 years later, people are asking where all the mothers in gaming are after the amount of "sad dad" games.
So yeah, I don't think it always comes from toxicity but from different perceptions which can change quite dramatically within a decade.
She also brings him specifically when speaking at Rost's grave.
I really hope that Varl isn't forgotten about in the sequel. I like him a lot (and think him and Aloy are cute together) even though he didn't get much screen time but it seems like I'm the only person that remembers him :(
I don't think it's 100% toxic or malicious, there's a lot of things that contribute to the trend that are both positive and negative. There's a whole spectrum, but we're only seeing one type of strong woman protag in AA and AAA games. It could be an over-correction, but it's a massively convenient one if that one type happens to be the one that men have expressed they're most comfortable playing as. A woman? That kicks a lot of ass? AND she's uninterested in human connections/powerful emotions? Ground-breaking!
But it's not. Strong Female Character has basically become a joke at this point. Your heart can be in the right place while still missing the mark. It's tiring, as a woman, to keep getting offered these characters by male writers/devs like they're presenting some brand new idea that women don't need men to be complete. We know. Women have known. It's like writing a female character that hates the color pink, because "girls don't have to like pink!" That's correct. We do not have to. Do those same men know that a reason a lot of girls go through a stage of despising the color pink is because we're mocked for it? We're treated badly for appreciating it, like we're stupid and air-headed? Is that taken into account when they wrote this character that hates pink? Or are they just writing a character that is rejecting something widely mocked as "feminine" (like romance and strong emotions have historically been) and calling that her strength? Why must feminine = weak?
But it's not. Strong Female Character has basically become a joke at this point. Your heart can be in the right place while still missing the mark. It's tiring, as a woman, to keep getting offered these characters by male writers/devs like they're presenting some brand new idea that women don't need men to be complete. We know. Women have known. It's like writing a female character that hates the color pink, because "girls don't have to like pink!" That's correct. We do not have to. Do those same men know that a reason a lot of girls go through a stage of despising the color pink is because we're mocked for it? We're treated badly for appreciating it, like we're stupid and air-headed? Is that taken into account when they wrote this character that hates pink? Or are they just writing a character that is rejecting something widely mocked as "feminine" (like romance and strong emotions have historically been) and calling that her strength? Why must feminine = weak?
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing concerns around representation in a sensitive thread; related prior infractions
I really dislike that line you just quoted - because of what Horizon means to me. Let me explain: otherwise, I would totally agree - please, more games with realistic female characters and realistic depictions of their sexuality. I love a good romance subplot and I prefer female leads - and I like them having relationships. I get that this is avoided because of male gamers and I am annoyed with it, too. But relationships are not needed in every game. Horizon is a special game for me and Aloy is my favorite character - because she is a unique person in a conservative society, because she stands on the side of reason and knowledge instead of superstition, faith or spirituality. Not every game needs to have a romantic subplot.
I get it, it sucks that many male-led games have that romantic angle and female-led games don't. It sucks and the reason for it sucks. But that doesn't mean every game needs to have sexuality, regardless of the main character. Sure, give me Uncharted 5 with Chloe as the lead, and give her a meaningful relationship with a man. Or a casual one, whatever. Give me a new TLOU with Abby and let her have relationships, I loved her relationship with Owen. I was genuinely touched whenever he expressed his feelings towards her, and I was really sad when she didn't respond in the way he wanted. Give Lara Croft a romantic interest in the next game. But cut it out with this "Let Aloy Fuck" - not every game needs to have sexuality or romance of any kind.
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I don't think I will though, because right now pretty much none of the games with female leads are about sexuality or have romantic subplots, let alone every one. I'm glad Aloy was a female lead that resonated with you so strongly, but she resonated with me too. I grew up in a conservative household in a conservative town, science-denying and all. It sucked. On top of that, I was once grounded because they thought I kissed a boy. I hadn't, but I got grounded anyway just in case I was thinking about it. Women (even as girls) have to walk this line between being available to the men that want them while never expressing any sort of desire of their own. Aloy doesn't lose her wit if she kisses Varl. She doesn't lose the ability to draw her bow if she holds Erend's hand.
The game is rated T, we know they're not going to show her banging anyone. I'm sorry this thread and that particular joke annoys you, but honestly? It's pretty annoying the argument that "women aren't lesser people if they have feelings" still needs to be made.
I won't. Don't tell me what to do.
Also, what flannelcakes said above.
I have absolutely nothing against it and I'd love to see it explored in a, hopefully, more mature and tasteful way than most game relationships are.
To me, the reason why we rarely see it in games is fairly obvious, I imagine it has something to do with the culture and leadership structures that most development studios have, but that's a can of worms I don't have the disposition for, or enough knowledge about, to properly discuss. I just hope it improves soon and that it becomes less of a taboo for developers.
To me, the reason why we rarely see it in games is fairly obvious, I imagine it has something to do with the culture and leadership structures that most development studios have, but that's a can of worms I don't have the disposition for, or enough knowledge about, to properly discuss. I just hope it improves soon and that it becomes less of a taboo for developers.
It truly was relentless in the best possible way.
I cannot be convinced they didn't steal Erend's eyebrows from the demo in an attempt to break the hold he has on my heart, but it can't be done. If the mutton chops couldn't taint the "lovable oaf" charm, nothing will. After FO4 refused to let Nick Valentine be romanced, I'll never believe The Man™ knows what women want.
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FO4 was one of my biggest hurts. Nick and Deacon were 2 of my favorite companions. Neither of them was an option.
An absolute tragedy. We definitely need at least 3 established female leads to smooch some NPCs to make up for not being able to get to know Deacon in the biblical way. I mean... his name was Deacon. I've talked to more than one dude that was confused that women were disappointed Vik and Takemura from CP77 weren't options.
Devs won't give canon female leads love interests, they don't wanna give create-a-character leads "unusual" options. Why don't they want us to have any fun?
Oh, I agree. I pretty much agree with everything you said, and I'm not here to argue with you.
The joke annoys me, yes, but it has nothing to do with women (as I said, I agree with you there) and I feel I won't be able to convince anyone that I mean this particular game and not games in general. And also, it's not really the topic of the thread, so I'll leave it at that.
Obviously, I didn't mean it literally. It's a matter of speech, of course I can't tell anyone here what to do or think, nor would I want to. I apologize it came off that way.
I get people who don't want any of it because it's usually done poorly. But it sticks out like a sore thumb in games where other options do exist. And even then, games could do a better job of actively representing people who are asexual and/or aromantic.
Take Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Kassandra. The majority of romance options with men are comedic in nature, and are a small sliver relative to the deluge of women horny for Kass. (This also hurts the options for people playing as Alexios and the gay romance options.) What's more baffling is that there's a total beefcake you share important scenes with and have a lot of chemistry with. So many bizarre missed opportunities.
It says a lot when the most notable examples for me are still one or two PS1-era JRPGs where the woman in question usually gains or retakes the reigns of her life where she previously had no control. Let women have desires, fall in love or lust and have the option to pursue it, make mistakes, be vulnerable and strong in different ways, experiment with their gender identities and roles, and yes, fuck. Give women agency.
Take Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Kassandra. The majority of romance options with men are comedic in nature, and are a small sliver relative to the deluge of women horny for Kass. (This also hurts the options for people playing as Alexios and the gay romance options.) What's more baffling is that there's a total beefcake you share important scenes with and have a lot of chemistry with. So many bizarre missed opportunities.
It says a lot when the most notable examples for me are still one or two PS1-era JRPGs where the woman in question usually gains or retakes the reigns of her life where she previously had no control. Let women have desires, fall in love or lust and have the option to pursue it, make mistakes, be vulnerable and strong in different ways, experiment with their gender identities and roles, and yes, fuck. Give women agency.
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You'd think with the popularity of Hunger Games, that videogame companies would want to tap into that demographic with female protagonists and have love interests. Then again, having mostly male writers in videogames compared to books and films, kind of messes that up in how to cater.
It really feels like money's being left on the table given how colossal those demographics are in other media. Especially in the realm of RPGs. It's such a glaring void. But I guess the diversity issue does lead to the people present "writing what you know". (And execs having already decided their target demo.) Like...there are many games where you play as fathers; where the hell are the moms?
Exactly, and as established in classic videogame lore, moms are tough so surely it can cater to the straight dudes too.
This reminds me to start playing Amnesia 2. Edith Finch was good for this and also devastating. There lies the stereotype of moms having a tough life and pregnancy is traumatic, so also not very beneficial 🤷🏾