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Phabh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,724
This is not a thread to shit on God Of War, so please, no drive-by posts.
The latest God Of War is a good to excellent game and I can't see any gamer seriously giving it any less than a 7. It does too much things very well to score lower. Still, a bunch of game design choices prevented me to enjoy it as much as I could have. This thread is to talk about God Of War's game design and how it could be improved in a sequel.

3 main aspects put me out of the experience:

1) The collectathon aspect.
The flow of the game is constantly interruped by collecting loot on the ground, opening small and big chests, breaking hanging buckets, hidden artefacts and so on. It would be interesting to know how many collectibles and chests there is in the world because it must be huge. There's a chest every 50 meters in this world and most of those treasures were not meaningful rewards, which brings me to my second point.

2) The needless stat system aspect.
All those collectibles are used to upgrade your gear and unlock new abilities but all the RPG elements are mostly superfluous. The main quest is linear and the enemies are always at the same level as the natural evolution of your character in the story. As a result, you never feel stronger. What's the point then? The game could have ditched the stats altogether (or make them way simpler, like in say, BOTW) and nothing of value would have been lost, the collectathon aspect would have been reduced and less time wasted to upgrade your gear just to match the enemy level in the main path.

3) The mass market and old fashioned level design aspect.
The interactive elements of the levels are very obvious, unnatural and in your face. The climbing paths are all well marked with golden signs showing you a clearly linear path where all you can do is push one direction, you can't drop from any heights. The climbing is slow, brain-dead and probably just there to hide load times. Jumping is reduced to a button-prompt, you can't even fall or fail navigation. Exploration is very limited. The lake is just a pretty hub with clearly marked access points to linear paths leading to the main objective of each branch. The exploration just consists of combing all small dead ends hiding mostly a chest. There isn't any interconnection with other areas and the metroidvania aspect of unlocking new abilities to access new areas is just used to reach previously inaccessible chests. An objective marker is also shown on-screen (that you can desactivate) but the game isn't built without it in mind and the map is not detailed enough to help you with navigation.
The level design was also very reminiscent of RE4, which is now 13 years old. The environments, while very pretty, are quite static and non-interactive, except for clearly designated objects. Everything seemed very rigid, with invisible walls, no swimming allowed and no physics or dynamic systems in place. The use of pretty skyboxes and impressive paintings as backgrounds is a technique that isn't working on me anymore, it makes the game world a bit fake and immaterial looking.

Other points that could see improvements:

- The menus and equipment screens were cumbersome and not intuitive for the majority of my time with the game.
- The special abilities were all very similar and activated by the exact same inputs (L1 + R1, L1 + R2 or L1 + O). The actual number of unique possible inputs for combos is not that varied. All special attacks had mostly the same effect to me.
- The bestiary was pretty limited with lots of identical looking enemies with different color schemes. The tactic to defeat bigger enemies was mostly always the same.
- Lots of fights could be cheesed by throwing your axe from a distance and abusing Rage when facing resistant enemies or being overwhelmed.
- The puzzles were mostly very simple and repetitive, particularly the ones involving the blue runes to unlock yet another chest. Most of the required item to "solve" a puzzle were merely 50 meters away from its intended use.
- The journey was a bit too long given the limited diversity of gameplay situations. The fact the main goal of the journey was not that stimulating to me, not helped by the various setbacks (sometimes very stupid) encountered time and time again.

Please discuss (with effort ;))
 
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CarthOhNoes

Someone is plagiarizing this post
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,181
I respect your effort but there's no way this thread will end well!

I thought the game was utterly outstanding but I agree that the stats system wasn't really necessary. I think they could have kept some of the RPG elements without having Kratos "level up".
 

FiXalaS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,569
Kuwait.
I wish I could participate in this calm discussion, I will play the game soon and join you. but regarding the linearity I don't see the issue with that for this kind of game.
 

Manu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,191
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Enemy and boss variety was seriously my only complaint. I understand it wasn't a priority for the team, but I can't help looking at how Souls for example gives you unique enemies and tons of bosses on every game, with new enemies every time you reach a new area. But fodder enemies were never the forte of God of War so I can live with that. Just give me more bosses next time.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,001
Press the touch pad it tells you how many collectables there is on the map.

Are you seriously knocking the game for been linear? What's the obsession with big open souless world's...


The only complaint I had is there needed to be more death animations for when you hit R3.
 

CanisMajoris

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
892
Half of your statements are not true and the other half are subjective views about the design that was chosen for this game (and are very well integrated)
 

Aokiji

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,265
Los Angeles
1) The collectathon aspect.
You mean collecting the money & materials to upgrade your gear? Because the rest is lore stuff

2) The needless stat system aspect.
As a result, you never feel stronger.
When you face the Valkyries and dimension rifts before and after upgrades you certainly feel stronger. The enemies in the story are scaled for the story as they should be?

3) The mass market and old fashioned level design aspect.
The interactive elements of the levels are very obvious, unnatural and in your face. The climbing paths are all well marked with golden signs showing you a clearly linear path where all you can do is push one direction, you can't drop from any heights. The climbing is slow, brain-dead and probably just there to hide load times. Jumping is reduced to a button-prompt, you can't even fall or fail navigation. Exploration is very limited.
This is the one I truly don't get. It's an extremely cinematic game. The traversal is there to add verticality to the game. You want pointless fail-access just to have it there?
 

Mary Celeste

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,352
None of those things you mentioned have really hampered my experience, but there are some minor frustrations I have that are making the post game very annoying

fast travel is way too cumbersome. you have to sit through a ten second animation just to see the menu for fast travel points. it takes way too long to get to where you want to go. I understand the game is loading during these sequences but there must have been a better way. at least auto-load me into the new area when the load is done, rather than make me walk to a door and press a prompt.

ressurection stones are annoying. I don't like having to fast travel to a shop to buy a new one every time I need to stock up, because it takes so damn long! I wish there were shops near every major post game challenge (each valkyrie, every muspelheim challenge) to help ease this problem.

there's definitely too much climbing around during regular gameplay, it can make going back through areas to pick up collectables a hassle because several sections of each zone is divided by a fifteen second climb up a small hill.
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,493
The combat is really fun at lower levels, but the higher up you go the more the game seems content to overwhelm you and expect everything to flow well. Some enemies just straight-up weren't fun to fight, like Dark Elf Lords. It's also a little too easy to just cheese runic attacks and talismans, especially a particular few that focus on massive damage, AOE crowd control, or both.
 

squidyj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,670
1. It has rpg mechanics, I guess you don't like RPGs but that seems more like a personal preference of yours and not a particularly compelling reason to completely manhandle the term collectathon. I suppose maybe the artifact sets, the ravens, and the lore items can qualify as collectathon items but I would hardly say that those feature so prominently as to be obnoxious. The rest of everything is just loot.
2. Sure if you only follow the direct story 1 for 1 you will be on level such that you don't feel that you NEED to go do other stuff but if you, i don't know, try some side content you can in fact become more powerful, I promise it's true I've done it.
Your complaints about the world and your 'doneness' with skyboxes (is that a thing? can you be done with skyboxes?) similarly read like personal issues and are difficult criticisms to interact with when you fail to offer counterexamples as to what you would prefer.

A lot of these other things seem to again be disagreements with design decisions intended to make the game accessible to play. It's not intended to be an obscure fighting game with a 50 input long combo chain, personally I appreciated the fact that my moveset was consistent and easy to memorize as it allowed me to focus more of my energy on strategizing about my fights, managing multiple enemies, being aware of incoming projectile attacks, etc.

I can agree that by the end of the game I would have appreciated a deeper variety of enemies and while puzzles were simple the idea of throwing solution mechanics far afield would honestly not work very well. If you're missing something, knowing that you don't have to search a 3 square kilometer area to find it is reassuring and encourages you to actually cojntinue searching for the thing you're missing rather than giving up and moving on.

Your final criticism reads in part as a repetition of the early critcism of enemy variety which does wear somewhat thin by the end of the game.
 

everyer

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,242
It's not a perfect game. But it's a master piece and sets bars in lots of aspects.

This post is just your own taste.
 
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Sir Guts

Use of alt account
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,480
The only thing I disliked in the game is the mystic gateway other than that everything was fun and gave me one hell of an experience
Also you know there's an amazing invention in the game where you open the map and can see what you're missing? AMAZING RIGHT?!
Please don't talk about enemies variety when you're trying to lowkey slide BotW in this thread. Please?
So your main criticism is that GoW is not BotW?
Yes, thats how it looks to me....
 

Deleted member 34714

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,617
The gear stats and upgrades come into play for the optional bosses or side content. If you strayed once from the main story, you'd know that enemies don't scale. The way you complain about it makes it seem like you just rush through story, you're missing out. Some of the side quests are pretty beefy.
 

Alby_Duckett

Member
Oct 27, 2017
75
For me it's a very solid 8/10, would've been a 9 if the second half didn't have as much backtracking and better variety of enemies. It just got a tad repetitive for me and the sense of wonder was gone. Additionally. I thought some story elements were a bit off in the latter parts of the game, but I appreciated the attempt to be a bit more mature and nuanced.
 

Terraforce

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
18,945
I disagree with most of the things mentioned in the OP, but the loot situation was pretty bad imo. That's one of the very few things I'd take in the original trilogy over this game. A simple stat progression system like the already established skill tree would have worked so much better. As is, I didn't really care about the different weapon and armor upgrades.

Otherwise, I couldn't disagree more with your other points. Just a few of my personal takes on the game:

I'm not sure how skills feel the same merely because they have the same input. Identical inputs but different reciprocating actions exists for a vast majority of those kinds of skills in games. That complaint sounds like saying all characters in fighting games have "mostly the same effect" because they have the same inputs, which is a silly remark. Not sure how a ranged beam attack acts the same as a violent slam to the ground. Each type of enemy had a rhythm you had to get used to, but the variety never made it feel repetitive. Puzzles were basic but definitely not all easy, and couldn't disagree more about "cheesing" fights with the axe and rage. Rage is incredibly limited, so it's not as if you can just spam it. And throwing the axe isn't the best way to optimize damage output at all.
 

Kalamoj

Member
Oct 28, 2017
532
Europe
I don't think the chests/collectibles are interrupting the flow. Exploration/puzzle solving and fighting are equally important in the game.
I agree with the stats though, there are too many of them.
 

Deleted member 2321

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,555
Agree with all of your points. Especially the sort of old fashioned level design.

The poison buckets for example are really old school.

Overall it's a really good game, but also a deeply flawed one.

Most systems only come together when you go for the platinum and start min maxing everything.
Before that you collect a million "something of somethings" that are completely irrelevant and meaningless to you and the progression of the game.

EDIT:

I also think it´s a very boring story that is told exceptionally well.

Niflheim and Muspelheim are really undercooked.


When the credits rolled this was a 7/10 for me.

After doing everything and getting the Plat it became a 8/10.
 
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Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
for me its a 9.5 game .my only issues is that i wanted to see more variety boss fights(frankly i havent finished the game yet) but there were too many reskined trolls upto this point. hopefully they will address this for sequal
 

Anti

Banned
Nov 22, 2017
2,972
Australia
I don't share your second point at all. People are able to face enemies who are 3/4 leves above you at various points in the game.

The valkyries, the travellers and othera can be found relatively early in the game. If you tackle them instead of focusing in the maint story when you return to the story you will be more powerful than the enemies you find down the path.

And if you try and complete the optional realms before ending the game you will definitely feel overpowered.
 

Darkwing-Buck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,540
Los Angeles, CA
I respect the fact that they were going for a smaller scale (at least for gow's standards) but I hated the boss/enemy variety.

Also I almost fell asleep fighting that final boss.
 

Amaterasu

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,310
You make some good points, and I have a few other gripes that kept me from joining in the celebration.
Enemy variety drops off a cliff at a certain point.
Even halfway through the game I still found myself occasionally pressing the wrong button. Controls are kind of all over the place.
Fast Travel system is one of the worst I've seen. I have to imagine it's hiding a load time, but I was never sure if I had to run around the tree or not.
XP and Money are thrown at you so much that it becomes trivial halfway through the game.
Bosses were easier than normal groups of mobs most of the time outside of the Valkyries. Baldur did so little damage to me wearing the Niflheim armor that I barely had to try and still beat him my first time.
Speaking of, Niflheim and Muspelheim really kill the pacing.
Most of the crafting gear early on is completely useless as you'll find better before you can craft the second piece of a set.

But yeah, this thread probably won't end well because it's still celebration time.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I don't agree with the ops critiques in regards to the stat progression or equipment. Those were surprisingly well done for a game that I had no idea would even include them. Loot was very worthwhile and finding the equipment along with the runes was rewarding.

I'd say one of the few flaws I found with the game as a whole was its reuse of the big ogre enemies. There were at least two of those fights that I felt could've been a new type of enemy. For that matter, enemy variety throughout the game was slightly lacking.

I do agree with the level design causing some head scratching oddities in regards to not being able to jump down or up to certain obstacles. It felt vey much like Resident Evil 4s traversal which isn't one of that games strong points.
 

Exentryk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,238
I agree on the collectibles being overused which at times was to the detriment of the pacing. The Enchantment and Armor UI wasn't very intuitive either. The stat progression though is something I wanted them to go even deeper, like full on builds and all that haha. I understand this isn't an RPG though.

- The special abilities were all ... activated by the exact same inputs (L1 + R1, L1 + R2 or L1 + O).

Nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's the better way of doing it rather than have a twenty button brutality to execute a move.

- The puzzles were mostly very simple and repetitive, particularly the ones involving the blue runes to unlock yet another chest. Most of the required item to "solve" a puzzle were merely 50 meters away from its intended use.
Yeah, stuff did get repetitive, but you know what would have made it worse? If you had to go far away to find the item required solve a puzzle, making it even more tedious. So I'm glad the puzzles were quick and efficient.

- The journey was a bit too long given the limited diversity of gameplay situations. The fact the main goal of the journey was not that stimulating to me, not helped by the various setbacks (sometimes very stupid) encountered time and time again.

Agreed. But overall, I still enjoyed the game a lot.
 

behOemoth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,753
There are way to many enemies who can oneshot you if you go the optional routes. So, the gear plays a bigger role in that part. The optional quests like setting free the dragons, doing the favors for the dwarves and beating the Valkyries add many things to the lore and are challenging. They are fun to play.
 

Waxy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
440
Enemy and boss variety was seriously my only complaint. I understand it wasn't a priority for the team, but I can't help looking at how Souls for example gives you unique enemies and tons of bosses on every game, with new enemies every time you reach a new area. But fodder enemies were never the forte of God of War so I can live with that. Just give me more bosses next time.
I would probably say thats my biggest complaint right now as well, there just isn't that much variety when it comes to the bosses. Thankfully they are all fun for the most part and the gameplay is fantastic so its not that major. But I certainly hope the sequel adds more types of bosses.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,678
I'm sorry, but as someone who sacrificed other stats to min-max my cooldown so I could spam rune attacks every 10-20 seconds, the stat system is functional and flexible enough to suit your own playstyle. Yeah you can ignore it and finish the game without issues, but that doesn't make it useless. Its a much bigger improvement over previous games because it is "in addition" to weapon and health upgrades.
 

Black Chamber

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,811
United States
- The bestiary was pretty limited with lots of identical looking enemies with different color schemes. The tactic to defeat bigger enemies was mostly always the same.
This.

.

[That last indicator is a "." with an underline under it to emphasize how seriously that error in judgment took me out of the total experience of the game. Every time I encountered yet another palette-swapped troll or draugr - it was always of the sadly redundant ice, fire, or lightning etc. version of all of the other enemies I've already seen - over and over again. It ruined my experience so much, to the extent that I was only 8 hours from the game's completion and I've yet to finish it.]

Seriously, with over 5 years of game development time, they couldn't come up with more enemy types and bosses?!? While I love the game to an extent, Cory Barlog [who did God of War II, with its ridiculously numerous boss battles] couldn't top that in terms of variety??
 
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Ahti

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 6, 2017
9,360
"old fashioned level design"

Honestly, I prefer a videogame that feels like a videogame. My problem with a lot of storydriven AAA-productions is, that gameplay is kind of pared back, stripped-down, to make the experience more immersive, I guess. GOW with its great writing and atmospheric setpieces also delivers an immersive experience and it shows that a game does not need to sacrifice gameplay to achieve this goal.
 
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Anti

Banned
Nov 22, 2017
2,972
Australia
Fast Travel system is one of the worst I've seen. I have to imagine it's hiding a load time

It does it and it is pretty obvious, it is only a circular road that will place a door in certain fixed positions depending on the characters current position when it finish loading the destination.

I do prefer this than a loading screen tbh.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
I enjoyed my time with it, but the game is as shallow as can be. I really don't think the game needed RPG elements, they bog down the game a lot and they just don't matter. They're there but I never paid much attention to it and did just fine. For the record I played on normal.

Also the "puzzles" in this game are a joke. It's always the same thing and there's hardly any variation. People compare the game to Darksiders or even Zelda, but to me it's more like a Lego game. Imagine if the (completely optional) Korok puzzles were all the puzzles there were in BotW, people would go nuts, but that's exactly what we have in GoW: the same puzzles over and over again and not very good ones at that.

The level design is also very basic. I like that it gets some inspiration from Dark Souls, but not once do the levels interconnect in interesting ways. It all feels very flat too; almost no verticality and the verticality there is, is relegated to painted walls you can arbitrarily climb without much actual player input.

I was never that engaged by the gameplay and just put myself on auto-pilot for most of it.
 

silva1991

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,542
2) The needless stat system aspect.

That was my opinion about Nioh and I'll say it about GoW too.

none of them needed to have stats, RPG elements and grind what so ever.

The fact one of the world is basically a more repetitive and worse chalice dungeon to grind for higher stat was so annoying.

I'll add that I'm very disappointed with the lack of boss fights. trolls reskins just were never gonna cut it.
 

Bran Van

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,540
I loved collecting. It's a cheap thrill but I never got bored of wandering off the path a little and getting rewarded for it. It's always disappointing in some games where it looks like you can explore somewhere and it just ends up a dead end or empty

I am in two minds about introducing more openness and flexibility with exploration. It could add some things but structure also adds a lot. The more open you go, the more you're reliant on markers, missions etc. The less control available in designing encounters on specific level designs
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
The side quests are lame.

The game had few side quests and i was expecting various things to do with a backstory, not only: "Go collect X things", "Go kill X enemies", "Go destroy this to free this".
 

Solace

Dog's Best Friend
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,920
God of war is one the greatest game of all time. But it's not perfect. There are so many flaws with this game that could be fixed But fuck this criticism about linearity. Linear games are what that defined gaming so far. Go ahead, look for any top 10 games of all time and see how many of them are linear single player game. Hell let me know what is your top 10 games of all time and we'll see about that. I can't wait for the day when shallow stupid open world games aren't the trend anymore. Then maybe people will stop asking for every game to be open-world, fully interactive or whatever.
 

EndlessNever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,890
The bosses fall into quantity over quality. And my other issue is when the enemy is stunned and you can do that finisher, it's always the exact same one per enemy the whole game.

Gets a bit tiring.
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
I like that the store will have Loot you didn't pick up in it. I found the stat system to be really well done but it's only needed for the optional bosses. Main story you can kind of progress through it normally without having to grind for a bit more upgrades which is fine.
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
The side quests are lame.

The game had few side quests and i was expecting various things to do with a backstory, not only: "Go collect X things", "Go kill X enemies", "Go destroy this to free this".
A lot of them did have back story though? The dwarves armor upgrade side quest was so fucking good.